Michael Rogers, Toad Hall - you ask whether you should go out and get every
engine no. from all the engines in your pile? Brace yourself for the
inevitable answer: “yes!”. Ah well, I know that not all can share my
obsessions, but once they are gone (the engines and the numbers, that is)
they are gone forever and the small effort in recording and passing them on
will be rewarded one day with a little pleasure (perhaps disappointment?)
given to a past or present owner looking for the original, or trying to
locate the car the engine came from. Or, like the 120 engine (in a Mk 9 I
think) that we re-united with a 120 some years back. Of course, my interest
is in the XKs only, but over the years the passion for the other models
will increase and the info will be always of value once you collect it and
pass it on to where it can be accessed. Regards, John Elmgreen
Lannes,
How did you discover the correct engine numbers for your two cars. All I
received from the Heritage Foundation was a “not original as submitted”.
Aloha, Rob
In reply to a message from Gail Caveney sent Mon 29 Sep 2003:
Rob,
Both Joanna�s and my XKs were titled in California by the engine
numbers. The old titles matched the ID plates under the hood, so
thats what we sent off to the Heritage Foundation
All I did was record the engine numbers that are in the cars and
then reference an online XK data base, and thats where I got the
rest of the info.–
Brian http://www.huntingwulfs.com/Jaguars/index.html
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Brian,
What’s this on-line XK data base? Could you share the URL with us?
Regards,
David Lonsdale
Cirencester, UK
120FHC #681396
David
Brian might be referring to this site
http://www.car-nection.com/jagbase/engines1.htm
Jerry Oliver
Olympia, WA----- Original Message -----
From: DavidNLonsdale@aol.com
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [xk] Engine numbers
Brian,
What’s this on-line XK data base? Could you share the URL with us?
Regards,
David Lonsdale
Cirencester, UK
120FHC #681396
Hello, list,
May i pick the jag list “collective brain” for a moment???
Just how important is having the correct engine per the chassis
number
plate to the economic value of a 120???..immensely so, or only
somewhat, assuming a similar pattern of engine ('56ish MKVIIM) and
no
irreversible mods to the engine bay???
I have a reason for asking…I’ve been running a haggle on a 120
FHC
(681076…discs/spats) for awhile now, and the haggle has become
serious…
The 120’s owner has really only been interested in it as an
“investment”,
and, as you might imagine, wants to “make a killing” in selling
it…
I’m, frankly, at a loss to know just what to offer against his high
asking
price…is it alright to ask here about list members’
observations
as to what should be a realistic market value for the car, given its
condition???
If its alright to ask, then an over-view of the car is
this…its basically
very nearly complete, aside from the replacement engine having been
fitted, and appears
basically sound, with relatively little rust on the chassis and
underbody, but some rust-through
in the front wings around the door hinge boxes. The sills and door
shut faces appear to be
only surface-rusted on the underside, and still sound. The interior
is surprisingly good,
but ever so dirty and dingy from several decades of dead storage,
and the seats seem
basically intact, but were re-covered in so-so quality vinyl, years
ago.
, al
The facia veneer and door trim veneer, remarkably, does appear
salvageable, and my over-all
impression of the car is that it needs a great many details to be
re-worked (door wood, in some
areas, windscreen glass replaced, interior trim generally, etc.),
but wouldn’t need any major
body-work aside from the rust area repair to the front wings, and,
of course, a full re-spray, with
the body sanded to original primer…the door glass and its
mechanisms appear good, as do the
quarter-lights…the door hinges, of course, need re-working, a
rather tedious job, as
you know, but then, I’d have to expect that on any XK…
The grille and bumpers appear good, the reverse lamp is present, and
the boot lid is basically straight,
but the boot latch bits are missing.
The 120, allegedly, has been taken out and run on occasion, and,
again allegedly, will run with only
new batteries and some electrical work…or the coil and fuel
pump jump-wired, or some such…
The steering components appeared alright to a visual inspection,
with no noticeable play in the steering
box/idler/track rod, etc.
The owner says he has good title documents, so there would be no
problem, allegedly, with title change,
licencing, etc.
