[xj-s] XJS pulled to the right and nearly killed me

XJ-S
21

In reply to a message from Jason D. Korke sent Fri 9 Aug 2002:

Hi jason

I’m hanging on every word you were going to say!

Were you about to tell us your own garage or even yourself only
tops up the brake fluid instead of changing the lot!

There’s no shame jason, I think we have all been there at
sometime in our motoring ‘nine lives’

I had my first car for five years and never checked a thing until
it went wrong but that was pre ABS which could be better spelt
pre DOA or (dead on arrival!)–
The original message included these comments:

Yipes! I stopped reading at this point, just in case.

–
willpower
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

// please trim quoted text to context only

22

Living in Sweden (where there’s a lot of snow and ice), I wouldn’t buy a
new car without ABS if I were going to use it in the winter.
I absolutely love the way ABS works in snow, but even more so on ice or
partially icy roads.

I believe ABS saves people on ice, but on dry roads I don’t think it
helps out that much, and then the complexity of ABS might be a problem.
I have absolutely no basis on studies that I can quote on this, but that
doesn’t stop me :wink: I have my own experience driving ABS and non-ABS on
ice and snow. To each his own i suppose…

All this considered, I wouldn’t mind buying a XJ-S without ABS, since I
would only use it in the summer…

I’d be really interested in looking in to the reports you talked about
below though. Any references?

Regards,

Hans

[snip]

Yeah, there are hypothetical situations where ABS can save your ass –
but that’s balanced against hypothetical situations in which an ABS
failure can kill you. Reports say statistically ABS doesn’t save
lives, tentatively explained that drivers who know how to use brakes
don’t need it and get confused when using it. Toss in the
significant difference in maintenance costs plus the fact that I HATE
the way ABS works in snow, and I’ll pass.

// please trim quoted text to context onlyOn Fri, 2002-08-09 at 01:04, Kirbert wrote:

23

In reply to a message from Richard Drozdowski sent Thu 8 Aug 2002:

Hi Richard and thank you for replying.

I always thought the XJS was one of the safest cars that money
could buy but now I am not so sure.

Well I can say that after me hitting a guardrail at the race track at about
90 MPH, the damage was minimal and the frame stayed straight. It was a
glancing blow to the Armco, but the car held up very well. I was cacooned in
a mass of metal!

The car seemed to be safe, I hope I never find out how much safer it could
be.

Good luck, get the brakes fixed ASAP.

Charles

// please trim quoted text to context only

24

In reply to a message from Charles Maraia sent Fri 9 Aug 2002:

Hi Charles

I can imagine the XJS saved you very well as jags are built like
tanks but you were all going in the same direction.

But just try and imagine (or maybe you better not) that you touch
your brakes and your jag changes lanes into the path of an
oncoming car doing 60mph.

It happens as quickly as that!

I almost feel like selling or even scrapping this car but then
you could get killed by just crossing the road, especially if
someones jag was coming sideways at you!.–
willpower
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

// please trim quoted text to context only

25

Once you sort out the brake problem, it is good practise to test it once in
a while, big open space, no other traffic, accelerate and then stamp on the
stop pedal. If the system works, the wheels should not lock up, and you’ll
feel a pulsing through the car.

ATB

Nigel
XJS Conv.4.0 1993

Alternately, you can come to Edmonton between October and March.
Lots of opportunity to flush the system driving in the snow!

My ABS will never fail from lack of use.

Richard Drozdowski
1992 XJS

// please trim quoted text to context only

26

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Fri 9 Aug 2002:

Hi Kirbert

I could not agree more with what you are saying! this ABS system
in my book is a ‘death trap’!

***I think you missed Kirbert’s point. Its not THIS ABS system
that’s the problem. Its the entire concept that’s flawed.

When it works, it increases stopping distance in poor weather.
Which, of course, is when stopping is most difficult.

When it doesn’t work it becomes apparent that they have installed
something between the driver and the brakes…a bad idea.

Richard Drozdowski
1992 XJS

// please trim quoted text to context onlyFrom: willpower gotmail2uk@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [xj-s] XJS pulled to the right and nearly killed me

27

In reply to a message from Richard Drozdowski sent Fri 9 Aug 2002:

Hi richard
Yes you are quite right that went over my head, I think I was too
busy with trying to solve the problem that I have.

But now you come to mention it you are right, as even the test in
my garden took me much longer to stop than if the anchors had
gone down in the normal way.

so thanks for that
john–
The original message included these comments:

something between the driver and the brakes…a bad idea.

