[xj] The Interminable Tire Thread was Jaguar Ride

At this point, when I change shocks, I’ll probably go with the KYB - the
recommendation of Autosport Seattle.

Just don’t be surprised when they are very harsh. They will be.

It may sound like heresy, but switching to an SR-rated minivan tire will
also improve the ride at substantially less cost than the Pirellis.
Minivan
tires are cheap, have plenty of load capacity, and are the same size as
Jaguar tires. Despite the propaganda to the contrary, there isn’t anything
unsafe about running an XJ6 on regular touring tires -

Umm, I would hardly call the manufacturer’s specifications and the learned
advice of professionals propaganda.

You wanna put 'em on your car fine, but bear in mind that by law here in
Pennsylvania that I could bounce your car for state safety inspection if you
did so.

And personally, I think the cars handle like sh*t with S-rated tires. The
way the cars wallow and the tires roll under is just downtight unnerving to
me.

it just means that

you’ll get better ride at some sacrifice in ultimate handling. Few use the
handling anyway and fewer yet are able to run at sustained speeds that
would even require an SR rating.

You know, that’s not entirely the point. These cars are very heavy and the
A,merican car industry has always horribly under-tired their cars. It’s not
just about sustained speeds. It’s also about basic turn-in and load
capacity.

It’s this whole uneducated opinions like this that got us in that trouble
with the exploding tires on SUVs…if they would have put load range C
tires and 44psi in them as they should for a truck, that whole thing never
would have happened, Yet by your standards, that tire was fine.

Costco carries a nice selection and you can outfit all four wheels for
$200.

You have one of the finest big touring cars on the planet and you want to
put cheap tires on it? Why?

Myself, I’m probably stuck with the Pirelli P4000 as a replacement until I
find that cheap set of 16X7" wheels and a way to transport them. Perhaps a
roof rack?

You better not buy 16" wheels if you want cheap tires. I’m not even sure if
you can get cheap 16" tires. Even Detroit has figured out that tires are a
way to improve the handling and safety of real tires. they have a ton of
cars coming out now with H, V, and Z rated, low profile tires.

So do what you likse for your car, just do it in an informed manner and
don’t tell me that my way is propaganda when you’re not speaking from a
proper perspective.

I can support my point by my own state’s laws on safety inspection. And of
course, the manufacturer’s spec.

JebFrom: “Steve Averill”

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Umm, I would hardly call the manufacturer’s specifications
and the learned
advice of professionals propaganda.

Now, Jeb, I think the point here is that if the car isn’t going to be driven
at high speeds, it’s fine to trade speed rating for comfort, if you use
tires which are sufficient for the load
.

It’s this whole uneducated opinions like this that got us in
that trouble
with the exploding tires on SUVs…if they would have put
load range C
tires and 44psi in them as they should for a truck, that
whole thing never
would have happened, Yet by your standards, that tire was fine.

Well, there’s also the issue there of owners not maintaining their vehicles
properly. And not knowing how to drive when a tire blows out. And the
possibility that those tires were defective in some way.

A quick comparison of some Firestone tires with load range C ratings to
their Wilderness AT tires of the same size shows the Wilderness ATs have the
same, or even slightly greater load capacity.

I can support my point by my own state’s laws on safety
inspection. And of
course, the manufacturer’s spec.

Well, the manufacturer’s spec is set for the car’s maximum performance. If
you never drive the car above the speed rating on the tires, there won’t be
a problem.

As for using state laws to support a point, I can’t believe you typed that
with a straight face… :)===================================================
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Oh gawd, I’m letting myself be roped into this debate…I really should
know better.

Jaguar specified v-rated tires because: A) the car was designed for, and is
capable of, high speed, performance-type driving (they gotta equip the car
properly for the design intent…a margin of safety) and B) a premium car
deserves premium tires (how would it look on the spec sheet if prosaic tires
were installed?).

Now, I would never advocate putting a low-quality tire on a Jag XJ6.
However, “low-quality” and “low speed rating” are two different things. Some
very high quality tires have the lower “S” or “T” speed ratings.

