[xj] Starter Solenoid - Series 3 XJ6

XJ
1

I’ve been out working in the shop this evening, cleaning up,
testing parts, etc.
I’ve been tearing down an 85 XJ6, and remembered that the starter
never would turn the car over. It was past saving, so it turned
into a parts car.
But, after I removed the starter, I decided to test it to see what
was going on.
Correct me if I’m wrong, these are just my observations:

  1. Large braded cable comes off the battery post, so it will always
    have power on it.
  2. Red/White wire engages starter when the key is turned, operating
    from the starter relay.
  3. Both the large braded cable and the red/white wire need to be
    powered to engage the starter.

Questions:
On the starter that came out of the parts 85, having power to both
the cable and the wire at the same time made the ground very hot.
The starter would sometimes engage, but mostly smoke and have
electrical fire smell. If the Red/White wire was connected to power
and the post (bolt) next to the large braded cable was connected to
power the starter would engage. —Does that mean Bad starter
solenoid???
What are the extra pins on the starter solenoid for? (one small one
next to the pin the Red/White connects to) and (one next to the
braded cable).

Thanks
David–
69 XJ6, 75 XJ12, 84 XJ6, Bunches of parts cars
Rockwell, NC, United States
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2

DavidBoger wrote:

But, after I removed the starter, I decided to test it to see what
was going on.
Correct me if I’m wrong, these are just my observations:

  1. Large braded cable comes off the battery post, so it will always
    have power on it.
  2. Red/White wire engages starter when the key is turned, operating
    from the starter relay.
  3. Both the large braded cable and the red/white wire need to be
    powered to engage the starter.

I don’t like your ‘braided cable’, David - powered cables are never
visibly braided, they are very well insulated. Braided, uninsulated
cables are invariably ground connections…

To recapitulate starter/starter solenoid connections; the solenoid is
connected to the battery ‘+’ by a heavy cable. Another, heavy,
connection on the solenoid is connected to the starter itself. When the
solenoid is activated from the starter solenoid relay the solenoid
simply shorts the two cables together.

Ground is provided by the body of the starter, being bolted to the
engine which is connected by a braided cable, a ground strap, to the car
chassis, which is then connected to the battery ‘-’ by a short cable…

The red/white wire from the starter relay is connected to a, usually
smaller, connector on the starter solenoid. So when the relay is
activated by the ignition key the solenoid is activated, slams the
starter pinion into the ring gear, while at the same time the internal
contact in the solenoid connects the battery to the starter itself…

Testing the starter/solenoid combo out of the car you first connect the
starter body to battery ‘-’. Then with another cable connected to
battery ‘+’ you touch one of the solenoid connections at a time. One
will do nothing, one will run the starter, and one will just activate
the solenoid with no further reaction. The latter is the red/white
connector for the starter relay…

In situ; powered cables are applied to the starter solenoid’s contacts -
ground, battery ‘-’, in whatever form is applied only to the starter
body…so…?

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)>Questions:

On the starter that came out of the parts 85, having power to both
the cable and the wire at the same time made the ground very hot.
The starter would sometimes engage, but mostly smoke and have
electrical fire smell. If the Red/White wire was connected to power
and the post (bolt) next to the large braded cable was connected to
power the starter would engage. —Does that mean Bad starter
solenoid???
What are the extra pins on the starter solenoid for? (one small one
next to the pin the Red/White connects to) and (one next to the
braded cable).

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3

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Sat 10 May 2008:

Thank you, Frank…

Sounds like my test was pretty close to being correct. My
description (terminology) of what I had done wasn’t.

The cable was the heavy cable from the battery +, not ‘‘braded’’ as
such.
I did have the ground from the battery ‘’-’’ to the starter body.

When touching the battery lead ‘’+’’ to the connection where the
red/white goes, there was a little movement.
When touching the battery lead ‘’+’’ to the connection where the
heavy cable goes, nothing happened.
When touching the battery lead ‘’+’’ to the connection (bolt) next to
the heavy cable, the starter engaged fast…

But, when connecting the ground to the body of the starter, the
battery ‘’+’’ to the heavy cable, and then touching the red/white
wire to the battery ‘’+’’ at the same time, the ground started
smoking and nothing engaged.

