Can anyone advise me if any of the XK 140s SE models were
made original from the factor with the racing windshield?
I understand from a search of the archives that some or all
of the early 120 SE models were made this way, but I can’t
find any information about the 140 series and there is no
reference to the racing windshield in the book XK140
Explored. Also, I see racing windshields for sale and one
seller says his is like the original in that it has the
adjustment lever/knob only on one side. Is that correct?
In short, any information that you can provide on the
history of the racing windshield would be appreciated.–
Etch, Etype S1 coupes, XK140 roadster, Lotus Evora, 911
Spring Hill. fl, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Etch,
When I co-authored XK140 EXPLORED I was very careful to only include non
standard EXTRAS that were either listed in factory documentation as being
available to special order on a new XK140, or had other irrefutable proof
that the item had been factory fitted to a new XK140. (Things like the
‘cutaway-wheel-covers’ for instance proved to be a huge challenge)
The “Racing Windshield” was neither listed as being available nor to the
best of my knowledge ever factory fitted to a new XK140 roadster, thus was
NOT included/detailed in XK140 EXPLORED.
Clearly in the 1950s both XK120 factory ‘racing windshields’ were readily
available both as a new spare-part, or as a second-hand part ex an XK120,
and indeed there were also a number of after-market similar (but not
factory) ‘racing windshields’ readily available.
The fitting arrangement/shape for an XK120 roadster would of course mean
that they fitted perfectly onto an XK140 roadster that had its standard
windscreen removed, and thus XK120 ‘racing windshields’ can be and have been
fitted to XK140 roadsters.
There are many known original XK120 racing screens still in existence/fitted
to XK120s (or kept in storage) so not hard to get exact detail - and indeed
many are shown in period photographs of racing XK120s.
One clue that may be useful - they are fitted with TRIPLEX
(water-marked/dated) GLASS, so dating the glass will be a good indicator as
to origins of any screen you may find. Remember the repro after-market
racing screens have been readily available for many years.
Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
Etch
Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2014 7:29 AM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [xk] racing windshield XK140
Can anyone advise me if any of the XK 140s SE models were
made original from the factor with the racing windshield?
I understand from a search of the archives that some or all
of the early 120 SE models were made this way, but I can’t
find any information about the 140 series and there is no
reference to the racing windshield in the book XK140
Explored. Also, I see racing windshields for sale and one
seller says his is like the original in that it has the
adjustment lever/knob only on one side. Is that correct?
In short, any information that you can provide on the
history of the racing windshield would be appreciated.
Etch, Etype S1 coupes, XK140 roadster, Lotus Evora, 911
Spring Hill. fl, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Mon 24 Nov 2014:
Rogers reply reminds me that for an XK120 OTS there were small
cowls available to cover the conventional windscreen post holes
when it was removed for racing, and it is my belief that truly
factory original cowls had an aft facing ‘‘scoop’’ that are
rarely seen today. According to the SPC, these were attached
with multiple sheet metal screws. Photos close up enough to
distinguish are rare, but in studying old pictures of such
cars, I have only found the scooped version with four screws on
very early cars.
I believe it is correct to say that repros of the original
folding screen hardware were available from other manufactures
even during the time of the XK120 and possibly even preceding
it; Brooklands being one example. While on sees many Brooklands
marked screens fitted to XK120s today, I believe the originals
did not have these markings. Also the originals had sort of
skewed helical wing nuts not on many copies.
Karl–
The original message included these comments:
There are many known original XK120 racing screens still in existence/fitted
to XK120s (or kept in storage) so not hard to get exact detail - and indeed
many are shown in period photographs of racing XK120s.
–
karl
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In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Mon 24 Nov 2014:
Roger, thank you for the quick and detailed reply. The
person with the XK140 I am looking at, told me the racing
screen was original to the car. Now I understand that is
not the case, but that it might be an original factory one
that was for a 120 and subsequently put on the 140. I’ll
look for the Triplex mark and perhaps that will verify the
originality of the piece. Also, as a new XK owner, I
would like to congratulate you on the outstanding job you
did with XK140 Explored. It is an impressive car book and
has already become my guide in understanding and restoring
my ‘‘new’’ old car. Thanks again for your response and
expertise on these classic Jags. Don Etchison–
Etch, Etype S1 coupes, XK140 roadster, Lotus Evora, 911
Spring Hill. fl, United States
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In reply to a message from Etch sent Mon 24 Nov 2014:
I would caution taking the presence of the correct etching on a
windscreen a proof of originality because there has been
sufficient discussion of this topic over the years that with tools
available to almost anyone, the etching can be replicated
essentially at home.
Karl–
The original message included these comments:
that was for a 120 and subsequently put on the 140. I’ll
look for the Triplex mark and perhaps that will verify the
originality of the piece. Also, as a new XK owner, I
–
karl
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While Roger is the expert, it doesn’t mean 100% that the screens are
not original, here’s 3 scenarios.
-
“racing” screen isn’t an option “on the books” but customer really
liked the look on a 120 he saw, and the factory still had the
resources to make these, so they agreed to install it. -
Same scenario, except dealer installs as Roger suggests a new
“replacement” XK120 screen… Dealer installed instead of factory
installed, but still “original” at the point of sale -
Customer has an early 120 with racing screens and trades in on a
new 140, and has the dealer swap out windscreens between the cars
If the current/Previous owner has any documentation to support the
originality of the screens, either a “special order” from Coventry, or
a dealer installed bit, then that would clear it up.