Sidewall stiffness and casing strength are a couple of the major factors
with higher-speed-rating tires being stiffer and stronger. This does not
necessarily mean that a lower-speed-rating tire is necessarily unsafe.
However, you may give up some of the handling characteristics (steering
response, for one) and you may sacrifice a certain amount of your safety
margin, especially if you spend hours and hours at high speed (where heat
buildup would enter the picture) or you drive your Jag very aggressively.

The subject of emergency maneuvering will certainly come up. In an
evasive/emergency situation the v-rated tire will certainly respond better
and provide safer handling. This does not imply, however, that a
high-quality S-rated tire will make your car inherently unsafe, or that it
will peel off the rim the first time you have to make a sharp cut at 60 mph
to avoid some idiot on the highway. It won’t. However, the $28.95 el-cheapo
that you bought at K-mart may fly apart for any reason—but, remember,
that’s a low-quality tire.

I say buy a quality tire which fits your driving habits. Remember, though,
that a lower-speed-rating tire will compromise some of the handling traits
and safety margin built into our cars. In other words: make an informed
purchase and be aware of what you are buying and how it will effect your
car.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it ! :slight_smile:

Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USA===================================================
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Let me start off by seconding everything Jeb has said. And not just because
we are both professional mechanics & stick together. It is because our
opinions come from YEARS of experience. If you want a dangerous car, put a
set of cheap tires on your car along with some Dayton 60 spoke wire wheels.
Then go out & drive your Jaguar the way it was designed to handle. Why do
you folks think the factory installed & recommended the tires that came on
the cars? Because they wanted you to spend extra, unnecessary money when it
is time to replace them? Do any of you host a wine tasting then set out some
Gallo jug wine? We drive our families around in these cars & we should put
the best tires on them we can. When the P4000’s wear out on mine, you can
bet your a** that I will put V-rated tires back on. Even though I only have
a 7 mile drive to work there are times when my wife takes my car. She drives
about 100 miles round trip & I don’t want her to have any problems with
cheap, POS tires.

Phil Prince>From: “J&L Autoworks” jlautoworks@earthlink.net

To: “Jag- Lovers” xj@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [xj] The Interminable Tire Thread was Jaguar Ride
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 07:05:06 -0500

From: “Steve Averill”

At this point, when I change shocks, I’ll probably go with the KYB - the
recommendation of Autosport Seattle.

Just don’t be surprised when they are very harsh. They will be.

It may sound like heresy, but switching to an SR-rated minivan tire will
also improve the ride at substantially less cost than the Pirellis.
Minivan
tires are cheap, have plenty of load capacity, and are the same size as
Jaguar tires. Despite the propaganda to the contrary, there isn’t
anything
unsafe about running an XJ6 on regular touring tires -

Umm, I would hardly call the manufacturer’s specifications and the learned
advice of professionals propaganda.

You wanna put 'em on your car fine, but bear in mind that by law here in
Pennsylvania that I could bounce your car for state safety inspection if
you
did so.

And personally, I think the cars handle like sh*t with S-rated tires. The
way the cars wallow and the tires roll under is just downtight unnerving to
me.

it just means that

you’ll get better ride at some sacrifice in ultimate handling. Few use
the
handling anyway and fewer yet are able to run at sustained speeds that
would even require an SR rating.

You know, that’s not entirely the point. These cars are very heavy and the
A,merican car industry has always horribly under-tired their cars. It’s not
just about sustained speeds. It’s also about basic turn-in and load
capacity.

It’s this whole uneducated opinions like this that got us in that trouble
with the exploding tires on SUVs…if they would have put load range C
tires and 44psi in them as they should for a truck, that whole thing never
would have happened, Yet by your standards, that tire was fine.

Costco carries a nice selection and you can outfit all four wheels for
$200.

You have one of the finest big touring cars on the planet and you want to
put cheap tires on it? Why?

Myself, I’m probably stuck with the Pirelli P4000 as a replacement until
I
find that cheap set of 16X7" wheels and a way to transport them. Perhaps
a
roof rack?

You better not buy 16" wheels if you want cheap tires. I’m not even sure if
you can get cheap 16" tires. Even Detroit has figured out that tires are a
way to improve the handling and safety of real tires. they have a ton of
cars coming out now with H, V, and Z rated, low profile tires.