Same test done on another starter that I had, and the starter
engaged when ground applied to starter body, and power applied to
both heavy cable and red/white wire at the same time.

Does that point to a bad solenoid?

Thanks again
David–
The original message included these comments:

Testing the starter/solenoid combo out of the car you first connect the
starter body to battery ‘-’. Then with another cable connected to
battery ‘+’ you touch one of the solenoid connections at a time. One
will do nothing, one will run the starter, and one will just activate
the solenoid with no further reaction. The latter is the red/white
connector for the starter relay…
Frank

–
69 XJ6, 75 XJ12, 84 XJ6, Bunches of parts cars
Rockwell, NC, United States
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4

In reply to a message from DavidBoger sent Sat 10 May 2008:

Sounds like it to me, David. All the motor itself can do is
run when you energize the stud that connects it electrically
to the solenoid, which it did. The solenoid problem could
be a short or it could be mechanical–if it doesn’t ‘‘pull
in’’ properly, it remains energized via it’s pull-in
windings, which draw a lot of current and will quickly
overheat. If it successfully pulls in, it switches itself
to the ‘‘hold’’ winding which draws much less. The circuit
for this on solenoids I’ve seen is pretty ingenious. The
red/white connection feeds both solenoid coils–the other
end of the hold winding is grounded, while the other end of
the pull in winding is grounded through the starter motor
windings, which have very low resistance. When the solenoid
pulls in, the starter winding is connected to 12 V–meaning
that both ends of the solenoid pull in winding are now 12 V,
or zero volts across it. So it pulls in with both windings,
then switches to one if and only if the solenoid has done
its job.–
The original message included these comments:

Does that point to a bad solenoid?

–
Bob Wilkinson, 72 XJ6
Saint Louis, MO, United States
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5

In reply to a message from DavidBoger sent Sat 10 May 2008:

I really wouldn’t like to say. I must have tested thousands of
starters but can’t point at a fault from your test results.

‘’ I did have the ground from the battery ‘’-’’ to the starter
body.
When touching the battery lead ‘’+’’ to the connection where the
red/white goes, there was a little movement.’’

The pinion should have moved forward, quite often turning slowly.
The ‘‘little movement’’ was probably the hold in winding being
energised, but the pull in winding should have also been energised,
which would suggest the pull in circuit (which includes the motor
as Robert explained) is open-circuit.

‘‘When touching the battery lead ‘’+’’ to the connection where the
heavy cable goes, nothing happened.’’

Quite correct. The solenoid isn’t energised so if anything HAD
happened it would be a fault.

‘‘When touching the battery lead ‘’+’’ to the connection (bolt)
next to the heavy cable, the starter engaged fast…’’

And so it will do. By ‘‘engaged’’ I assume you mean ‘‘turned’’.
You’re by-passing the solenoid and supplying the motor direct. The
fact that it runs ok suggests the motor itself is not the cause of
the apparent loss of the solenoid pull-in winding.

‘‘But, when connecting the ground to the body of the starter, the
battery ‘’+’’ to the heavy cable, and then touching the red/white
wire to the battery ‘’+’’ at the same time, the ground started
smoking and nothing engaged. ‘’

And there you have me stumped. The ‘‘ground started smoking’’
suggests there is a lot of current going somewhere. We know the
motor is ok because you had it running when it was fed direct.
There is some doubt about the solenoid pull-in windings, but if
they were burnt out or short circuit or shorted to earth and
drawing enough current to make the ground connection smoke you
would have blown the terminal off when you connected power to it
doing the test that gave ‘‘a little movement’’. If the pull-in
windings are open circuit you should have had just that small
movement at the pinion and very little current drawn.

Leave the main battery connection disconnected. Ground the body.
feed the small solenoid operating terminal. If you just get a small
movement of the pinion connect your ground cable to the motor
supply terminal on the solenoid and once again feed the solenoid
supply terminal. If you still just get a small movement on the
pinion the solenoid is faulty. If the pinion pulls forward as
normal the starter is faulty.
Doesn’t explain the smoking connection though. Unless it was just
a very bad connection.