All in all, the car is well within the capabilities we have here to
make it safely road-worthy, but I’d need
to send the sheet metal rust repair work out to some reliable
specialist…and I’m a bit concerned about
being able to find someone who could do this work correctly and
well.
Please, Jaguar gurus, what say you as to a realistic market value
range for this car as it now is???..I’d really
like to have this one, but we’re far from wealthy and I have to
think carefully about the economic feasibility
of this one…
cheers
Carla–
Patricia E. Gibbons & Carla Satra
Tactical Link Systems
In California:
“She sells D-cells by the seashore”
<ICQ#: 72818195>
http://www.tactical-link.com
see my comvan at:
http://www.tactical-link.com/wa6ube.htm
…
My Public Key is available at:
http://wwwkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=0xedecb44f
Key ID: 0xEDECB44F
This key is RSA, NOT Diffie-Hellman !!
Carla:
Bottom line!
The car is worth what you are willing to pay and what he will accept!
A car with matching numbers is worth more. BUT be careful if the body plate
is new, could indicate some hanky-panky.
About 6 months ago an XK140 sold for USD 165,000. Very high and I don’t
think it was/is the market. BUT the guy with the USD 165,000 made it the market
for that car.
A 1952-54 XK120 FHC just sold on e-bay for USD 11,000 + . That car didn’t
look too bad either. My son saw the photos and asked if I had put ours on the
market.
Best regards,
Mad Ludwig
You can start with $8,000-$15000 for body repairs, if as you described
(professional Jag XK restorer, includes complete paint job. Then any
mechanical work needed ($5,000-$up?). Then any interior work…($1,500-$up).
Then electrics, etc., etc. This sounds like a pretty good project car. How
much of the work can you do yourself? What is it worth right now? I’d say
$7,500-10,000. My opinion, only. I have some experience here, having bought
an d mostly resotred a 120 project myself.
Greg Bernier
From: “Trish & Carla” wa6ube@tactical-link.com
Reply-To: xk@jag-lovers.org
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [xk] 120 fixed head query…engine numbers, etc…
it…>Please, Jaguar gurus, what say you as to a realistic market value
range for this car as it now is???..I’d really
like to have this one, but we’re far from wealthy and I have to
think carefully about the economic feasibility
of this one…Carla
Instant message during games with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE!
http://msnmessenger-download.com
In reply to a message from Jerry Oliver sent Mon 29 Sep 2003:
hey guys,
Jerry hit the nail on the head.
http://www.car-nection.com/jagbase/engines1.htm
will get you all the engine codes in order, easy to read.–
Brian http://www.huntingwulfs.com/Jaguars/index.html
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Carla;
Remember that 120 DHC I told you about?? It went for around
$30K and was in a lot better shape than the FHC you are describing… Given
the comparison between the two (body wise), I’d say you are in for a full
resto of the FHC at a minimum.
A “value” of a #5 restorable 120 FHC from Old Cars Price Guide is
$6250.
A #5 is described as:
“RESTORABLE: Needs complete restoration of body, chassis and
interior. May or may not be running, but isn’t weathered, wrecked, and/or
stripped to the point of being useful only for parts.”
" This car needs everything. It may not be operable, but it is
essentially all there and has only minor surface rust, if any rust at all.
While presenting a real challenge to the restorer, it won’t have him doing a
lot of chasing for missing parts."
A #4 is described as:
" GOOD: A drivable vehicle needing no, or only minor work to be
functional. Also a very poor amateur restoration. All components may need
restoration to be “Excellent” but the car is mostly useable “as is.”
"This is a driver. It may be in the process of restoration or it’s owner
may have big plans, but even from 20 feet away, there is no doubt that it
needs a lot of help.
The Value of a #4 is $10,200. An “SE” version is $800 and $350
higher for the #4 & 5 respectfully.
