[xk-engine] Oil flow path in filter head, debris in PRV

Hi Gents,

I have been facing a low oil pressure issue with my e-type
3.8, 1963. I removed the filter head to check the relief
valve. I found something jammed between the seat and the
valve. See picture from link below:

http://i1307.photobucket.com/albums/s592/fredmec00/DSCF3072_
zps5471dea5.jpg

Ideas on what was that? Spring clip?

On the same subject, a little knowlege test: could somebody
confirm the flow path for the filter head assembly. I edited
the pictures and added A, B and C referencing the
holes/galeries to my best guess. Am I correct?

http://i1307.photobucket.com/albums/s592/fredmec00/DSCF3074_
zps360f7c34.jpg

http://i1307.photobucket.com/albums/s592/fredmec00/DSCF3079_
zps304557ce.jpg

Best Regards,
Fred–
Fred
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1 Like

In reply to a message from Fred Norway sent Fri 14 Mar 2014:

Well there’s a certain amount of guesswork here but :

The piece of black rubber could be from a valve stem oil seal.

The hard black plastic could be a fragment of chain guide pad.

The bits of metal look like remains of a split pin which might have
been from a con rod cap bolt/nut. Is the metal semi-circular in
cross section?

Or could be none of the above.

Regards,

Andy–
The original message included these comments:

I have been facing a low oil pressure issue with my e-type
3.8, 1963. I removed the filter head to check the relief
valve. I found something jammed between the seat and the
valve. See picture from link below:
http://i1307.photobucket.com/albums/s592/fredmec00/DSCF3072_
zps5471dea5.jpg
Ideas on what was that? Spring clip?


Andy Blakey 1983 XJ6 III 4.2 (UK) '‘Jane Seymour’
London, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

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In reply to a message from AndyBlakey sent Fri 14 Mar 2014:

Hey Andy, interesting thoughts… I was actually speculating
of being from the filter assembly. The manual shows a
locking spring, see link below, item 9.

I checked the filter element and long bolt, no sign of this
piece. The metal debris looks like a semi-circular wire.

How bad could it be if it came from the rod nuts? Did you
look into de flow path pictures I posted (links). If my flow
directions are correct, the filter should be able to retain
debris sucked from the sump.

Your opinion is much appreciated,
cheers,
Fred–
The original message included these comments:

I have been facing a low oil pressure issue with my e-type
3.8, 1963. I removed the filter head to check the relief
valve. I found something jammed between the seat and the
valve. See picture from link below:
http://i1307.photobucket.com/albums/s592/fredmec00/DSCF3072_
zps5471dea5.jpg
Ideas on what was that? Spring clip?


Fred
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

//please trim quoted text to context only

HI All.
There is a web site that allows you to convert a long address such as the
ones posted here into a very compact one.
It’s called Tinyuyrl.com
This is what the first address comes out as.

http://tinyurl.com/lmmh4y5

When I attempted the first viewing, due to the long address I inadvertently
included an extra portion of empty space. (a bit like my head sometimes) and
came back with a error.

Regards Robin O’Connor
'92 XJ40 4.0 Ltr
'66 'S’Type MoD
'95 XJ6 4.2 LWB
Auckland NZ----- Original Message -----
From: “Fred Norway” fredmec00@hotmail.com
To: xk-engine@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 1:00 AM
Subject: [xk-engine] Oil flow path in filter head, debris in PRV

//please trim quoted text to context only

Oops, take out the second ‘y’
Regards Robin O’Connor
'92 XJ40 4.0 Ltr
'66 'S’Type MoD
'95 XJ6 4.2 LWB
Auckland NZ----- Original Message -----
From: “Robin and Maureen O’Connor” <@Robin_and_Maureen1>
To: xk-engine@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [xk-engine] Oil flow path in filter head, debris in PRV

HI All.
There is a web site that allows you to convert a long address such as the
ones posted here into a very compact one.
It’s called Tinyuyrl.com
This is what the first address comes out as.

http://tinyurl.com/lmmh4y5

When I attempted the first viewing, due to the long address I
inadvertently included an extra portion of empty space. (a bit like my
head sometimes) and came back with a error.

