[xj] upgrading squirrel cage ventilation fans S1 XJ6?


(tony) #1

I wish to upgrade the twin squirrel cage ventilation fans in
my 420G, and they are the same size as S1 XJ6 items.

I read that E-type owners use Miata, or Fiero fans, which
moves more air

There is also a discussion there now, about fitting better
blades to the motors.

Can anyone advise if there is a known upgrade for the S1 XJ
ventilation fans ?–
Tony
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(Roger Mabry) #2

In reply to a message from awg sent Mon 18 Jan 2016:

Tony

I sure hope you find a better solution… I have looked and
am using the later model (72-73) fans but they do not move
more air… just have an additional speed.

Speed is one problems and the squirrel cages are another… we
we do need to move more air.

I have been told that the biggest problem is the evaporator itself
itself… too small…but I am not expert.

My car with the Sanden compressor, modern condenser and expa
expansion valve adjusted for R134 has very cold air… but thei
their is not enough air being moved.

I have added two extra hoses and have two extra center ve
vents so the available air blows on the drivers face… he
helps.

Finding cages that will fit in the hole and onto the motor
shaft that move more air is a ‘‘dream of mine’’. Has to work
in both motor directions in the S1 XJ as the motors turn
different directions in moving the hot/cold air through the
evaporator housing.–
The original message included these comments:

Can anyone advise if there is a known upgrade for the S1 XJ
ventilation fans ?


'71 XJ6 383/200R, 2015 Dodge Ram 1500 4X4 Eco Diesel
Glendora, CA, United States
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(tony) #3

In reply to a message from Roger Mabry sent Mon 18 Jan 2016:

Hi Roger,

On the moving more air, via squirrel cage issue

here is what they are discussing on the E-type forum,
including the need to fit directional squirrel cage BLADES
as well, as apparently (E-types) use non-directional blades.

I am not aware whether later cars had directional blades, I
know the motors are directional.

It seems they are also fitting motors from other vehicles
that spin a lot faster ?..I will make inquires on their thread

If any of that is useful, or makes sense please let me know,

I agree the evaporator is too small, I had a factory A/C S1,
all one can do is try to optimise as best one can

http://forums.jag-lovers.org/tv.php3?eNrLL8q0zcxLSa1QS7RN1S2pLEhVK7Y1NDcxNja0tALTRgZQ2gxCG0P5xlC+KZRvagylYeJQ/WZGUBoqb2YOpS0gtDlUv4WxFQCvvCA2

''I just looked and an even less expensive option (under $10)
is from a company named FASCO.

For example the model # 1-6000 is a 4-3/4’’ X -15/16 CCW
rotation wheel for $9.79 at:

they also make a CW rotation wheel of the same size.

Go to Fasco’s website and they have a downloadable catalog
with all their fan sizes.

http://www.koffler.com/pdf/Fasco_Full_Catalog.pdf--
The original message included these comments:

That’s a keeper… CC wheels are at the bottom of the page.


John Walker, 1969 E-Type Coupe ‘’

‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’
and another site for fan wheels
http://tinyurl.com/hqt7p2b


The original message included these comments:

I sure hope you find a better solution… I have looked and
am using the later model (72-73) fans but they do not move
Speed is one problems and the squirrel cages are another… we
we do need to move more air.
I have been told that the biggest problem is the evaporator itself
itself… too small…but I am not expert.
Finding cages that will fit in the hole and onto the motor
shaft that move more air is a ‘‘dream of mine’’. Has to work
in both motor directions in the S1 XJ as the motors turn
different directions in moving the hot/cold air through the
evaporator housing.


Tony
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(tony) #4

In reply to a message from Roger Mabry sent Mon 18 Jan 2016:

here is the site showing excellent detail of the E-type mod

http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?t=2240&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=fiero+fan+upgrade&start=0

hopefully that inspires some ideas–
The original message included these comments:

I sure hope you find a better solution… I have looked and
Finding cages that will fit in the hole and onto the motor
shaft that move more air is a ‘‘dream of mine’’. Has to work
in both motor directions in the S1 XJ as the motors turn
different directions in moving the hot/cold air through the
evaporator housing.


Tony
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(Roger Mabry) #5

In reply to a message from awg sent Tue 19 Jan 2016:

I saved the link and downloaded the catalog. I will look into th
into these ‘‘upgrade’’ solutions… both types.

The great install of the Fiero motors looks wonderful… but I do
I do not know if the E type has AC or just heat?

My concern is AC air movement more than heat use with the
fascia being cleared.

