A few years ago a friend who’s a Jag parts vendor bought some old
Jag dealer inventory - lots of little bits that no-one ever needed
or would go to a dealer to buy. There were a number of bags of
hardware. I bought a few and he asked me why I needed this common
stuff-he knows I have barns full. I told him I want to settle an
argument. So, now after a move or two I have no idea where they
are. Some day…if I ever find them, i’ll post a photo or two.
At least the parts the dealers sold (Whitworth threads / Bees) had
a red oxide finish. All the ‘‘C’’ numbers were in the low thousands -
1000-3000.
Phil.–
PhilW
Virginville, Pa., United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Phil W;
The XK120 Catalogue lists “a lot” of the chassis fasteners with the
“Standard Parts” numbers… Any “C” Chassis Number (other than a
“hard part”) fastener would be a “special”… that is, unique in it’s own
right or a “standard part” that has been modified (ie a std bolt drilled
for a split pin, etc.)… Additionally, my J.8 XK120 Parts Catalogue,
Amended June 1954 (A.L.3) lists “most” of the Chassis Parts in the
C.3000 to C.6000 range… the few (some) parts with sub C.3000
part numbers were probably carry-overs from the pre-war MK’s…
example: C.1639 Washer (Ferrobestos) for Road Springs; C.611 Washer
(Fibre) for Road Springs; C.1219 (Metalastik) in each Spring Eye; C.640
Shackle, anchoring rear end of spring; C.729 Washer, Shakeproof; C.495
Gasket between Exhaust Pipe and Manifold Flanges; C.724 Washer,
Shakeproof, on Setscrews; C,726 Washer, Shakeproof; C.937 Gasket
for Element Unit; C.990 Filter Assembly; C.723 Washer, Shakeproof;
C.980 Tap, Drain; C.981 Washer (fibre) on Drain Tap; C.725 Washer Shakeproof
; C.726 Washer Shakeproof.
In my mind, there is no doubt that you would be doing The XK-List,
in particular, and the XK Jaguar Community as a whole, a GREAT
service if you were to photograph, inventory, etc. and make public the
information about the C.1000/C.3000 Red Oxide (Not "red paint, right??)
fasteners/parts you have… It is THIS level of Information, along with a
judging body with the guts to score highly XK120’s with the proper finish
fasteners AND to Deduct Points, “With Extreme Prejudice” those XK120’s who
FAIL to maintain the proper “standard”!!!
Charles #677556.
http://xktx.org----- Original Message -----
From: “PhilW”
A few years ago a friend who’s a Jag parts vendor bought some old
Jag dealer inventory - lots of little bits that no-one ever needed
or would go to a dealer to buy. There were a number of bags of
hardware. I bought a few and he asked me why I needed this common
stuff-he knows I have barns full. I told him I want to settle an
argument. So, now after a move or two I have no idea where they
are. Some day…if I ever find them, i’ll post a photo or two.
At least the parts the dealers sold (Whitworth threads / Bees) had
a red oxide finish. All the ‘‘C’’ numbers were in the low thousands -
1000-3000.
In reply to a message from cb@XKTX.Org sent Tue 19 Aug 2014:
kudos to Charles I absolutely agree! I fed up with pretty 120s
consistently winning 100.00 pt scores , there is no such thing as a
perfect car. But which judge is going to be the first to have thwe
cahones to do it ? Think there should be a prize for
courage…awarded to the judge who is prepared to successfully
challenge these posers! based on results you understand!–
The original message included these comments:
fasteners/parts you have… It is THIS level of Information, along with a
judging body with the guts to score highly XK120’s with the proper finish
fasteners AND to Deduct Points, ‘‘With Extreme Prejudice’’ those XK120’s who
FAIL to maintain the proper ‘‘standard’’!!!
In reply to a message from cb@XKTX.Org sent Tue 19 Aug 2014:
Bad news: I don’t know where I put them and they could be in 5
barns and 2 houses - I am a hoarder. There, I said it. Acceptance
is the first step.
