[xj40] (Yet Another) New Type Of A.C. Coolant On the Way

I was having dinner yesterday with my tech and we were talking
a.c. systems and conversions to the newer stuff … I asked him
what he thought about converting my cats to the R134a or whatever
it is that is out now. My tech’s response was, basically, NOT. I
asked him why, and he said a new type of a.c. refigerant is coming
out next year, which I believe he said is called ‘‘1040’’, or
something like that. All new cars will utilize this stuff,
apparently. He said he will be attending school in a few weeks to
learn how it works.

What is up with all this a.c. controversy??? We started off with
good ole freon way back when, and I think have gone through 2 or
3 ‘‘upgraded’’ forms of car a.c. refrigerants over the recent years,
supposedly in the interests of enironmentalism. Are some of
the ‘‘powers that be’’ getting bribes/kickbacks to come up with this
stuff and make us use it or what???–
&:-)) Paul '88 XJ6 VDP 130k & '88 XJ6 VDP 180k
Garland, Texas, United States
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At 18:23 2006-06-08 +0200, AttyDallas wrote:

I was having dinner yesterday with my tech and we were talking
a.c. systems and conversions to the newer stuff … I asked him
what he thought about converting my cats to the R134a or whatever
it is that is out now. My tech’s response was, basically, NOT.

Translation: wait, soon I’ll have something more expensive to sell you.

I asked him why, and he said a new type of a.c. refigerant is coming
out next year, which I believe he said is called ‘‘1040’’, or
something like that.

I dunno the slated product name for it, but chances are he’s talking about
Honeywell’s new forumation they announced back in February this year.

All new cars will utilize this stuff, apparently.

That’s a bit forward-looking. In Europe for instance, R134a in new cars is
supposed to start being phased out starting in 2011. What it is supposed
to be replaced with hasn’t yet been determined.

He said he will be attending school in a few weeks to learn how it works.

The SAE has an automotive alternate refigerants symposium (which != school)
at the end of this month in Arizona.

BTW - one of the issues with electric and hybrid cars - while they’re
touted as more efficient, and the engine only needs to run when you’re
moving: what happens to the A/C compressor when you’re sitting at a standstill?

What is up with all this a.c. controversy??? We started off with
good ole freon way back when

Actually, we started out with good ole AMMONIA, and eventually made our way
to R12 Freon.

and I think have gone through 2 or 3 ‘‘upgraded’’ forms of car a.c.
refrigerants over the recent years,

Since R12 was nixxed? No, just R134a. There have been a lot of wannabe
refrigerant replacements, but they’re not employed by automakers - they’re
pitched a can at a time to suckers in the general public.

supposedly in the interests of enironmentalism. Are some of
the ‘‘powers that be’’ getting bribes/kickbacks to come up with this
stuff and make us use it or what???

Some conspiracy theorist argue that the original patent for the R12
formulation was set to expire, and to keep a lock on profits, DuPont (the
patent holder) needed to basically make R12 illegal to produce (so that
other companies wouldn’t be making it by the bucketload without paying
royalty fees to them), and then be standing there with a suitable (and
freshly patented) replacement.

http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/refrigerant_history.htm

There’s plenty of real conspiracies out there - I don’t think this is one
of them.

Of course, I do believe that the US EPA is subject to a lot of corruption,
and entirely too much politics. Look at the MBTE oxygenate crap foisted on
California - I think groundwater contamination is one of those things the
EPA should be trying to avoid, not promoting (and then not immediatley
banning the addition of MBTE to our fuel supply once they realized their
own laws were screwing things up).

— '88 Jaguar XJ-SC 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Black Cat’
Sean Straw '85 Jaguar XJ-S 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Bad Kitty’
Sonoma County, California '91 Jaguar XJ40 4.0L (LHD) ‘Trevor’
http://jaguar.professional.org/ '69 Buick GranSport 455 V8

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In reply to a message from AttyDallas sent Thu 8 Jun 2006:

Paul:
There are any number of refrigerants available for use,
including a 50/50 mix of propane and butane. Freon was the brand
name for R-12 (dichlorodifluoromethane, with a molecular weight of
64) and it has been blamed for the depletion of the ozone layer in
the very high stratosphere. Besides, it was manufactured be only
one company on the US – DuPont.
Please tell me how a gas that’s more than twice as heavy as air
can reach the high stratosphere. Has the law of gravity been
repealed? Or replaced by the law of political levity?
R-134a (tetrafluoroethane) is a very adequate substitute for R-
12 in automotive use. I converted both of my 88 XJ40s to R134a
with very little expense. I bought the conversion kits from K-Mart
and installed them with the car sitting in my driveway. (I didn’t
have to worrk about recovering the R-12. It had long since leaked
out through a defective Schraeder valve)
If you convert your system, make sure that it sits under a deep
vacuum for at least 4 hours to get all of the moisture out of the
system. The newer lubricants do not attack O-rings, seals, or
hoses, so you don’t have to take the system all apart.–
The original message included these comments:

I was having dinner yesterday with my tech and we were talking
a.c. systems and conversions to the newer stuff … I asked him
what he thought about converting my cats to the R134a or whatever
it is that is out now. My tech’s response was, basically, NOT. I
asked him why, and he said a new type of a.c. refigerant is coming
out next year, which I believe he said is called ‘‘1040’’, or
something like that. All new cars will utilize this stuff,
apparently. He said he will be attending school in a few weeks to
learn how it works.
What is up with all this a.c. controversy??? We started off with
good ole freon way back when, and I think have gone through 2 or


Pete 70 XKE (193K) 88 XJ6 (233K) 88 XJ6 (217K) 60 Mini
Severna park, Maryland, United States
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In reply to a message from sean.straw%2BJaguar@mail.professional.org sent Thu 8 Jun 2006:

Well, then count me in as one of the suckers!!!