–
willpower
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

// please trim quoted text to context only

28

willpower wrote:

But just try and imagine (or maybe you better not) that you touch
your brakes and your jag changes lanes into the path of an
oncoming car doing 60mph.

It happens as quickly as that!

Let me second this post. The ABS malfunction under discussion is so violent
that when it occurs, even if you know it is going to happen, it is almost
impossible to keep the car out of the next lane or the ditch.

A few years ago I was hired to testify in federal court about this ABS
malfunction, in a case where someone had crossed the centerline and hit
another car, killing its driver. It can happen!

But, to criticize Jaguar about this is missing the point. In my experience,
the problem occurs because the recommended procedure for brake pad
replacement is not followed.

Best regards,

Gregory Wells 800-331-2193 x103
Coventry West, Inc. - Atlanta, GA www.coventrywest.com
New, Rebuilt, and Used Jaguar & Land-Rover Parts

// please trim quoted text to context only

29

In the late 80s when ABS really took off, I was on contract for the Denver
Police creating video training. One of the programs we did was on ABS where
identical cruisers with and without ABS were taken through their track both
by normal officers as well as driving instructors and a couple of pro-racing
drivers. In every case, and I mean EVERY case and situation, regardless of
driver, the ABS equipped cars performed better. They stopped shorter (a lot
shorter for less trained drivers but significantly shorter even for the
pros), took corners faster by allowing greater control and later braking at
points where the “normal” cars simply broke lose and headed for the hay
bales, and ABS provided that better performance on all surfaces, not just
the marginal ones.

In order to have a license to drive the police cars I had to take their
driving course including the high speed portion which was a VERY different
than my recollection of my old club-racing courses. In racing I was taught
to use the whole road and to do so SMOOOOOOTHLY making Apex turns, etc. On
the police course, where the anticipated driving was in traffic where lane
discipline was critical, the approach was very, very different. It was a
far more “brutal” approach and really taxed the vehicles’ brakes and
suspension as they would charge a corner, drop anchor to a speed that let
them take the corner without crowding lanes, then hammer it. The difference
in driving a car with ABS and one without was startling under those
conditions. It made me a convert to ABS.

My Jags do not have ABS but I am nevertheless a big believer in it and would
happily have it on any car I had. That experience was on police equiped
interceptor cars: light bodies, big engines, beefed up suspension, basically
the closest to a sports car you could make a Detroit land yacht such as an
Impala or Crown Vic, but I have to believe it would be borne out by similar
experiements with any car.

David------------
87 XJ6 SIII VDP 4.2
88 xj-sc / LT1 / Vortech
89 Land Cruiser

// please trim quoted text to context only

30

Nigel wrote:

Once you sort out the brake problem, it is good practise to test it
once in a while, big open space, no other traffic, accelerate and then
stamp on the stop pedal. If the system works, the wheels should not
lock up, and you’ll feel a pulsing through the car.

That pulsing you feel is the wheels locking up. Hence, I highly
recommend this test be done at least once a month to “exercise” the
ABS valves – but on a dirt or gravel road to minimize wear on your
tires.

– Kirbert

// please trim quoted text to context only

31

I thought that the pulsing was normal for ABS systems. I’ve had that with
all my ABS equipped cars, and I’ve read it in a number of descriptions about
how ABS works.

Of course, the pulsing should only happen when the brake pedal is stomped
on, where standard brakes would have locked up and caused a skid. Of course,
if there is pulsing when lightly applying the pedal, it’s a bad thing, and
usually a sign of warped rotors.

Gary----- Original Message -----

Nigel wrote:

Once you sort out the brake problem, it is good practise to test it
once in a while, big open space, no other traffic, accelerate and then
stamp on the stop pedal. If the system works, the wheels should not
lock up, and you’ll feel a pulsing through the car.

That pulsing you feel is the wheels locking up. Hence, I highly
recommend this test be done at least once a month to “exercise” the
ABS valves – but on a dirt or gravel road to minimize wear on your
tires.

– Kirbert

// please trim quoted text to context only

32

In reply to a message from Gregory Wells sent Fri 9 Aug 2002:

Hi greg
You have got me sweating reading that! the memory is so vivid it
is a nightmare!

I totally agree with you on everything you said, as if I had
followed procedure then it probably would not have happened but
at least everyone is now well aware what can happen and will now
no doubt be taking steps to minimise this risk.