Good news: I do have everything sorted out alphabetically. It’s all
under ‘‘J’’. I am, or was an archaeologist, so I should know how far
to dig through the crap.
I’ll give it a shot.
Phil–
The original message included these comments:
In my mind, there is no doubt that you would be doing The XK-List,
in particular, and the XK Jaguar Community as a whole, a GREAT
service if you were to photograph, inventory, etc. and make public the
information about the C.1000/C.3000 Red Oxide (Not ''red paint, right??)
Phil W;
I’ve been accused of being a “hoarder”, but I’m not… I just never throw
anything away! Never was an archeologist either and I’m an even worse
secretary… I could never figure out if all my “stuff” should be filed
under “T” for Trash, “R” for Refuse, “G” for Garbage or “J” for Junk…
(this might explain why I have over 1300 e-mails in my inbox, as well…
only 1400+ in my “Sent Items”)…
In any case, there is NO disputing original era factory packaged items
when it comes to “authenticity”!!
I know I would appreciate your efforts and findings, and I’m pretty
sure I’m not alone!!
Thanks.
Charles #677556.
http://xktx.org----- Original Message -----
From: “PhilW”
Bad news: I don’t know where I put them and they could be in 5
barns and 2 houses - I am a hoarder. There, I said it. Acceptance
is the first step.
Good news: I do have everything sorted out alphabetically. It’s all
under ‘‘J’’. I am, or was an archaeologist, so I should know how far
to dig through the crap.
Question about the chassis fasteners… are all the fasteners cad plated as a rule? I am getting ready to assemble my suspension and was hoping for a guide to follow. I started from ground level; i.e., all surfaces oxidized beyond recognition. It’s also my first tour of duty with Jaguars. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
Thanks Rob. Mine was issued around autumn of 1950. I did see residual red on the fasteners, just like you are showing here. Did you find this red on ALL chassis castle nuts and bolts? Thanks.
If one is replicating this look, what would be the best type of paint to use? It seems your average red enamel would build up thicker than what is shown here, and it would likely interfere with the threads. Looking for ideas… Thanks.
Well, I found plenty of red bolts and nuts on my 1950 Mark V and 1951 XK120, including at least one in just about every instance on the chassis, enough to make me confident in believing that they were used everywhere on the chassis where ANF threads were used, e.g. front suspension, brakes, clutch linkage, rear shock absorbers. Including inside the XK engine on the baffle plates in the sump. Though of course many were rusted on the surface and had very little if any red, sometimes just a tiny bit.
No red at all found on any BSF bolts and nuts, e.g. gearbox and rear axle, body. They are either uncoated on the gearbox, or black on the axle as it was painted after assembly.
I decided to paint all these bolt heads and nuts on my Mark V red, but just with a spray can, and yes it comes out thicker than the original, but on the other hand it should last longer. Of course I did not paint the threads.
If you wanted to duplicate exactly the original finish quality, i.e. not very good, you might get some red enamel and thin it down with mineral spirits, so it’s more of a wash than a coating.
The original wash treatment was presumably dunking them by the thousands in a bucket or vat, and was thin enough down in the threads that it did not affect the ability to assemble the nuts onto the bolts.
Thanks Rob, that’s a good idea thinning the paint; I think I will go that route. I was also looking on Youtube on red-oxide primers, but that red is more terracotta shade. Your pictures show more of a Chinese red.
I would like to see Roger Payne’s take on this subject, as I believe he has become over the years, an authority on this subject.