Plus, I have the late model S1 fans now with the extra
panel of resistors on top of the evaporator… that will
require some investigation.–
'71 XJ6 383/200R, 2015 Dodge Ram 1500 4X4 Eco Diesel
Glendora, CA, United States
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(Robert Wilkinson) #6

In reply to a message from awg sent Mon 18 Jan 2016:

I had assumed that they were the same, but never actually
looked. Just now, Roger Mabry asked me to measure the XJ
fans for him to compare to the e-type fans and their GM upgrade.

The 420G fans (mine might be Mark X…not sure) are different
then the XJ S1. Here are some measurements.

Series 1 early metal fan: shaft hole 1/4, diam 5 1/2, width
2 3/4, blades slightly directional.

Series 1 late plastic fan: shaft hole 1/4, diam 5,
width 2 5/16, NOT directional

420 G fan (rear mounted evap): shaft hole 5/16, width 3,
diameter 4 3/4, highly directional (sloped blades).

The 420G and early XJ assemblies are thus different left and
right, whereas the permanent magnet late XJ fans are the
same part left and right–just reverse polarity.–
The original message included these comments:

I wish to upgrade the twin squirrel cage ventilation fans in
my 420G, and they are the same size as S1 XJ6 items.


Bob Wilkinson, 73 XJ6
Saint Louis, MO, United States
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(Roger Mabry) #7

In reply to a message from Robert Wilkinson sent Tue 19 Jan 2016:

I am ordering the two cages (#6000 and #6024 - different dire
directions) and will try changing the cages to see if there is i
is improved air flow.

If this works out, I will order the new more powerful mo
motors and add the needed electrical changes to get even mo
more air flow…

Robert has managed to tweak the resistors on the later
model fans setup to increase the motor speeds on low and
medium… I will try that tweak as well before ordering the
new motors.–
The original message included these comments:

Series 1 late plastic fan: shaft hole 1/4, diam 5,
width 2 5/16, NOT directional


'71 XJ6 383/200R, 2015 Dodge Ram 1500 4X4 Eco Diesel
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(Roger Mabry) #8

In reply to a message from Roger Mabry sent Tue 19 Jan 2016:

I made a typo on the product numbers:

Should be F-1-6000 and F-1-6048… they are on order now…–
The original message included these comments:

I am ordering the two cages (#6000 and #6024 - different dire
directions) and will try changing the cages to see if there is i
is improved air flow.


'71 XJ6 383/200R, 2015 Dodge Ram 1500 4X4 Eco Diesel
Glendora, CA, United States
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(Gordon S. Tompkins) #9

In reply to a message from Roger Mabry sent Tue 19 Jan 2016:

Roger,

Not knowledgeable of A?C airflow principals!!! However, I
am pretty sure that if you replaced the non directional
squirrel cage with a same sized correct direction
directional squirrel cage you would get increased airflow.
Pretty sure that was intimated in that Fiero fan post. Also,
pretty sure he got an increase in flow by using a bigger
squirrel cage. I don’t think his airflow increase was solely
because of motors. I recall when I was fooling around with
mine there was a lot of room in the cavity for a bigger cage
but the mounting surface had an opening that limited the
diameter.

Betcha you could use your existing motors (and setup) with
bigger correct directional cages you would end up the
airflow you desire. It would necessitate new mounting plates
and increasing the opening size but I am confident that is
well within your abilities.–
The original message included these comments:

I saved the link and downloaded the catalog. I will look into th
into these ‘‘upgrade’’ solutions… both types.
The great install of the Fiero motors looks wonderful… but I do
I do not know if the E type has AC or just heat?
My concern is AC air movement more than heat use with the
fascia being cleared.
Plus, I have the late model S1 fans now with the extra
panel of resistors on top of the evaporator… that will
require some investigation.


Gordon S. Tompkins (2009 XK Coupe’)
Oakdale, CA, United States
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(tony) #10

In reply to a message from Robert Wilkinson sent Tue 19 Jan 2016:

I should have made it a little clearer, that the fans I was
talking of are the HEATER fans, size wise, the 420G/XJ are
the same. (or at least a direct swap)

The 420G AIRCON fans (in the boot) are much bigger, and the
evaporator is enormous.

I actually have 2 x flat 5’’ 36W computer server fans blowing
thru my evaporator core, its a long story, I have mounted an
A/C core in my heater case

however, I want a hurricane coming out my air vents, as most
new cars can deliver, the old Jag fans just dont turn fast
enough afaic, (or apparently have efficient blades)

The UK E-type forum, where he measures with an anenometer
seem to make that clear.