Regards Robin O’Connor
'92 XJ40 4.0 Ltr
'66 'S’Type MoD
'95 XJ6 4.2 LWB
Auckland NZ
----- Original Message -----
From: “Fred Norway” fredmec00@hotmail.com
To: xk-engine@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 1:00 AM
Subject: [xk-engine] Oil flow path in filter head, debris in PRV

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In reply to a message from Fred Norway sent Fri 14 Mar 2014:

Hi Fred,

When I posted I was trying to think of sources in the engine that
could produce the items. They certainly could be from the filter
assembly too.
A split pin is a faily soft metal that will bend and stay in the
shape it is formed to. Spring steel is hard and will spring back
into shape. So maybe you can test one of those fragments.
If a rod nut came undone that would be bad news, considerable
damage could follow - but I’m speculating on the source of the
mysterious metal fragments.

The filter cetainly should retain debris drawn from the sump -
that’s what it’s there for. I wonder if those metal fragments
really could get through the sump strainer and pump?

Regards,

Andy–
The original message included these comments:

Hey Andy, interesting thoughts… I was actually speculating
of being from the filter assembly. The manual shows a
locking spring, see link below, item 9.
I checked the filter element and long bolt, no sign of this
piece. The metal debris looks like a semi-circular wire.
How bad could it be if it came from the rod nuts? Did you
look into de flow path pictures I posted (links). If my flow
directions are correct, the filter should be able to retain
debris sucked from the sump.


Andy Blakey 1983 XJ6 III 4.2 (UK) '‘Jane Seymour’
London, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

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In reply to a message from Robin and Maureen O’Connor sent Fri 14 Mar 2014:

The metal pieces certainly appear to be a cotter pin from a
connecting rod. The British call these split pins.
These things are normally fine if you only use them ONCE.
People don’t use them as much anymore because they are old
technology and modern vibration proof nuts are faster to
assemble on the production line.
So it appears somebody committed the ultimate
penny-wise-pound-foolish crime of using them at least twice,
thus saving $1.20 and risking damage to the oil pump. These
have been known to turn up inside the oil pump.
To be truly safe you might drop the pan and replace them all.

The port A in the block is plugged because it is not used on
this engine as you have the dump hose, though it is a dump
to the sump on other models such as the XK120.
Port D in the block is a drilling through to the main
bearing, plugged in this case because it is not used as it
is in line with the B area on the filter head.
I believe you may have labels B and C reversed. B is oil
coming from the pump to the outside of the filter element. C
is oil flowing from the center of the filter element to the
bearings gallery.
The A bypass relief valve with the dump hose opens when the
oil pump is putting out more than the bearings can handle.
The other smaller bypass valve opens when the filter element
is clogged and permits flow around it to the bearings.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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In reply to a message from Rob Reilly sent Sat 15 Mar 2014:

Hi Gents, thanks for all the useful information shared.

With regards to the split pin, I bended and it is pretty
soft. The hypothesis of it being oil filter washer retaining
clip is out of the game. The spring would be much harder to
bend and would return (at least a little) upon deformation.

Being the split pin, I afraid it could be linked to a
rencent noise coming from the engine. Initially diagnosed as
from the exhaust, but I wouldnt discard being from a
connecting rod half loose!

I shared below an Youtube audio/video from the noise,
Anybody have heard something similar before? Should I be
concerned about the nut already off and prepare for a bottom
engine rebuild?

Cheers,
Fred–
The original message included these comments:

The metal pieces certainly appear to be a cotter pin from a
connecting rod. The British call these split pins.


Fred
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

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If you found a broken split pin in the filter it had to come from somewhere.
It was either sitting in the pan from a previous rebuild or it recently
broke off. It takes about a half-hour to drop the pan and inspect the
connecting rod nuts for missing pins. Why speculate?

If it just started making that weird sound I would start by taking the fan
belt off and see if the problem goes away.