Old Cars Price Guide bases it’s “ball-park estimates” on
“collector-car auctions, verified reports of private sales and input from
experts,”
Figure the “investor” wouldn’t even buy an non-Numbers Correct car…
Since you say the seller wants to “make a killing” on this Jag, you
might be better served to walk away from it… a guy like that isn’t going
to listen to logic (I was thrown off a guy’s property after I offering him
$500 and when I told him his totally rusted-out '55 Chevy four door wouldn’t
be worth the $20K he wanted for it even if it was totally restored to a
“Pebble Beach” quality concours car!)…
Your guy probably watched a Krause or Barrett-Jackson auction and saw a
pristene, all original Alloy OTS sell for a hundred grand and thinks the
ragged-out tin-top should bring $50,000 at the least!!
Them’s my opinions, at least…
Let us know how you make out…
Charles #677556.----- Original Message -----
From: Trish & Carla
Hello, list,
May i pick the jag list “collective brain” for a moment???
Just how important is having the correct engine per the chassis
number
plate to the economic value of a 120???..immensely so, or only
somewhat, assuming a similar pattern of engine ('56ish MKVIIM) and
no
irreversible mods to the engine bay???I have a reason for asking…I’ve been running a haggle on a 120
FHC
(681076…discs/spats) for awhile now, and the haggle has become
serious…The 120’s owner has really only been interested in it as an
“investment”,
and, as you might imagine, wants to “make a killing” in selling
it…I’m, frankly, at a loss to know just what to offer against his high
asking
price…is it alright to ask here about list members’
observations
as to what should be a realistic market value for the car, given its
condition???
In reply to a message from BISHOP 13 sent Mon 29 Sep 2003:
Carla,
A few thoughts to add to what has been said:
-
It does little good to compare restored cars to unrestored cars
to get price insight because the cost of professional restoration
of almost any sort is far more that the resulting car will then
bring on the market. -
Few restorations advertised as ‘‘99.99 point/ concours winning
cars’’ really will be so without facing tough competition and
significant subsequent tweeking. If you follow this forum as
closely as I think you do, you have noted often the many points
rasied by listers about E-Bay cars described by sellers as
perfectly ‘’ original’’ that have many, many, many flaws. I have gone
to a lot of the less formal competitions, and almost never seen a
car that ( even with my limited knowledge) does not have flaws that
are not as original; even cars brought on trailers by professional
handlers/restorers to represent the owner.
I think that explains why a truly pristine car can bring $100,000
+, but there are VERY few that deserve to do so.
Having said this, it is clear to me that if one is buying for
investment, buy something VERY CAREFULLY that someone else has
already restored with dollars that you can buy for 25 cents. I can
almost guarantee that it wil be cheaper than having it done; doing
it yourself is another story and probably the best deal because you
have perfect knowledge of what is done, and how well, if you are
able to be honest with yourself while at the same time the price is
right.
Once you decide that ‘‘investment’’ is not the objective - and I am
not sure it ever really is so, pass on the things being sold at a
premium for investment reasons such as original numbers. After all,
previous posts have described how one can fake almost any munber on
a car to bring it back to ‘‘original’’ numbers, and that makes me
question the value of paying a lot for original numbers anyway.
However, even on a lesser car that you intend to be a driver be
glad to pay for professionally done improvements even for a flawed
car; a few missing parts , or an engine rebuild are really
expensive. I say ‘‘professionally done’’ because some of the finest
work is done by skilled amateurs with immense knowledge and great
skill - if you are going to pay any extra for some improvements get
to know the style of the person who did the work.
Just my opinions,
Karl–
karl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from karl sent Mon 29 Sep 2003:
Karl,
I like your post a lot, but I would like to make a distinction
between a �common sense� investment, and one �to make a killing.�
My idea (for what its worth, this is my opinion) of a common sense
investment is finding an XK that is in restorable condition, doing
ALL the restoration work myself, and enjoying driving the car until
I eventually sell it. IF I could break even or make any profit at
all, I would consider it a great investment. I would feel that the
satisfaction of bringing a classic XK back to life, the sheer
thrill and pleasure of driving it, would all add up to making every
dollar spent well worth it.
I tried going the route of paying a professional to restore my 140,
and I ended up in a 12k hole with very little to show for my money.