Dave–
Dave Collishaw '79 S2 Daimler Sov '92 xj40
Peterborough, United Kingdom
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6

DavidBoger wrote:

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Sat 10 May 2008:

Thank you, Frank…

Sounds like my test was pretty close to being correct. My
description (terminology) of what I had done wasn’t.

The cable was the heavy cable from the battery +, not ‘‘braded’’ as
such.
I did have the ground from the battery ‘’-’’ to the starter body.

When touching the battery lead ‘’+’’ to the connection where the
red/white goes, there was a little movement.
When touching the battery lead ‘’+’’ to the connection where the
heavy cable goes, nothing happened.
When touching the battery lead ‘’+’’ to the connection (bolt) next to
the heavy cable, the starter engaged fast…

But, when connecting the ground to the body of the starter, the
battery ‘’+’’ to the heavy cable, and then touching the red/white
wire to the battery ‘’+’’ at the same time, the ground started
smoking and nothing engaged.

Same test done on another starter that I had, and the starter
engaged when ground applied to starter body, and power applied to
both heavy cable and red/white wire at the same time.

Does that point to a bad solenoid?

I’d say so, David - tests seem correct enough…

Assuming three connections on the solenoid, two ‘big’ ones to the
starter itself and the battery respectively. Then the third one usually
smaller, is the one to the starter relay. If the solenoid doesn’t react
when this is wire is connected the solenoid certainly doesn’t function.
Activating the solenoid this way is independant on the other connections…

…and shouldn’t cause any ground smoking anyway - smoking would
indicate that a heavy current is drawn - or that the ground connection
was less than perfect. But as the solenoid didn’t operate no power could
get to the starter itself - implying that the heavy current may be from
a shorted solenoid…?

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)===================================================
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7

In reply to a message from DavidBoger sent Sat 10 May 2008:

David

Don’t know if it will help but I posted some pics of the inside of
the solenoid when I dismatled mine a little while ago. It’s really
quite crude, see here:
http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1200239624

As Dave has said the pull-in winding and the hold-in can create
some interesting effects, partuclarly when the connections are a
bit iffy.–
The original message included these comments:

Does that point to a bad solenoid?

–
al mclean '93 XJS 4.0 - '84 4.2 Daimler - '84 DD6
Telford, United Kingdom
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8

In reply to a message from almcl sent Sun 11 May 2008:

David:

looks like a connections issue to me.

  1. The solenoid to starter lug looks fairly corroded. But, may not
    be the prime issue.

  2. Agree, smoking ground is a bad connection. But, it may also mean
    a bad cable. They may look good, but have internal corrosion
    (resistance) and get hot when current is applied.

  3. Those brass connecting contacts look brutal. But, I have seen
    worse that work. Cleaning them up would likely help.

  4. I can’t see what difference the roration of the plunger into the
    solenoid would make.

  5. A mechanical issue in the pinion movement would cause resistance
    that would be seen in the weakest connection.

  6. Probably unkilely, but a dead or shorted spot in the motor might
    cause this behavior at times, but not always.

I think application of the Jaguae mantra would return that unhit to
service.

Carl–
The original message included these comments:

Don’t know if it will help but I posted some pics of the inside of
the solenoid when I dismatled mine a little while ago. It’s really
quite crude, see here:
As Dave has said the pull-in winding and the hold-in can create
some interesting effects, partuclarly when the connections are a
bit iffy.

–
Carl Hutchins
Walnut Creek, California, United States
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9

In reply to a message from cadjag sent Mon 12 May 2008:

I just replaced my 84 xj6 4.2 starter and it was a hell of a
job.
My 2 cents: don’t know much about smoking, but the two
push-on connectors on the solenoid were similar in my
original and rebuilt, but somehow the internals got mixed
up- I am guessing in the rebuild process. (at least that
tells me someone took the trouble to take the solenoid apart!)
Specifically, I put the rebuilt in and hooked up the ground
cable and the positive lead lush on connector to the right
male connector.
Nothing happened.
I was anticipating having to remove the starter, but then
though I would switch the positive connector to other male
tab. Damn thing started up great and has worked fine ever since.
So if you are putting on a rebuilt starter, it may have been
rebuilt by the same dipstick that did mine, and God knows
what is going on under the solenoid housing!
good luck
Steve–
needakidney
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