The manual I was using didn’t mention any of this, it all seemed
like a bit of a stroll in the park though nearly through the
cemetry in my case!

The worst thing is that in any event this problem could
occur,just over time, you could be driving around for years,
almost overconfident that your jag is a very safe car, then when
you least expect it you are gone!–
The original message included these comments:

A few years ago I was hired to testify in federal court about this ABS

–
willpower
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

// please trim quoted text to context only

33

willpower wrote:

But now you come to mention it you are right, as even the test in my
garden took me much longer to stop than if the anchors had gone down
in the normal way.

That’s my problem with snow. I’m a Floridian, don’t drive in snow
much, but did have one trip in a rental Chevy with ABS that really
turned me off on the idea. The purpose of ABS is to allow the driver
to maintain control in a panic stop, and when it works, it
accomplishes that objective splendidly – including in curves on
mountain roads, in the rain, on icy pavement, etc. However, there
are times you simply want to STOP. In that garden, the fastest way
to stop is to lock 'em up and dig in. Having an ABS system just
means you go zipping across the grass in a perfectly controlled
gradual deceleration. Same thing with snow; the fastest way to stop
is to lock 'em and dig in, but the ABS won’t let you do that, you’ll
be feeling that pulsing pedal as you slide into the car in front of
you in slow motion.

– Kirbert

// please trim quoted text to context only

34

Gregory Wells wrote:

A few years ago I was hired to testify in federal court about this ABS
malfunction, in a case where someone had crossed the centerline and
hit another car, killing its driver. It can happen!

I didn’t read about that case in the paper. Gee, I wonder why not?

But, to criticize Jaguar about this is missing the point. In my
experience, the problem occurs because the recommended procedure for
brake pad replacement is not followed.

Well, someone here reported that the official Jaguar recommended
procedure for brake pad replacement didn’t mention opening the bleed
port first. Or, maybe you meant the jag-lovers.org recommended
procedure!

I suspect that one and all failures can be blamed on maintenance
problems. By definition, actually; whatever goes wrong, if someone
had done something differently, it wouldn’t have gone wrong. But
that’s like saying “If I hadn’t gone to the store yesterday, I
wouldn’t have gotten into that accident.”

The simple fact is, having ABS makes it POSSIBLE for problems like
this to occur. And even if proper pad replacement procedures make it
less likely, it’s STILL possible that something else will cause it –
a defective part, simple old age, whatever.

The only accident I’ve been in in the last 25 years was hitting a
deer. It seems to me that my philosophy of accident avoidance is
working pretty well. And I’ve never owned a car with ABS; instead,
if I’m in a situation where braking may cause a slide or a loss of
control, I drive carefully to avoid such results. The LAST thing I
need, thank you, is a system built into my car that may CAUSE me to
have an accident.

– Kirbert

// please trim quoted text to context only

35

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Fri 9 Aug 2002:

Hi kirbert

I totally agree with what you are saying and as they don’t make
the XJS anymore it is only a matter of time before through long
term deterioration someone elses car goes wrong ‘Big Time’ like
mine did.

I don’t think it would matter if a Jaguar main dealer serviced it
every year, because sooner or later I believe this problem will
show up and it’s laying in wait to tag you sooner or later.

Although I’m a careful driver or at least I try to be, I am now
thinking of all those times that I have been bombing along a
motorway with big trucks to the left and right of me.

Had I even touched the brakes in that situation I’d be dead or
torn apart in a really horrific accident possibly killing or
maiming other people as well.

If I have an accident caused by my bad driving I could accept it
but to be in a car that has a device which has a FATAL flaw has
really unnerved me.

Do you think it’s possible to retro fit the vacuum servo system
as used on earlier cars? I reckon that the servo unit could be
bought brand new for about �150-�200 and maybe another �150 for
someone to fit it, if I can’t do it myself but would I need a
different master cylinder?

This is a car that you should enjoy driving and not have to worry
that touching the brakes could catapult you to the other side of
the road.

I need to know when I hit those brakes my car is going to stop
(skid marks or not) without any problems and the only thing that
worries me at the present moment is that all the jag lovers who
read these boards do not have a clue what they are in for.

Ok they’ve read all about it and have got the general idea but
being there and living it is a totally different thing, you are
literally gone before you can blink.

I am going back to servo, I’ve had enough of this and if it costs
me �500 then so what.