So do what you likse for your car, just do it in an informed manner and
don’t tell me that my way is propaganda when you’re not speaking from a
proper perspective.

I can support my point by my own state’s laws on safety inspection. And of
course, the manufacturer’s spec.

Jeb

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I’ll add my 2-cent experience when trying to get tires at Costco, of any
reasonable rating – they refused to sell me tires rated more than 1 speed
step below the manufacturer’s spec. In fact, even if I’d bought the tires
elsewhere, they wouldn’t install them. This is a federal requirement.

Of course, I was after bigger tires (225/70/15). They didn’t have them and
couldn’t order them in the brand I wanted, but they would install them, if
they met the spec range, so I got 225/70/15 Goodrich T/As from Tirerack for
our SII and took 'em and the wheels right over to Costco – they have good
balancers, by the way.–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Phil prince wrote:

Let me start off by seconding everything Jeb has said. And not just because
we are both professional mechanics & stick together. It is because our
opinions come from YEARS of experience. If you want a dangerous car, put a
set of cheap tires on your car along with some Dayton 60 spoke wire wheels.
Then go out & drive your Jaguar the way it was designed to handle. Why do
you folks think the factory installed & recommended the tires that came on
the cars? Because they wanted you to spend extra, unnecessary money when it
is time to replace them? Do any of you host a wine tasting then set out some
Gallo jug wine? We drive our families around in these cars & we should put
the best tires on them we can. When the P4000’s wear out on mine, you can
bet your a** that I will put V-rated tires back on. Even though I only have
a 7 mile drive to work there are times when my wife takes my car. She drives
about 100 miles round trip & I don’t want her to have any problems with
cheap, POS tires.

Phil Prince
[clip]

===================================================
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Since I am an animal on the road I should not buy El-cheapo!!!

Phil Prince>From: “Doug Dwyer” DWYERD@msn.com

To: “XJ List” xj@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xj] The Interminable Tire Thread was Jaguar Ride
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:53:18 -0800

Oh gawd, I’m letting myself be roped into this debate…I really should
know better.

Jaguar specified v-rated tires because: A) the car was designed for, and is
capable of, high speed, performance-type driving (they gotta equip the car
properly for the design intent…a margin of safety) and B) a premium car
deserves premium tires (how would it look on the spec sheet if prosaic
tires
were installed?).

Now, I would never advocate putting a low-quality tire on a Jag XJ6.
However, “low-quality” and “low speed rating” are two different things.
Some
very high quality tires have the lower “S” or “T” speed ratings.

Sidewall stiffness and casing strength are a couple of the major factors
with higher-speed-rating tires being stiffer and stronger. This does not
necessarily mean that a lower-speed-rating tire is necessarily unsafe.
However, you may give up some of the handling characteristics (steering
response, for one) and you may sacrifice a certain amount of your safety
margin, especially if you spend hours and hours at high speed (where heat
buildup would enter the picture) or you drive your Jag very aggressively.

The subject of emergency maneuvering will certainly come up. In an
evasive/emergency situation the v-rated tire will certainly respond better
and provide safer handling. This does not imply, however, that a
high-quality S-rated tire will make your car inherently unsafe, or that it
will peel off the rim the first time you have to make a sharp cut at 60 mph
to avoid some idiot on the highway. It won’t. However, the $28.95
el-cheapo
that you bought at K-mart may fly apart for any reason—but, remember,
that’s a low-quality tire.

I say buy a quality tire which fits your driving habits. Remember,
though,
that a lower-speed-rating tire will compromise some of the handling traits
and safety margin built into our cars. In other words: make an informed
purchase and be aware of what you are buying and how it will effect your
car.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it ! :slight_smile:

Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USA

===================================================
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OK, in for a penny, in for a pound. I think you and teamed up because you
knew I’d play devil’s advocate just for the sake of a good debate ! You guys
are probably having a good chuckle right about now…

Let me start off by seconding everything Jeb has said. And not just
because
we are both professional mechanics & stick together. It is because our
opinions come from YEARS of experience.

As does mine.