With my wife�s 120 OTS, we have done EVERYTHING ourselves so far,
and the joy of a shared hobby on such a fine project can�t be
underestimated.
We will take pains to restore the 120 to as close to original as
possible, as every Lister who has visited me and seen the Jags has
impressed on me the benefits of �originality� for resale. We have
no plans to ever do the concourse routine, we simply want an
original 120.
With my 140, it�s a �driver� and thats all it will ever be as long
as I own it, so I don�t really subscribe with all my heart and soul
to either extreme.
Trish started this thread asking about a 120FHC, so let me mention
a word about the 120FHC in the shop where we store our 120.
Fellow Lister Marcel drove all the way from Canada to inspect the
barn full of Jags on my website. Marcel came armed with the latest
buyers guide, and I had a copy of Hemmings.
Using both of our printed buyers guides, Marcel estimated the
120FHC at $9500.00 USD
The Jag had little rust, none to speak of really, all matching
numbers, and every part of the car was there, nothing missing.
There was even a trunkload of new parts, such as all new interior
wood, still in the original paper wrappings, it was quite a find, a
great project.
A few day later, I went to the Carlisle show, and there was a 120
up for auction. No bonnet, no interior, missing engine parts, no
tin under the bonnet, and appreciable rust all over the poor thing.
It went for $11,500. Go figure.–
Brian http://www.huntingwulfs.com/Jaguars/index.html
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Brian;
Porter’s Original XK (Version II) has a month-by-month listing
in the back pages that gives the number of the last XK produced each month…
It’s a good list to determine the Month/Year of an XK’s production date…
not the actual “birthday”, tho…
Charles #677556.----- Original Message -----
From: Lannes
hey guys,
Jerry hit the nail on the head.
http://www.car-nection.com/jagbase/engines1.htm
will get you all the engine codes in order, easy to read.
A question about engine# and head# is this allways different #.
I try to get some information about a XK 150.The Chassis#S834048BW
Engine#V1004-8 on plate (head says #V4905-8)Is this a -58 or a 57
because in Phil Porter it says may-57–
jorgen
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
The head, engine and plate all had the same number when the car left the
factory. The engine number is located on the top surface of the engine
block boss which the aluminum oil filter assembly bolts to. Check that and
see if it matches anything. Sometimes previous owners swap entire engines
and sometimes just the head. That’s why the chassis number is used to date
the car. Yours appears to be a very early LHD FHC with A/T.
Mike Eck
New Jersey, USA
'51 XK120 OTS, '62 3.8 MK2 MOD, '72 SIII E-Type 2+2> A question about engine# and head# is this allways different #.
I try to get some information about a XK 150.The Chassis#S834048BW
Engine#V1004-8 on plate (head says #V4905-8)Is this a -58 or a 57
because in Phil Porter it says may-57–
jorgen
XK140 head G9723-8 serial number BX28
this very late one of the last 250 XK140 engine number heads was on ebay recently
Interesting that it was blue.
Standard C.6733 or “A” head from William Mills.
I wonder why there are threads in the two main stud holes in the front?
I am not sure that the original question, paraphrased as what percentage of value is based on a matching numbers car, has been answered. There may not be an answer, but if there is, it is based on the value that the market places on it. I am old enough to opine that the matching numbers craze is relatively new. It used to be that if you restored a car, it was more important that you could find all the original bits, not that the numbers matched. This was particularly true when engines and transmissions had a tendency to self destruct. Is a car truly worthless or worth less because a destroyed engine was replaced? That said, I think there is still a value to originality, including an engine and transmission of the type that actually came on the car. A numbers matching car is an easy way to tell that it major components are original, but it is the end all and be all?
Intrinsically, not in the least bit.
ANY weight given to “matching numbers,” as a metric for the value of a mass-produced car, is the same as the effect loud exhausts have on the mental dyno.
It’s mental.
explore concours and sales for any other marque, brand…from Porsche to Corvette or Duesenberg: …some want complete and total originality,…some don’t care…but it seems certain that there can be a $ premium for complete originality., just depends on the buyer…an auctioneer will certainly mention it, as will most for sale ads. Nick