[xj40] EGR Puzzle

XJ40
1

When a few months ago the Jag received 2 new cats, one
Ox-sensor and one new EGR valvel to pass California clean
air requirements, the shop had to replace EGR a second time
within just few days. Only symptom was engine fail light
came on. The seconded replacement went for perhaps a month
or more and light again reappeared. Shop verified today
vacuum is fine and yet this 2nd new replacement is again
failing. Shop owner rechecked with vendor and verified they
furnished the replacements with the correct number. Any
experience or comments why they fail is welcome.–
LarryWard '93XJ40 '81MBZ300TD '95 Dodge4x4 CTD
modesto, ca., United States
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2

In reply to a message from LaJagy sent Wed 31 Oct 2012:

Which Fuel Failure are you getting?

There are two common error codes with the EGR system, one
for the valve failure itself, the other is electrical for
the EGR solenoid.

After that, the EGR system is checked by a temperature
sensor under the intake manifold. If the ECU does not see
the sensor get hot, it assumes the EGR valve has failed.

Also, it’s VERY common for the EGR port going into the
intake manifold to clog up with carbon deposits (can be
shockingly large). If the port gets clogged, that too will
trigger the EGR fault.–
02 VDP – Driveway’s got too many SAABs in it!
Tampa Fl, United States
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3

In reply to a message from LaJagy sent Wed 31 Oct 2012:

When is the last time you cleaned the EGR port? I usually
clean mine on an annual basis and cleaning normally takes
care of any faults.

Is the vacuum hose that goes to the solenoid in good
condition and attached?–
The original message included these comments:

within just few days. Only symptom was engine fail light
came on. The seconded replacement went for perhaps a month

–
John 90 XJ40
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4

In reply to a message from Win sent Thu 1 Nov 2012:

The fault code was/is 39(fuel). The owner of shop is well
certified so it will surprise me if he is not up on the
likely interferences to this problem, but I will offer all
that you ‘‘Lovers’’ proffer to the game of ‘‘Love of the Jags’’.

Thanks much. Larry

PS: Is there another site such as ‘‘Jag-loversspurned’’?;(–
The original message included these comments:

Which Fuel Failure are you getting?
There are two common error codes with the EGR system, one
for the valve failure itself, the other is electrical for
the EGR solenoid.
After that, the EGR system is checked by a temperature
sensor under the intake manifold. If the ECU does not see
the sensor get hot, it assumes the EGR valve has failed.
Also, it’s VERY common for the EGR port going into the
intake manifold to clog up with carbon deposits (can be
shockingly large). If the port gets clogged, that too will
trigger the EGR fault.

–
LarryWard '93XJ40 '81MBZ300TD '95 Dodge4x4 CTD
modesto, ca., United States
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5

In reply to a message from LaJagy sent Thu 1 Nov 2012:

OK then, FF 39 is a fault withing the EGR system, not the
electrical fault within the EGR solenoid system.

That the EGR valve has already been replaced (twice), it’s
essentially a sure bet the problem is the temp sensor is not
registering an increase in temps when the EGR should be open.

Odds are on the EGR port being so clogged you’re not getting
enough exhaust gasses through it to get the temperature rise.

Time to pop off the throttle body and clean out that port.
Probably a good time to clean the throttle body as well.

If you do remove the TPS before cleaning the throttle body,
put an index mark in it first so it can be returned to it’s
original position.

Throttle body is a metal to metal facing on the intake
manifold, no gaskets or sealant is required.–
The original message included these comments:

The fault code was/is 39(fuel). The owner of shop is well
certified so it will surprise me if he is not up on the
likely interferences to this problem, but I will offer all
that you ‘‘Lovers’’ proffer to the game of ‘‘Love of the Jags’’.
Thanks much. Larry

–
02 VDP – Driveway’s got too many SAABs in it!
Tampa Fl, United States
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6

In reply to a message from Win sent Thu 1 Nov 2012:

I’m backing Win’s theory on this one.

When was the last time you cleaned the EGR port in the TB?
I would do that first.

My AJ6 4.0L Engine Management System/OBD1 Diagnostic Guide
manual says that DTC 39 is an EGR temperature sensor circuit.