If you want a dangerous car, put a
set of cheap tires on your car along with some Dayton 60 spoke wire
wheels.
Then go out & drive your Jaguar the way it was designed to handle.

Fair enough, assuming everyone drives like you and Jeb. What about someone
who drives their Jag like a little old lady?

We drive our families around in these cars & we should put
the best tires on them we can. When the P4000’s wear out on mine, you can
bet your a** that I will put V-rated tires back on. Even though I only
have
a 7 mile drive to work there are times when my wife takes my car. She
drives
about 100 miles round trip & I don’t want her to have any problems with
cheap, POS tires.

OK, since you insist on v-rated tires, are you saying that anything other
than a v-rated tire is cheap and POS?
I did a little research and here’s some examples, all 215/70x15:

Pirelli P4000 V-rated has a UTQG of 320/AA, the Yokohama Avid T4 (S-rated)
is UTQG 620/AB, the Bridgestone Turanza QL20 (S-rated) UTQG 500/AB, and the
Michelin X-one (S-rated) is UTQG 700/AB. All have the same load rating.

To define the UTQG’s, the numeric portion is treadlife rating, the alpha
designations represent traction rating and temperature rating, respectively.
Clearly, the temp rating is the most obvious difference in the v-rated tire
as far as specs go.

Now, trust me, I fully appreciate the desire to protect loved ones by having
safe tires. But, and be honest now, do you really think you would be putting
them in jeopardy if you selected one of the S-rated examples cited above?
Given your typical 7 mile commute, do think these S-rated tires are actually
sub-standard, unsafe, or “POS” ?

OK, call me reckless, but if my 19 year daughter was driving my Jag with
Michelin X-ones, I really wouldn’t have any problem sleeping at
night…even though they are “only S-rated.”

IOW, too, if speed rating is the be-all and end-all when judging tires. The
venerable P4000, for example, is V-rated, rather inexpensive, and really not
too well liked by most consumers due to belt-shift, lumpy-ness, etc.
Perhaps one would actually be safer with a premium-grade S-rated tire than
they would with a low-grade V-rated tire such as the P4000. Just food for
thought…

Well, Phil, I’m sure you and Jeb have accomplished your mission: “let’s get
Dwyer on his tire-rating soapbox”. My hat’s off to you guys. I fell for it
hook-line-and-sinker ! :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Doug Dwyer----- Original Message -----
From: “Phil prince” philp1313@msn.com

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I stand by my earlier post. Here are facts:

Minivan tires have a maximum load capacity greater than that needed for any
fully laden XJ. The Max load capacity is located on the tire sidewall.
Tires exploding from a recognized design fault are a different issue and I
don’t advise anyone to buy recalled tires. I’ve used minivan tires on our
minivan for over 200K miles without tire failures of any kind - hardly
symptomatic of an “notoriously undertired” vehicle. Using unsafe tires as
OEM on heavier minivans (compared to an XJ) would be suicidal for any
manufacturer.

Vehicle maintenance has nothing to do with tire speed rating. Nor does
driving ability. I’ve NEVER seen data suggesting tire speed rating affects
the chances of an accident or fatality. If Jeb has data, share it.

I run autocross on both SR and ZR rated tires. The time difference is about
a half second on the JCNA slalom course. Hardly the difference between
“sh*t” and “wonderful.” ANY 70 aspect ratio tire will wallow and roll over
in extreme conditions, especially if underinflated. I keep my tires
inflated properly.

As for sidewall stiffness, it is a result of the tiremaker’s objective, NOT
the speed rating. ZR tires do have generally stiffer sidewalls, but it is
perfectly practical to make an SR tire with a stiff sidewall or a ZR tire
with a soft sidewall. It is good marketing to make the ZR tire the
“performance touring” tire and the SR tire the “touring” tire with a ride
emphasis.

My owner’s manual does NOT recommend Pirelli P4000 tires. It recommends
Dunlop ER70-15 tires. VR rated tires, to be specific. It does so because of
the performance CAPABILITY of the car, not because anyone in the US
actually runs the car at speeds well over 100MPH for extended periods of
time. It would be irresponsible for Jaguar to recommend otherwise, as the
XJ is CAPABLE of exceeding the limits of an SR tire. Real cars on regular
roads don’t.