I have a slow…very slow leak in my system which two shops have
tried to find, but none have been successful… After paying a
couple times to have my entire system evacuated and then tested and
then re-filled…(law in Canada when they know you have a leak).I
gave up and decided to try these ‘‘cans sold to the suckers in the
general public’’ for myself. I drop one can of this alternative
refrigerant into my Jag each spring and drive all summer with nice
cold air coming out the vents. I no longer pay the various AC shops
to ''test ‘’ my car year after year, looking for a leak they can’t
find. My compressor and all other parts of the system appear to be
working normally. I am told that the compressor is not working as
hard with this new refrigereant and that the air coming out the
vents is colder than it would be with R134. Not sure if either
statement is true, but the system seems no worse for this new
refrigerant and my wallet likes it just fine.

I have been running it for a few years now. One I have used is
called DURACOOL the other was called REDTEK and a third that my
friend uses is called Glacier Gold. All have websites you can check
out. I believe they are all the same stuff…could be wrong.

Works for me…and they claim that they are more ozone
friendly…so…given that I know it’s leaking from somewhere…thats
a good thing.

Oh…still have the original R12 expansion nozzle, so probably not
getting the best temperatures I could if I changed nozzles…but
it’s still dry and cool in the car, so…who cares…

Signed:

Darren ‘‘the sucker’’ Bessey
88 XJ40–
The original message included these comments:

Since R12 was nixxed? No, just R134a. There have been a lot of wannabe
refrigerant replacements, but they’re not employed by automakers - they’re
pitched a can at a time to suckers in the general public.

supposedly in the interests of enironmentalism. Are some of


darren bessey
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At 19:43 2006-06-08 +0200, Jaguarpete wrote:

There are any number of refrigerants available for use,
including a 50/50 mix of propane and butane.

A refrigerant I would think any smoker wouldn’t want accidentally leaking
into their passenger compartment.

If it weren’t for the propensity of A/C systems to eventually leak
(including in the event of a collision), a whole array of effective
components could be used as the refrigerant. Just consider why R12 was
developed in the first place.

Freon was the brand name for R-12 (dichlorodifluoromethane, with a
molecular weight of 64) and it has been blamed for the depletion of the
ozone layer in
the very high stratosphere. Besides, it was manufactured be only
one company on the US – DuPont.

Not so. The patent was held by them, but more than one company
manufactured it over the years.

If you convert your system, make sure that it sits under a deep
vacuum for at least 4 hours to get all of the moisture out of the
system. The newer lubricants do not attack O-rings, seals, or
hoses, so you don’t have to take the system all apart.

You’re supposed to replace all the O-rings. They don’t have an infinite
service life.

Also, it isn’t necessarily the lubricants directly, but chemical reactions
within the system (esp. if not fully evacuated) which can attack components
(including the compressor bearings, etc). The refrigerant itself isn’t
wholly inert either…

— '88 Jaguar XJ-SC 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Black Cat’
Sean Straw '85 Jaguar XJ-S 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Bad Kitty’
Sonoma County, California '91 Jaguar XJ40 4.0L (LHD) ‘Trevor’
http://jaguar.professional.org/ '69 Buick GranSport 455 V8

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

At 20:00 2006-06-08 +0200, darren bessey wrote:

Well, then count me in as one of the suckers!!!

Will do.

I have a slow…very slow leak in my system which two shops have
tried to find, but none have been successful…

Even with UV dye?

vents is colder than it would be with R134. Not sure if either
statement is true, but the system seems no worse for this new
refrigerant and my wallet likes it just fine.

But you’re refilling each year, so you still haven’t fixed the
problem. It’s sort of like driving around with a leak in your petrol tank,
and just filling up more often to compensate.

I have been running it for a few years now. One I have used is
called DURACOOL the other was called REDTEK and a third that my
friend uses is called Glacier Gold. All have websites you can check
out. I believe they are all the same stuff…could be wrong.

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html

Hydrocarbon Blend B (= DURACOOL) is ILLEGAL in the USA. Plus, just to
meet transportation requirements, they had to change the blend and
repackage it, so although the stuff is marketed under the same name,
there’s a second formulation which hasn’t yet been submitted for evaluation
(maying it not approved for use either), though seeing as it is basically
the same materials, just a slightly tweaked mix, I rather doubt the
reformulated stuff will be approved either (the changes were merely so that
they could transport crates of the things, not USE it).

Nevermind that several states have laws prohibiting use of
propane/butane/other flammables as refrigerants.