Any ideas Kirbert, does servo seem a good idea to you?–
willpower
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

// please trim quoted text to context only

36

At 22:29 2002-08-09 +0200, willpower did say:

Do you think it’s possible to retro fit the vacuum servo system
as used on earlier cars? I reckon that the servo unit could be
bought brand new for about �150-�200 and maybe another �150 for
someone to fit it, if I can’t do it myself but would I need a
different master cylinder?

In addition to whether it mechanically could be done (ANYTHING is possible
here if you’re determined), there’s the matter of whether it would be
LEGAL. Would your car pass inspection (which differs from jurisdiction to
jurisdiction)? If you had an accident, fatal or otherwise, (say, just by
coincidence, you had a brake pad that bound up), and the accident
investigation turns up that your car was modified to remove this safety
feature, what sort of result do you figure that might have on the outcome,
and who would get stuck with the liability, even if the modification wasn’t
ultimatley to blame?

This is a car that you should enjoy driving and not have to worry
that touching the brakes could catapult you to the other side of
the road.

I expect that if they’re properly maintained, this isn’t a real risk. Any
braking system which isn’t maintained properly runs the risk of serious
failure.

Heck, all sorts of things can go wrong with a car. Almost 15 years ago, my
then-fiancee was travelling to my home a few days after having had her
transmission (an early-generation FWD GM) serviced at the
dealership. She was late in arriving. Very late. Sometime later, I
received a shaken call from her – she was only about 1/2 mile from my
place, where the front passenger wheel came off the car at a 90’
angle. Seems the shop forgot to put in the cotter locking pin on the bolt
which retains the wheel assembly to the steering linkage, and the bolt
unthreaded. Two minutes earlier, she was shooting down the
freeway. Fortunatley, it came off after she’d come to a stop at a traffic
signal and was just accelerating across the intersection.

ALL the steps of servicing something need to be followed - skipping
loosening and tightening a brake bleeder or installing a cotter pin before
going to lunch - they all can have very significant consequences. An
improperly tuned engine could cause an accident because of a dropout when
you need to accelerate to avoid a collision. Inoperative signal/parking
lamps could cause an accident in rainy weather. Take your pick - there are
all sorts of failures you could succumb to, and at first, not all of them
seem to be safety related.

Any shop which views your car as something just like the Toyota they had in
the service bay before it simply isn’t qualified to work on it – it isn’t
because the Jaguar is some complicated or tempermental beast, but because
it isn’t a Toyota – what you want - and need - is a shop that truely
understands the specific car before working on it.

I need to know when I hit those brakes my car is going to stop
(skid marks or not) without any problems and the only thing that
worries me at the present moment is that all the jag lovers who
read these boards do not have a clue what they are in for.

I’d be considerably less worried about the ones who actually READ these
lists, and consider the many owners who are oblivious to our existance, and
trust that their mechanic is doing the right thing when servicing their car.

Then again, what’s the point in worrying about everything? Make sure YOUR
car is properly serviced, and that the service shop that previously worked
on it is made aware of the significance of the service procedure.

I always advise people to start with as complete a collection of
documentation as you can obtain. Perhaps someone with first-hand
experience with the ABS servicing will kindly edit a user-submitted
addendum to the brake system servicing section, and I can add that to my
documentation errata project?

— http://jaguar.professional.org/
Sean Straw '88 Jaguar XJ-SC 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Black Cat’ 65K
Marin County, California '85 Jaguar XJ-S 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Bad Kitty’ 210K
'69 Buick GranSport 455 V8 324K

// please trim quoted text to context only

37

At 12:26 2002-08-09 +0200, willpower wrote:

The so called specialised mechanic who I trusted to service my
XJS when asked about the brake fluid admitted he only topped it
up as stated on my invoice.

Equally bad is that many shops put their “R&R” guy on this sort of task -
“Remove & Replace” - the guy not qualified to make diagnostic evaluations
or actual component repairs or rebuilds - just unbolt things and bolt on
replacements. He’s the guy making the least amount of money (well, he’s
just above the wage rate of the high school kid that cleans up the
shop). Well, this chap more than likely doesn’t realize (or care) that the
brake bleed procedure is supposed to start with the wheel furthest from the
master cylinder, and progressively work towards it (passenger rear, driver
rear, passenger front, driver front - based on the master cylinder being in
front of the driver).

Knowing what I do know now but did not know before, this invoice
now looks more like a suicide note!