Regarding Pennsylvania statutes, I guess anyone can make a law, but SR
tires are perfectly safe on an XJ6 unless the car will be put to a use
which exceeds its design limits - which can’t legally be done on US public
roads.
-Steve A.
'67 E Type Coupe
'76 XJ6C
'91 XJ40

Jeb writes:
J>> And personally, I think the cars handle like sh*t with S-rated
J>> tires. The way the cars wallow and the tires roll under is just
J>> downtight unnerving to me.

Chuck Renner wrote in response to Jeb:

Now, Jeb, I think the point here is that if the car isn’t going to be driven
at high speeds, it’s fine to trade speed rating for comfort, if you use
tires which are sufficient for the load
.

J>> It’s this whole uneducated opinions like this that got us in that trouble
J>> with the exploding tires on SUVs…if they would have put load range C
J>> tires and 44psi in them as they should for a truck, that whole thing never
J>> would have happened, Yet by your standards, that tire was fine.

Well, there’s also the issue there of owners not maintaining their vehicles
properly. And not knowing how to drive when a tire blows out. And the
possibility that those tires were defective in some way.

J>> I can support my point by my own state’s laws on safety
J>> inspection. And of course, the manufacturer’s spec.===================================================
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Doug Dwyer wrote:

> I say buy a *quality tire* which fits your driving habits. Remember, > though, > that a lower-speed-rating tire will compromise some of the handling > traits > and safety margin built into our cars. In other words: make an > informed > purchase and be aware of what you are buying and how it will effect > your > car. > > That's my story and I'm sticking to it ! :-)

And very rightfully so, Doug!!

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe===================================================
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Doug Dwyer wrote:

OK, since you insist on v-rated tires, are you saying that anything other
than a v-rated tire is cheap and POS?
I did a little research and here’s some examples, all 215/70x15:

Pirelli P4000 V-rated has a UTQG of 320/AA, the Yokohama Avid T4 (S-rated)
is UTQG 620/AB, the Bridgestone Turanza QL20 (S-rated) UTQG 500/AB, and the
Michelin X-one (S-rated) is UTQG 700/AB. All have the same load rating.

Bridgestone Turanzas also come in a ZR form, but I think you made the
point. There are many fine tires out there that are not H, V or Z rated -
many 70 aspect ratio touring tires are made for heavy American cars and are
also designed to give a fine ride. Many of those would work well on a heavy
Jaguar.

OK, call me reckless, but if my 19 year daughter was driving my Jag with
Michelin X-ones, I really wouldn’t have any problem sleeping at
night…even though they are “only S-rated.”

I think I’d have trouble sleeping at night when a 19 year-old daughter was
out late with the Jaguar regardless of what tires happened to be on the car.

IOW, too, if speed rating is the be-all and end-all when judging tires.

A number of years back, Goodyear made a particular point of trying to
convince car owners that speed ratings were irrelevant for vehicles
operated on public roads. There was even a long article to that effect in
Road & Track. They failed and finally gave up and started putting that
all-important rating on their own tires because many assumed Goodyears were
inferior without one. I suspect that Doug and I are up against the same
mindset that Goodyear tried to combat. Logic and facts didn’t help Goodyear
either.
-Steve A.
'67 E Type Coupe
'76 XJ6C
'91 XJ40===================================================
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A number of years back, Goodyear made a particular point of trying to
convince car owners that speed ratings were irrelevant for vehicles
operated on public roads. There was even a long article to that effect in
Road & Track. They failed and finally gave up and started putting that
all-important rating on their own tires because many assumed Goodyears
were
inferior without one. I suspect that Doug and I are up against the same
mindset that Goodyear tried to combat. Logic and facts didn’t help
Goodyear
either.

Well, I’m just going to give up and go away with this whole thing.

I’m tired of being accused of being full of it or dispensing misinformation
because I want to put the best tires that I can on my and my customers’
cars.

I just find it odd that nobody seems to agree with me or Jaguar about
fitting V-rated or better tires to these cars.