Under Possible faults the first two possible faults contain
blockage

Blockage in EGR transfer pipe between valve and intake manifold

Blockage in intake manifold EGR adapter

The other Possible Faults

Disconnected leaking or blocked vacuum hose to EGR solenoid
vacuum valve or EGR valve

Defective EGR solenoid valve

Defective EGR temperature sensor

Open or short circuit wiring

I did have that little blue EGR solenoid go bad but I think
it is a rare instance.

Are you sure the vacuum line from the solenoid is connected
on both ends and the hose is not leaking?

Most often the problem is like Win mentions, a blockage at
the EGR port.

Although the metal to metal thing is open for discussion. I
had my Jag dealer look up my VIN ans said that my VIN did
require a gasket. Indeed my parts seller (not Jag dealer)
had the gaskets. Gasket installed I honestly found no
difference in the operation than having no gasket.

If you remove the TB having a small ratchet set and some
extensions and maybe a swivel head. I have a few different
methods now to remove the TB.

I’ll e-mail you more about the DTC 39 subject–
The original message included these comments:

Odds are on the EGR port being so clogged you’re not getting
enough exhaust gasses through it to get the temperature rise.
Time to pop off the throttle body and clean out that port.
Probably a good time to clean the throttle body as well.
Throttle body is a metal to metal facing on the intake
manifold, no gaskets or sealant is required.

–
John 90 XJ40
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7

In reply to a message from John S sent Fri 2 Nov 2012:

Well, The shop did replace the egr valve again. Engine lite
went off and wished that was end of story. But noticed it
had a rough idle but drove to an appointment and begin to
smell burned oil or similiar, raised hood and some smoke was
rising at top rear of engine. So after appt. I returned to
shop and they took a few minutes determining some valve
cover weepage was being ignited probably by the exhaust from
egr valve perhaps. I snugged up the phillips head valve
cover screws a bit. Additionally the shop owner was
concerned as I was of the sulpher like exhaust and even the
sound indicated roughness in exhaust. Decided to not drive
it anymore this weekend out of concern for damage to the new
cats, etc. They will pour over the problem Monday when I
leave it.

Seems as though there is excessive heat in that small
wrapped pipe. Is a properly working egr only moving exhaust
for limited time or amounts? Seems its purpose was to reduce
nitrogen oxides if my memory is correct.

Before they installed this 3rd new egr the engine ran
smooth, had no smelly exhaust nor any burnoff of some very
small amount of occult oil on engine valve cover area or
head resulting in definite slight smoke and definite smoke.
Had none of those symptoms. Even my fuel milage tracking
does not get in the higher previous numbers.–
The original message included these comments:

manual says that DTC 39 is an EGR temperature sensor circuit.
blockage
Blockage in EGR transfer pipe between valve and intake manifold
Blockage in intake manifold EGR adapter
The other Possible Faults
Disconnected leaking or blocked vacuum hose to EGR solenoid
vacuum valve or EGR valve
Defective EGR solenoid valve
Defective EGR temperature sensor

Odds are on the EGR port being so clogged you’re not getting
enough exhaust gasses through it to get the temperature rise.

–
LarryWard '93XJ40 '81MBZ300TD '95 Dodge4x4 CTD
modesto, ca., United States
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8

In reply to a message from LaJagy sent Sat 3 Nov 2012:

Rear of the engine could be your valve cover or it could be
that little cover at the rear of the head. I’ve been
fighting that rear cover seeping for two years. It is just
about impossible to reach.

The EGR valve opens and closes and that pipe gets hot.

''Its job is to route a portion of the exhaust gases back
into the intake manifold.

EGR flow is controlled which opens or closes the valve as
needed. The EGR system is, for the most part, in the �out of
sight, out of mind� category, and typical doesn�t require
regular maintenance.

If it gets clogged with carbon deposits, you�ll see your
�check engine� light come on, will show that there is
insufficient flow. That typically results from a vehicle
being driven persistently on short trips that don�t allow
the engine to fully warm up. Flow problems also can be
caused by carbon buildup due to failure to change the oil
frequently enough.

A clogged EGR valve not only results in higher emissions, it
can affect fuel economy and cause rough idling � even
possible engine damage. ‘’

If your car was OBDII you might get a code of perhaps P0401
or P0402 or P0403.