E-types came with or without A/C , although they are talking
about heater, similar principles apply to A/C airflow (only
its more critical to get things optimal)–
The original message included these comments:

The 420G fans (mine might be Mark X…not sure) are different
then the XJ S1. Here are some measurements.
Series 1 early metal fan: shaft hole 1/4, diam 5 1/2, width


Tony
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(Roger Mabry) #11

In reply to a message from GSTompkins sent Tue 19 Jan 2016:

Gordon

I concur, the cages should help increase the air flow… I wi
will try that first.

If not, will install the bigger fans later on… right now
I am in the middle of a fuel injection conversion and bare meta
metal re-painting.–
The original message included these comments:

Not knowledgeable of A?C airflow principals!!! However, I
am pretty sure that if you replaced the non directional
squirrel cage with a same sized correct direction
directional squirrel cage you would get increased airflow.
Pretty sure that was intimated in that Fiero fan post. Also,
pretty sure he got an increase in flow by using a bigger
squirrel cage. I don’t think his airflow increase was solely


'71 XJ6 383/200R, 2015 Dodge Ram 1500 4X4 Eco Diesel
Glendora, CA, United States
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(Roger Mabry) #12

In reply to a message from Roger Mabry sent Tue 19 Jan 2016:

Cages came in yesterday PM… they are metal with set screws to h
to hold them onto the motor shafts.

I will test the current ones today with tissue hanging down fr
from headliner to see how much it is blown around by the cu
current air flow.

Then I will change the cages and re-test. At this moment I
am not sure the change in air flow will be easily
determined… but there is the hope. Would love to have it
be a great amount of air movement!!!–
The original message included these comments:

I concur, the cages should help increase the air flow… I wi
will try that first.


'71 XJ6 383/200R, 2015 Dodge Ram 1500 4X4 Eco Diesel
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(Roger Mabry) #13

In reply to a message from Roger Mabry sent Fri 22 Jan 2016:

Unfortunately the new metal cages have 5/16’’ holes and the
motor shafts are 1/4’’. Trying to devise a piece of tubing
with a cut out for the Allen set screw to take up the extra spac
space.

So far all attempts have the cage ‘‘wobbling’’ when attached to
to the motor shaft.

After putting a lightweight plastic bag pinned in the
center of the headliner and adjusting the side vents to hit
it… the bag moved 4-5 inches… will re test after
figuring out a proper shaft shim for the new cages.

The extra center vents that have been added blow much more
air than the side vents… will blow the plastic bag
horizontal to the headliner by themselves.–
The original message included these comments:

I will test the current ones today with tissue hanging down fr
from headliner to see how much it is blown around by the cu
current air flow.


'71 XJ6 383/200R, 2015 Dodge Ram 1500 4X4 Eco Diesel
Glendora, CA, United States
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(tony) #14

In reply to a message from Roger Mabry sent Fri 22 Jan 2016:

a few methods to mate your shaft to blades;

A) go online and order a special (usually bronze) sleeve
bush, if you are lucky there will be exactly the right size,
if not, a mod may be needed.

if you are mating 5/16’’ to 1/4’’ my calcs say a wall
thickness of ~0.8mm is needed…that is quite thick!

B) regular (thin-walled domestic) copper pipe has a wall
thickness near that. If 5/16’’ OD is available, it is
possible to drill & ream a short piece out.

(or larger OD copper can slotted lengthwise to make OD you
need, but is more hassle)

C) use a piece of correct thickness flat metal, make a shim,
wrap it (plus loctite or similar, would be best)

As the fan is spinning fast, whatever is done has to be made
carefully, for a precise fit. I have done all of the above

ps, I will have another look, but the MKX/420G blades are
metal, and seem to be directional, in that the blades are
oriented one way, the XJ items are plastic?, and they are
slightly larger–
The original message included these comments:

Unfortunately the new metal cages have 5/16’’ holes and the
motor shafts are 1/4’’. Trying to devise a piece of tubing
with a cut out for the Allen set screw to take up the extra spac
space.
So far all attempts have the cage ‘‘wobbling’’ when attached to
to the motor shaft.


Tony
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(Roger Mabry) #15

In reply to a message from awg sent Fri 22 Jan 2016:

I ordered the correct FASCO bushing for adapting the 1/4’’
shaft to the 5/16 hole in the cages. They fit and work perfectly.
perfectly.