JebFrom: “Steve Averill”

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My comments & a question…I get to fling the Jag ( 1977 XJ12 ) often going up the back
way home. I have had Pirelli snows ( the actual size and type spec’ed in the book! ),
Road Handlers , Yokohamas and now trying out Conti’s . the RH’s were a little
understeering ( running 65 A/R tires too! ), the Yokos were firmer but noisier at 70MPH,
the Pirellis were noisiest and also suffered belt shift. Anyone experienced with the
Conti Tourers? Ride has been much the same at 70MPH, handling and noise differs between
each type. With the Poly rack bushings and the alignment done steering is very crisp
using both the Yokos and the Contis at this time. I don’t have to " pitch " it in the
corners nearly as much…
8<===================================================
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You’re not the only one, bro. I also refuse to compromise when it comes to
tires.

Phil Prince>From: “J&L Autoworks” jlautoworks@earthlink.net

To: “Jag- Lovers” xj@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xj] The Interminable Tire Thread was Jaguar Ride
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:19:02 -0500

From: “Steve Averill”

A number of years back, Goodyear made a particular point of trying to
convince car owners that speed ratings were irrelevant for vehicles
operated on public roads. There was even a long article to that effect
in
Road & Track. They failed and finally gave up and started putting that
all-important rating on their own tires because many assumed Goodyears
were
inferior without one. I suspect that Doug and I are up against the same
mindset that Goodyear tried to combat. Logic and facts didn’t help
Goodyear
either.

Well, I’m just going to give up and go away with this whole thing.

I’m tired of being accused of being full of it or dispensing misinformation
because I want to put the best tires that I can on my and my customers’
cars.

I just find it odd that nobody seems to agree with me or Jaguar about
fitting V-rated or better tires to these cars.

Jeb

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Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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C’mon. We all know the industry secret to keeping any tire on the road!
Once a month, deflate them to only 5 PSI and drive them about a slolom
course (exercizing the sidewalls)and then re-fill with proper inflation.
Works best with Pirelli’s!

Trey McCay
The 150% higher than retail tire store, inc.

OK, in for a penny, in for a pound. I think you and teamed up
because you
knew I’d play devil’s advocate just for the sake of a good
debate ! You guys
are probably having a good chuckle right about now…

----- Original Message -----
From: “Phil prince” philp1313@msn.com

Let me start off by seconding everything Jeb has said. And not just
because
we are both professional mechanics & stick together. It is
because our
opinions come from YEARS of experience.

As does mine.

(snip=“blah, blah, blah”)===================================================
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By the by, Tirerack (no affil…) has some nice infrared photos of sidewalls
on tall and low-profile tires running at speed. The pics make it clear why
low profiles have lower mileage warranties – hot, hot, hot. :]–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Trey McCay wrote:

C’mon. We all know the industry secret to keeping any tire on the road!
Once a month, deflate them to only 5 PSI and drive them about a slolom
course (exercizing the sidewalls)and then re-fill with proper inflation.
Works best with Pirelli’s!

Trey McCay
The 150% higher than retail tire store, inc.

OK, in for a penny, in for a pound. I think you and teamed up
because you
knew I’d play devil’s advocate just for the sake of a good
debate ! You guys
are probably having a good chuckle right about now…

[clip]

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In reply to a message from Phil prince sent Thu 29 Nov 2001:

Are 16’’ X 7’’ wheels too big for my 85 XJ6?–
The original message included these comments:

I

find that cheap set of 16X7 wheels and a way to transport them. Perhaps


Peter Jones
Manassas/Virginia, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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// please trim quoted text to context only

I’ve seen a couple XJ6’s with 16x7 XJS wheels sportin’ 225/60x16
tires…and it looked like they fit fine.

Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USAFrom: “Peter Jones” pjones1951@aol.com

Are 16’’ X 7’’ wheels too big for my 85 XJ6?

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// please trim quoted text to context only

No. I had a set of 16x7 Jaguar wheels from an X300 on my 87 XJ6. They are
now mounted on my S3 V12 VDP.

Jim

Peter wrote:
Are 16’’ X 7’’ wheels too big for my 85 XJ6?===================================================
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// please trim quoted text to context only