The EGR valve is to route a portion of the exhaust gases
back into the intake manifold. That lowers combustion
temperature to below 2,500 degrees Fahrenheit � the
temperature at which NOx gases form.

If it were me I would be telling the shop, clean the EGR
crude out and then look for broken parts.

In my book if someone installed a 3rd EGR valve my,
‘‘do-you-know-what-you-are-doing’’ antenna would raise very
high in the air. Especially if the car was running OK when
it went in the shop and after the install it ran bad. It
makes me go…hm ???–
The original message included these comments:

smell burned oil or similiar, raised hood and some smoke was
rising at top rear of engine. So after appt. I returned to
Seems as though there is excessive heat in that small
wrapped pipe. Is a properly working egr only moving exhaust
for limited time or amounts? Seems its purpose was to reduce
nitrogen oxides if my memory is correct.
Before they installed this 3rd new egr the engine ran
smooth, had no smelly exhaust nor any burnoff of some very
small amount of occult oil on engine valve cover area or

–
John 90 XJ40
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9

In reply to a message from John S sent Sat 3 Nov 2012:

The 3rd new EGR valve replacement seems to now resolve the
matter. Owner of shop, John showed me the removed new valve
and how the seal permit air through even as it looked
closed. Assured me they also originally made sure the line
and port were open. World-Pac distributor said Jaguar would
not take back. Seems unbelievable but he told them before
shipping this last one to be sure it worked. And he would be
paying for only one new EGR valve not three.

But, the hot odor which I believe has the slight smell of
oil shows up after engine warms up. I am guessing it
emanates from that same line carrying the hot exhaust gas to
intake manifold although I no longer see any visible smoke
rising from the region as before with the defective valve.
However, this was not a previous ailment until the
overheating from the exhaust gases.

Could there be a slight rupture of that line? Would a
defective valve remaining open permit excess exhaust gas
create too much heat resulting in some pipe damage? The odor
fumes is enough for us to turn on the recirculation of
interior air to close off the odor from creeping from the
hood into fresh air intake. When we replaced head gasket
about 3 yrs ago a new valve cover gasket was installed.
Usually the sloped engine would cause any oil to creep from
the lower edge of cover I think although the pipe does wrap
clear around of the back of engine. Perhaps I will try using
my infrared heat detector to trace the high heat spot. The
previous defective valves did not ever create this burning
odor or smoke or smelly exhaust or rough idle. Previous
valves simply gave me the engine dash light with code ‘‘39
Fuel Failure’’ but it ran fine and did well on fuel usage.–
The original message included these comments:

Rear of the engine could be your valve cover or it could be
that little cover at the rear of the head. I’ve been
fighting that rear cover seeping for two years. It is just
about impossible to reach.
The EGR valve opens and closes and that pipe gets hot.
''Its job is to route a portion of the exhaust gases back
into the intake manifold.

–
LarryWard '93XJ40 '81MBZ300TD '95 Dodge4x4 CTD
modesto, ca., United States
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10

In reply to a message from LaJagy sent Sat 10 Nov 2012:

A puzzle indeed. I have never heard of needing three new
EGR valves in quick order.

Do you see any burnt oil residue on the exhaust pipe where
it makes it first 90 degree to go under the car?

Rough idle. Have you checked the vac hose from the EGR to
the solenoid and is it in good order. Have you applied
vacuum to the EGR valve and does it hold?

Were any cleaning fluids used? Maybe what you are smelling
is the residue burning away?

Does it idle rough on a cold and hot engine?
The EGR valve is valve closed on a cold engine and opens
when the engine is at operating temp. If they did use
cleaner or some more carbon has gotten into the valve it
could be stuck open when it is cold.