Works for me…and they claim that they are more ozone
friendly…so…given that I know it’s leaking from somewhere…thats
a good thing.

… unless of course you - or your car - provide an igntion source. Know of
any?

I presume you’ve got no concerns about getting into an accident where your
condenser (right up in front of your radiator) gets perforated, whereupon
it will start rapidly leaking out the flammable refrigerant
blend. Thankfully, collisions NEVER produce sparks.

If you KNOW you have a leak, using a FLAMMABLE refrigerant seems, er, unwise.

Darren ‘‘the sucker’’ Bessey

Any relation to Darren “great balls of fire” Bessey ?

— '88 Jaguar XJ-SC 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Black Cat’
Sean Straw '85 Jaguar XJ-S 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Bad Kitty’
Sonoma County, California '91 Jaguar XJ40 4.0L (LHD) ‘Trevor’
http://jaguar.professional.org/ '69 Buick GranSport 455 V8

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

Paul
Don’t know about bribes but R12 has been illegal to manufacture for
years and what has been sold is the remaining supply. Since there seems
to be plenty around at the right price [$138 a pound around here last
time I checked] with 2.2 lb. or so needed for a refill its not worth it
to refill with R12 regardless. R12 deletes the ozone. You need a
license to buy it regardless and its illegal to vent your system to the
atmosphere. Just the law, but perhaps you could bribe someone if you
were caught doing it??? :slight_smile:

R134a is available in stores like Walmart for $25 a fill up and will
continue to be available for many years given the experience with R12
regardless of what they put in new cars today tomorrow or next year.

To convert you car to R134a you can have the system subject to a vacuum,
replace the dryer, replace the o rings on the hoses and top up with $25
worth of R134a. Of if all of your R12 had leaked out as had mine, you
can just charge the system with R134a and it will run just fine as mine
did when the AC shop did that without changing the Dryer.

Frankly I intend to change the dryer because the Dryer material for R12
is not compatible with R134a.

All of this information is available at the Sanden Compressor site along
with the recommended procedure for conversion.

Should you convert from R12 to R134a now? Why would you ask? Is your
R12 system fully charged now and working fine? If so leave it alone.
If you need to buy some R12 because your system keeps losing it and have
to pay several hundred bucks to buy it then convert to R134a since its
the less expensive way to go. If a new refrigerant comes out in the
2007 Pontiac and you want to keep up with the Jones you can change or
not. But if your R134a system were working fine why would you want to. LOL

Jay 90 VDP Majestic

AttyDallas wrote:>

I was having dinner yesterday with my tech and we were talking
a.c. systems and conversions to the newer stuff … I asked him
what he thought about converting my cats to the R134a or whatever
it is that is out now. My tech’s response was, basically, NOT. I
asked him why, and he said a new type of a.c. refigerant is coming
out next year, which I believe he said is called ‘‘1040’’, or
something like that. All new cars will utilize this stuff,
apparently. He said he will be attending school in a few weeks to
learn how it works.

What is up with all this a.c. controversy??? We started off with
good ole freon way back when, and I think have gone through 2 or
3 ‘‘upgraded’’ forms of car a.c. refrigerants over the recent years,
supposedly in the interests of enironmentalism. Are some of
the ‘‘powers that be’’ getting bribes/kickbacks to come up with this
stuff and make us use it or what???


&:-)) Paul '88 XJ6 VDP 130k & '88 XJ6 VDP 180k
Garland, Texas, United States
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Darren,

You might want to try the stuff I used in my Jeep AC last year. The
Jeep Grand Cherokee has a known coil problem and it cost a ton to get it
out from under the dash. My AC guy recommended just refilling the R134a
for about 10 years since that would be the equivalent cost to replace
the coil.

The darn stuff was leaking out so fast though I had to refill it 2-3
times a year so the last time I went for a refill at Walmart I noticed
that they had a couple of brands of stop leak for AC systems like the
Barrs leak they used on radiators. In fact one brand was Barrs Leak.
Anyhow I bought the non Barrs Leak stuff and chucked it into the Jeep AC
system figuring what did I have to lose. Lo and behold the stuff
actually worked to my amazement. Its been almost 14 months and the
refrigerant level is full. Have not lost a drop. The stuff looked like
it had little metal bee bees in it and it worked like a charm. Every
time I turn on the AC I am amazed it works so well and keep waiting for
it to leak but its been holding up fine.

Check it out.

Jay 90 VDP Majestic

darren bessey wrote:

In reply to a message from sean.straw%2BJaguar@mail.professional.org sent Thu 8 Jun 2006:

Well, then count me in as one of the suckers!!!

I have a slow…very slow leak in my system which two shops have
tried to find, but none have been successful… After paying a
couple times to have my entire system evacuated and then tested and

hard with this new refrigereant and that the air coming out the
endly…so…given that I know it’s leaking from somewhere…thats
a good thing.

Oh…still have the original R12 expansion nozzle, so probably not
getting the best temperatures I could if I changed nozzles…but
it’s still dry and cool in the car, so…who cares…
snip>> Signed:

Darren ‘‘the sucker’’ Bessey
88 XJ40


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