I would also like to see a response from other members of the Jaguar XK community regarding the “correctness” of a restored car. When judging, in most cases, there does not appear to be enough time allotted to going over a car in minute detail. What should all or most of the Fasteners look like? Black oxide, Black paint, Red oxide, Red Paint or cleaned, rusty with a dusting of flecks of Red remaining after 70 years out in the elements? People are spending extraordinary amount of time and money bringing these cars back from the dead. Where do we stop? I would also like to mention that the cars and their condition are being judged here in the USA, in Europe, in the UK and in Australia. All of them seem to have slightly different expectations. I know this sounds like opening Pandora’s Box, but I for one would like to have a Jaguar Directive, that we can all abide by if in fact we want to compete for the distinction of the World’s Best Jaguar XK120 / 140 / 150 etc.
Please keep in mind that some of the manufacturing processes common in the 50’s and 60’s are no longer available. They have been replaced by today’s technologies and driven by todays environmental standards.
Unless someone has an original bolt or nut which has never been fitted and has been kept out of the weather and in the dark all these years, I don’t think we’ll ever know the EXACT shade of red…!
Yeah, unless Phil finds his bags of NOS bolts he was going to look for 7 years ago, we’re not going to get any closer than the pix I posted 2 days ago.
Those are bolts and nuts from my Mark V which has 58k miles and been garage kept and summer driven only since 1977. The big red nuts were under the torsion bar muffs and presumably never exposed to weather and certainly no sun until I took them off in 2008 when I took those pix.
Unless we can get access to that 1200 mile XK120 in Calif, it’s probably never seen rain and might have better looking red bolts.
I don’t think there was any attempt to make all batches of bolts the same exact color.
I found one or two that looked more like purple.
And red bolts is only for an unknown time period, '49 to maybe '54?
After that, we hear of black oxide and cad plated on later cars, but not with consistency.
I decided to paint mine red so I would have a record of which were red, and for if I enter it in a concours. But I found out US judges don’t look underneath.
It is just too hard to pull together a lot of observations on unrestored and original cars, enough to declare that we really can be sure we know it all. All we can do is make our best guess based on the available evidence.
Judging rules and how they differ around the world is an entire philosophy which is reserved for another forum.
I tend to think that the fasteners were tumbled in red paint. I think I’ll take Rob’s suggestion of diluting red paint to the point that it will just drip off without build-up. I washed this with soapy water and shot the picture in our winter sun. The question in my head is whether this was paint applied to aide the works identify the fasteners, or was it a primer that was applied for protection.
My belief based on observations on my XK120, Mark V and '38 SS, is that it was an identifier for ANF threads, which were a new thing in the factory beginning with the Mark V IFS chassis in late '48. To prevent the boys using a BSF bolt where it didn’t belong, or a BSF nut on a ANF bolt. Not a rust preventer.
My '38 SS is all BSF and has zero red bolts.
I am cleaning fasteners for my rear suspension today; the evidence of red paint is clear everywhere. But, a fellow here in the SF Bay Area, whose shop has been restoring Jaguars for the past 35 years, told me… in no uncertain terms… that if I show a car with red fasteners point are deducted. All should be black oxide. How can we pin this down?
Unfortunately, cars restored by namebrand shops and winning in high profile shows like this one; Clark Gable’s own XK120, tend to overshadow, and probably eventually erase, originality records. The large nuts on the front of the wishbones in my car are bright red. Here you don’t see that. Photo is downloaded from Wikipedia–photographer unknown.
Ok, we were looking into the question of whether there were red bolts, and if so, which ones.
Now the focus has shifted from authentic originality to concours judging.
Authentic original philosophy attempts to determine how they left the factory.
Concours philosophy may be more about what looks best on the grass lawn.
The JCNA Concours XK120 Judging Guide is gradually moving toward authentic originality. Each item in the guide is determined by whether there is some sort of good documentation and a general agreement among the guide writers. The red bolts topic is not mentioned in the JCNA XK120 Guide.
Pebble Beach and Amelia Island rules may be more about what presents well than what is authentic original.
The front wishbone nuts certainly are visible if you bend over to look. They are also subject to weather deterioration.
Did the dealers and first owners think the red looked bad and painted them black? Did the rust get to them quickly?
It may be that we will never find one on which the original red remains.