Still haven’t heard if the throttle body was removed to
check the port. It is the only way to see if there is a
mountain of crud growing on top of the EGR port.–
The original message included these comments:

fumes is enough for us to turn on the recirculation of
interior air to close off the odor from creeping from the

–
John 90 XJ40
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11

In reply to a message from John S sent Sun 11 Nov 2012:

I do not know if throttle body was examined, but will ask.
However about 3yrs back when head gasket was replaced it was
cleaned. The idle has only very slight hardly noticeable
stumble. But the odor as mentioned is a puzzle and tomorrow
the shop will hear about that. I wonder if the crankcase
ventilation (PCV)could be the source. But your point is well
taken on rechecking for hose leaks. But I will also be sure
it is not some valve cover oil leakage that creeps out and
gets on the EGR pipe. If there was some oil getting on lower
exhaust pipe and think it would not get into the cabin but
would be carried away by air motion underneath car. We have
driven car enough miles since last new EGR for any residue
to be burned off, I am quite sure. Thanks for good
suggestions.–
The original message included these comments:

Do you see any burnt oil residue on the exhaust pipe where
it makes it first 90 degree to go under the car?
Rough idle. Have you checked the vac hose from the EGR to
the solenoid and is it in good order. Have you applied
vacuum to the EGR valve and does it hold?

–
LarryWard '93XJ40 '81MBZ300TD '95 Dodge4x4 CTD
modesto, ca., United States
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12

In reply to a message from LaJagy sent Mon 12 Nov 2012:

Cleaning the throttle body is different from cleaning the
EGR port. That EGR port is behind the TB. I make a lot of
small trips and think I produce more crud that the average
car (maybe — maybe not) and I try to clean the port on an
annual basis.

I know for a fact (from experience) that if oil is burning
on that exhaust pipe the smell would get drawn into the
cabin. It may not happen while going down the road but
sitting at a light with the climate control fan, it can draw
in the smell.

You mention the PCV and I can’t address that one. My 1990
doesn’t have a Positive crankcase valve. Did the 93 have a
valve?

Did you feel for oil on the cover at the rear of the head?
It’s not the valve cover gasket, it is the gasket on the
rectangular cover located at the rear of the head.–
The original message included these comments:

However about 3yrs back when head gasket was replaced it was
cleaned. The idle has only very slight hardly noticeable
the shop will hear about that. I wonder if the crankcase
ventilation (PCV)could be the source. But your point is well
gets on the EGR pipe. If there was some oil getting on lower
exhaust pipe and think it would not get into the cabin but
would be carried away by air motion underneath car. We have

–
John 90 XJ40
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13

In reply to a message from John S sent Mon 12 Nov 2012:

I believe oil creeps out from cam cover gasket and lands on
the egr pipe of which some of foil covered wrap is missing a
a piece exposing the hot pipe, alas the odor of burned oil.
Or could be one of those two rear semi-circle plugs related
to cam cover.

What I am uncertain of is the plate attached to rear of head
with 6 bolts. What does it cover up - perhaps the cooling
chamber of head or is it oil related? Have not determined if
those bolts are loose. I wiped all that area and smell
disappeared for a day but it is gradually coming back.
Snugging up cam cover screws did not make a difference. Cam
cover gasket, etc., is only 3 yrs old.–
The original message included these comments:

Did you feel for oil on the cover at the rear of the head?
It’s not the valve cover gasket, it is the gasket on the
rectangular cover located at the rear of the head.

–
LarryWard '93XJ40 '81MBZ300TD '95 Dodge4x4 CTD
modesto, ca., United States
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14

Hi Larry. The cover on the rear of the cyl hd covers both water and oil. For
that reason it can be a source of leaking for either liquid.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news on that front :frowning:
Try snugging up the bolts on the plate, so long as you don’t go hard at it
then you should be OK.
You might find that there is a small amount of movement in some of the
bolts.
Regards Robin O’Connor
'92 XJ40 4.0 Ltr
Auckland NZ----- Original Message -----
From: “LaJagy” wards2u@gmail.com
To: xj40@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: [xj40] EGR Puzzle

In reply to a message from John S sent Mon 12 Nov 2012:

I believe oil creeps out from cam cover gasket and lands on
the egr pipe of which some of foil covered wrap is missing a
a piece exposing the hot pipe, alas the odor of burned oil.
Or could be one of those two rear semi-circle plugs related
to cam cover.

What I am uncertain of is the plate attached to rear of head
with 6 bolts. What does it cover up - perhaps the cooling
chamber of head or is it oil related? Have not determined if
those bolts are loose. I wiped all that area and smell
disappeared for a day but it is gradually coming back.
Snugging up cam cover screws did not make a difference. Cam
cover gasket, etc., is only 3 yrs old.