They arrived and I have one in place now and am working on th
the other side…plastic cage would not come off the shaft an
and I had to break it to get it off…

Will report on the results when finished, hopefully today
as I had interruptions Sunday due to the NFL games.–
The original message included these comments:

A) go online and order a special (usually bronze) sleeve
bush, if you are lucky there will be exactly the right size,


'71 XJ6 383/200R, 2015 Dodge Ram 1500 4X4 Eco Diesel
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(Roger Mabry) #16

In reply to a message from Roger Mabry sent Mon 25 Jan 2016:

Motor with cage stuck on it will not go on at all now…
ordered a replacement from David Boger at EverydayXJ… plus
one of the Lokut Nut plastic screw clips shattered and have th
those on order as well. It would not hold the motor tightly en
enough to keep the cage from hitting inside the fan box.

So only one fan is installed and working properly… hard
to test the result yet… waiting for more parts. 45 year
old plastic parts are brittle!–
The original message included these comments:

They arrived and I have one in place now and am working on th
the other side…plastic cage would not come off the shaft an
and I had to break it to get it off…


'71 XJ6 383/200R, 2015 Dodge Ram 1500 4X4 Eco Diesel
Glendora, CA, United States
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(Roger Mabry) #17

In reply to a message from Roger Mabry sent Tue 26 Jan 2016:

New metal directional cages appear to move much more air… am
am waiting for new rubber grommets to arrive to correct lo
loose fans that are hitting the inside of the heater box. Ca
Can position them but then they move around due to too soft ru
rubber in the ring mounts to the motor itself.

I used a hanging light weight plastic bag from the
headliner at head height in the center of the car. The new
fans now move the bag about 4-5 inches farther than with t
the plastic cages.

You can now hear the air moving…just have to get rid of
the rubbing now to complete this project.–
'71 XJ6 383/200R, 2015 Dodge Ram 1500 4X4 Eco Diesel
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(tony) #18

In reply to a message from Roger Mabry sent Sun 31 Jan 2016:

Hi Roger, and others

I have rummaged my fan motor collection, and found a couple
of things.

First, 420G metal squirrel cage blades are scalloped
directionally, unlike later plastic XJ items, so I think
little would be gained by replacing them.

They only measure 100mm X 70mm (heater fans).

There is only 10mm extra clearance inside the heater case.

Turning them faster is my aim.

In my collection, I found a motor that fits right in, but
has a 5/16’’ (8mm) diameter shaft already…is this the later
XJ unit you referred to?

(from google) you can apparently stick thingss on the
blades, record sound with Audacity on laptop and that will
allow RPM analysis ?

If that works, I can test other 12V motors.

An Ebay anenometer also cost as low as $15–
The original message included these comments:

New metal directional cages appear to move much more air… am
am waiting for new rubber grommets to arrive to correct lo
loose fans that are hitting the inside of the heater box. Ca
Can position them but then they move around due to too soft ru
rubber in the ring mounts to the motor itself.


Tony
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(Roger Mabry) #19

In reply to a message from awg sent Fri 5 Feb 2016:

No, the later motors have the smaller 1/4’’ shafts… the ne
new metal cages had 5/16’’ holes and I had to buy the metal bu
bushings to make them fit properly.

My plastic bag movement is enough proof for me… go the
new rubber grommets for the fans now and the drivers side is
is done. Passenger side fan is to be upgraded today… had to
to fix
exhaust yesterday due to new manifolds…

Anemometer would have been handy! Bag no cost and available.–
The original message included these comments:

In my collection, I found a motor that fits right in, but
has a 5/16’’ (8mm) diameter shaft already…is this the later
XJ unit you referred to?


'71 XJ6 383/200R, 2015 Dodge Ram 1500 4X4 Eco Diesel
Glendora, CA, United States
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The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
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(tony) #20

In reply to a message from Roger Mabry sent Fri 5 Feb 2016:

Its weird this motor has an 8mm shaft, it seems a Jag one
for sure.

I purchased many boxes of Jag parts in a clean out from a
fellow who was VERY clever with all technical matters,
including aircon, and he had collected and dismantled fans,
so we are not the first!

The GM Commodore fan (motor) I am hoping to fit pulls up to
280W… which indicates over 22A!..that is ~3 times what
the 420G motor pull max, fitting 2 would be big.

There is a specialist wrecker of these vehicles nearby, I
will attend, take measurements, and fire one up!–
The original message included these comments:

No, the later motors have the smaller 1/4’’ shafts… the ne
new metal cages had 5/16’’ holes and I had to buy the metal bu
bushings to make them fit properly.


Tony
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The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
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