Now the light comes on that many of us don’t necessarily service our own
cars merely on financial grounds, but because we’re individually willing to
read the documentation and heed advice from other owners, rather than just
plodding forward as if it were a throwaway Toyota.

After all, it isn’t your mechanic who needs to entrust his (or his
families) life to your car. You can bet the mechanic is a bit more
meticulous when working on his own car!

— http://jaguar.professional.org/
Sean Straw '88 Jaguar XJ-SC 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Black Cat’ 65K
Marin County, California '85 Jaguar XJ-S 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Bad Kitty’ 210K
'69 Buick GranSport 455 V8 324K

// please trim quoted text to context only

38

In reply to a message from sean.straw%2BJaguar@mail.professional.org sent Fri 9 Aug 2002:

Hi sean thank you for your long and detailed reply many thanks
for taking all that trouble.

There is definately a lot of food for thought in what you say, so
I am going to give it all a long and careful think but my
experience is something that I will never forget so lets just
hope I make the right decision.–
willpower
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

// please trim quoted text to context only

39

Same thing with snow; the fastest way to stop
is to lock 'em and dig in, but the ABS won’t let you do that,

//////////
Well I’m not a Foridian with little experience in the snow. Though I now
live in California I’m from Colorado and have a life time of experience in
the snow and ice and I have to disagree. Locking brakes and digging in is
probably the most dangerous thing you can do becasue it destroys all
possibility of control and steering when the wheels are locked.

If you are driving in such marginal or non-existent traction that you cannot
stop however you need to without locking brakes and are not using chains you
are simply dangerously negligent for yourself and those around you. As the
snow starts to stick if you do not have real honest to goodness snow tires
and continue to believe the nonsense that so-called mud-and-snow tires are
real snow tires you are delusional. If you believe that radial tires
substitute for snow tires as salesmen used to assert, you are an accident
waiting to happen. If you have the right tires and/or chains then ABS will
still stop you better than non-ABS; if you do not, non-ABS will not keep you
out of trouble but only let you slide faster into trouble with ZERO control.
That can be a truly focussing problem when the direction of slide is…over
the edge.

Often an automatic tranny creates problem because it is still trying to
drive the wheels as you are trying to stop and a deceleration slide at a
stop sign or intersection can be stopped immediately by getting the car into
neutral.

One thing I definitely agree on: accidents are mostly caused by people
overdriving the conditions and their car’s equipment. The mountain roads
are littered every winter by surprised skiers off in the ditch who cannot
figure out why their M&S tires simply skidded off the road. Duh.

If poor maintenance leads to equipment failure, just because that type of
failure is more prevalent in one car or another, does not mean the equipment
was at fault. My Land Cruiser, without ABS exhibited exactly the same
sudden lurch upon braking and virtually launched me into a curb the first
time it happened. The cause was a pad that had come loose and dug into the
rotor. That happened in the precise way it did because of disk brakes. But
the cause was not disk brakes nor did it make disk brakes per se dangerous,
it was my failure of maintenance.

Driving in marginal traction conditions is not instinctive; males are not
genetically pre-programmed to be good drivers in the snow and ice or on
loose surfaces. It is a whole new world of danger that needs to be learned
from a good teacher.

David--------------------------
@David_King
87 XJ6 VDP
88 XJ-SC / LT1
89 Land Cruiser

// please trim quoted text to context only

40

In reply to a message from Charles Maraia sent Fri 9 Aug 2002:

Hi Charles

I can imagine the XJS saved you very well as jags are built like
tanks but you were all going in the same direction.

But just try and imagine (or maybe you better not) that you touch
your brakes and your jag changes lanes into the path of an
oncoming car doing 60mph.

It happens as quickly as that!

I almost feel like selling or even scrapping this car but then
you could get killed by just crossing the road, especially if
someones jag was coming sideways at you!.

willpower

Will,

I just had the same happen to me with my '91 Classic with ABS. It pulled
hard to the right. Of course I had my hands firmly on the wheel, so I was
able to control the car easily. It’s funny that it happend to me today, out
of the blue. After driving for a bit, it went away. It’s happened before to,
but I’ve usually been in control.

Maybe this is a lesson to you in the UK and Oz. Start driving on the right
side of the road and it wouldn’t be as dangerous! No oncoming traffic, just
parked cars and such…After that, maybe the UK will start using the Euro?
:wink:

Charles

// please trim quoted text to context only