Mike Eck
New Jersey, USA
www.jaguarclock.com
'51 XK120 OTS, '62 3.8 MK2 MOD, '72 SIII E-Type 2+2

Hi Gents, thanks for all the useful information shared.

With regards to the split pin, I bended and it is pretty
soft. The hypothesis of it being oil filter washer retaining
clip is out of the game. The spring would be much harder to
bend and would return (at least a little) upon deformation.

Being the split pin, I afraid it could be linked to a
rencent noise coming from the engine. Initially diagnosed as
from the exhaust, but I wouldnt discard being from a
connecting rod half loose!

I shared below an Youtube audio/video from the noise,
Anybody have heard something similar before? Should I be
concerned about the nut already off and prepare for a bottom
engine rebuild?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRUuYhCvxWg

Cheers,
Fred

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In reply to a message from Mike Eck sent Sun 16 Mar 2014:

Hi Mike,

I had the impression that to remove the oil pan I would need
to remove the crankshaft damper and slack the engine
mountings. Removing the crankshaft damper is a big job, isn’t
it?

Cheers,
Fred–
The original message included these comments:

If you found a broken split pin in the filter it had to come from somewhere.
It was either sitting in the pan from a previous rebuild or it recently
broke off. It takes about a half-hour to drop the pan and inspect the
connecting rod nuts for missing pins. Why speculate?


Fred
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

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I’ve never removed the sump from a 6 cylinder E-Type but none of my other
cars required removing the damper. The MK2 requires removing the front
suspension subassembly, but I did it anyway to inspect the split pins and
crankshaft oil passages for my own peace of mind.

Removing the damper isn’t a big job. Replacing the engine because it threw
a rod through the crankcase, now THAT’S a big job.

Mike Eck
New Jersey, USA
www.jaguarclock.com
'51 XK120 OTS, '62 3.8 MK2 MOD, '72 SIII E-Type 2+2

Hi Mike,

I had the impression that to remove the oil pan I would need
to remove the crankshaft damper and slack the engine
mountings. Removing the crankshaft damper is a big job, isn’t
it?

Cheers,
Fred

The original message included these comments:

If you found a broken split pin in the filter it had to come from
somewhere.

It was either sitting in the pan from a previous rebuild or it recently
broke off. It takes about a half-hour to drop the pan and inspect the
connecting rod nuts for missing pins. Why speculate?


Fred

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In reply to a message from Mike Eck sent Sun 16 Mar 2014:

Fred, to me your sound seems more like a sheet metal
rattling than a connecting rod bearing, which would be like
tapping on the block with a hammer.
However it is difficult to be really sure when not there in
person.
Can you listen with a mechanics stethoscope or a long
screwdriver, tip held against the engine and the handle in
your ear?

There are apparently some tricks to removing the E sump, as
described in this discussion on xkedata.
http://www.xkedata.com/forums/thread/?id=266
The E-type forum people would certainly know more.

The only Jag I ever sold was a 6 cylinder E-type 1R27984,
and I wish I had it back.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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In reply to a message from AndyBlakey sent Sat 15 Mar 2014:

Thank you all for the input! I will definitely take the sump
out and replace the original slip pin nuts by the later ones
used in the 4.2 engine.

You all have a good week!
Cheers,
Fred–
Fred
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from AndyBlakey sent Sat 15 Mar 2014:

Since writing this another lister has contacted me with his own
(unfortunate) experience.
He confirmed that a broken piece of cotter pin can get through the
strainer and the pump, finishing up in the relief valve. The pump
didn’t escape unscathed though - the ring was broken though it
continued to work.
I can well imagine a larger piece of debris jamming the pump and
the driveshaft shearing somewhere along its length.

The moral maybe check a pump that has eaten a foreign object
carefully.
I know a well respected XK engine rebuilder here in the UK who
automatically fit a new pump on all their rebuilds irrespective of
condition.

Regards,

Andy–
The original message included these comments:

The filter cetainly should retain debris drawn from the sump -
that’s what it’s there for. I wonder if those metal fragments
really could get through the sump strainer and pump?


Andy Blakey 1983 XJ6 III 4.2 (UK) '‘Jane Seymour’
London, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

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