The original message included these comments:

Did you feel for oil on the cover at the rear of the head?
It’s not the valve cover gasket, it is the gasket on the
rectangular cover located at the rear of the head.

–
LarryWard '93XJ40 '81MBZ300TD '95 Dodge4x4 CTD
modesto, ca., United States
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Line Books and more !

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15

In reply to a message from Robin and Maureen O’Connor sent Tue 20 Nov 2012:

I bristle every time that plate is mentioned. I’ve had the
oil leak from it and it leaks onto the pipe and smokes.
Removing the plate looks like a pain to complete. Plus
there is the chance that the gasket that separates the
middle of the plate goes and you get oil / coolant mixing
together.

That plate isn’t high on my good design meter.–
The original message included these comments:

Hi Larry. The cover on the rear of the cyl hd covers both water and oil. For
that reason it can be a source of leaking for either liquid.

–
John 90 XJ40
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16

In theory that gasket should not suffer too much, unlike a head gasket, it
is not under any great pressure only heat.
My Tuppence worth :slight_smile:
Regards Robin O’Connor
'92 XJ40 4.0 Ltr
Auckland NZ----- Original Message -----
From: “John S” js4453@att.net
To: xj40@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [xj40] EGR Puzzle

In reply to a message from Robin and Maureen O’Connor sent Tue 20 Nov
2012:

I bristle every time that plate is mentioned. I’ve had the
oil leak from it and it leaks onto the pipe and smokes.
Removing the plate looks like a pain to complete. Plus
there is the chance that the gasket that separates the
middle of the plate goes and you get oil / coolant mixing
together.

That plate isn’t high on my good design meter.

The original message included these comments:

Hi Larry. The cover on the rear of the cyl hd covers both water and oil.
For
that reason it can be a source of leaking for either liquid.

–
John 90 XJ40
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Line Books and more !

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17

In reply to a message from John S sent Thu 22 Nov 2012:

Curios what purpose the plate is suppose to serve? Could the
oil drainback be routed there? But why a plate for either
coolant or oil? I did reach several of the six bolts with
some difficulty and found them very snug, not movable
although box wrench was not of great length. Additionally
wipe over that plate did not reveal oil, so I am inclined to
further check valve or cam shaft cover gasket areas for
evidence. I do suspect it. Hope to remember when it is
resolved to repost the final findings.–
The original message included these comments:

I bristle every time that plate is mentioned. I’ve had the
oil leak from it and it leaks onto the pipe and smokes.
Removing the plate looks like a pain to complete. Plus
there is the chance that the gasket that separates the
middle of the plate goes and you get oil / coolant mixing
together.
That plate isn’t high on my good design meter.

–
LarryWard '93XJ40 '81MBZ300TD '95 Dodge4x4 CTD
modesto, ca., United States
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18

In reply to a message from LaJagy sent Fri 23 Nov 2012:

Larry,

You should try casting a hollow alloy cylinder head without
a large hole at one end to get the moulding material out! :-)–
The original message included these comments:

Curios what purpose the plate is suppose to serve? Could the
oil drainback be routed there? But why a plate for either
coolant or oil? I did reach several of the six bolts with
some difficulty and found them very snug, not movable

–
Bryan N, '91 Sovereign 4.0 L, RHD
Cambridgeshire, United Kingdom
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19

And to short cut the next question.

From a manufacturing point it is easier to produce one plate to cover two
holes that are ajacent to each other :slight_smile:

Regards Robin O’Connor
'92 XJ40 4.0 Ltr
Auckland NZ----- Original Message -----
From: “Bryan N” sophistic@btopenworld.com
To: xj40@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: [xj40] EGR Puzzle

In reply to a message from LaJagy sent Fri 23 Nov 2012:

Larry,

You should try casting a hollow alloy cylinder head without
a large hole at one end to get the moulding material out! :slight_smile:

The original message included these comments:

Curios what purpose the plate is suppose to serve? Could the
oil drainback be routed there? But why a plate for either
coolant or oil? I did reach several of the six bolts with
some difficulty and found them very snug, not movable

–
Bryan N, '91 Sovereign 4.0 L, RHD
Cambridgeshire, United Kingdom
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