Dealers still do this sort of thing today… example, I have a 2012
Chrysler 300 with the push-button start. All 300’s come from the
factory with a black start button… there’s no option for any other
color. But someone figured out the red start button from a Viper is a
plug and play replacement in the 300, and then some dealers started
offering that. Not factory, but maybe still “original” if it was done
before first title activity. Depends on definition of “original” I
suppose.
B Shriver
XK Data - The Cars - Jaguar XK120, XK140, XK150 information, articles, photos and register Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 8:39 AM, Brandon Shriver <@Brandon_Shriver> wrote:
While Roger is the expert, it doesn’t mean 100% that the screens are not
original, here’s 3 scenarios.
“racing” screen isn’t an option “on the books” but customer really liked
the look on a 120 he saw, and the factory still had the resources to make
these, so they agreed to install it.Same scenario, except dealer installs as Roger suggests a new
“replacement” XK120 screen… Dealer installed instead of factory installed,
but still “original” at the point of saleCustomer has an early 120 with racing screens and trades in on a new 140,
and has the dealer swap out windscreens between the carsIf the current/Previous owner has any documentation to support the
originality of the screens, either a “special order” from Coventry, or a
dealer installed bit, then that would clear it up.Dealers still do this sort of thing today… example, I have a 2012 Chrysler
300 with the push-button start. All 300’s come from the factory with a
black start button… there’s no option for any other color. But someone
figured out the red start button from a Viper is a plug and play replacement
in the 300, and then some dealers started offering that. Not factory, but
maybe still “original” if it was done before first title activity. Depends
on definition of “original” I suppose.B Shriver
XK Data - S810189 - Jaguar XK120, XK140, XK150 information, articles, photos and registerOn Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Etch donetchison@gmail.com wrote:
In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Mon 24 Nov 2014:
Roger, thank you for the quick and detailed reply. The
person with the XK140 I am looking at, told me the racing
screen was original to the car. Now I understand that is
not the case, but that it might be an original factory one
that was for a 120 and subsequently put on the 140. I’ll
look for the Triplex mark and perhaps that will verify the
originality of the piece. Also, as a new XK owner, I
would like to congratulate you on the outstanding job you
did with XK140 Explored. It is an impressive car book and
has already become my guide in understanding and restoring
my ‘‘new’’ old car. Thanks again for your response and
expertise on these classic Jags. Don EtchisonEtch, Etype S1 coupes, XK140 roadster, Lotus Evora, 911
Spring Hill. fl, United States
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In reply to a message from Brandon Shriver sent Tue 25 Nov 2014:
Brandon,
As you rightly say, it depends on the definition of ‘‘original’’
of which there are possibly as many as there are observers.
I believe it is safe to say that one widely accepted standard
is factory cataloged equipment specified for the particular car
and model, and I suspect that is what Roger had in mind.
The fact that dealer does something does not make it original
under that definition, nor that the factory had leftovers from
the prior model and fitted them.
Case in point: as far as I have learned [ because I am using
them on my car] some US dealers had a run of notched spats made
so as to permit fitting spats with wire wheels, and even
displayed them on a cars at a national car show, and almost
undoubtedly delivered new cars with them. Does not make them
‘‘original’’ under the definition which, while not perfect, seems
to be practicable to invoke for show judging purposes. I
believe of I took my car to a JCNA contest I could reasonably
expect to be knocked down for having them even if I brought the
original sales ticket showing them as dealer fitted before
delivery, and a photo of, say, a new XK120 OTS at the New York
Auto Show in 1954 fitted with them.
Karl–
The original message included these comments:
offering that. Not factory, but maybe still ‘‘original’’ if it was done
before first title activity. Depends on definition of ‘‘original’’ I
suppose.
–
karl
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Reminds me of the time, only a year or so after I bought my 120DHC,
that some “alleged expert” (with NO credentials) announced to me
and everyone within earshot, that my Jag was the rare “XK130” racing
prototype (yeah, right… a fixed windscreen that creates “downforce”
[aka: Drag!] in the center of the vehicle)… I didn’t buy his BS, at all…
and I knew NOTHING of XK Jaguars at the time… other than they
looked really, really neat!!
Charles #677556.
http://xktx.org----- Original Message -----
From: “Brandon Shriver”
While Roger is the expert, it doesn’t mean 100% that the screens are
not original, here’s 3 scenarios.
“racing” screen isn’t an option “on the books” but customer really
liked the look on a 120 he saw, and the factory still had the
resources to make these, so they agreed to install it.Same scenario, except dealer installs as Roger suggests a new
“replacement” XK120 screen… Dealer installed instead of factory
installed, but still “original” at the point of saleCustomer has an early 120 with racing screens and trades in on a
new 140, and has the dealer swap out windscreens between the carsIf the current/Previous owner has any documentation to support the
originality of the screens, either a “special order” from Coventry, or
a dealer installed bit, then that would clear it up.Dealers still do this sort of thing today… example, I have a 2012
Chrysler 300 with the push-button start. All 300’s come from the
factory with a black start button… there’s no option for any other
color. But someone figured out the red start button from a Viper is a
plug and play replacement in the 300, and then some dealers started
offering that. Not factory, but maybe still “original” if it was done
before first title activity. Depends on definition of “original” I
suppose.
B Shriver
XK Data - S810189 - Jaguar XK120, XK140, XK150 information, articles, photos and register
Sadly there are more of these “experts” in almost any field than there
are people who actually have a clue what they’re talking about, and
more importantly the humility to admit when they don’t!
B Shriver
XK Data - The Cars - Jaguar XK120, XK140, XK150 information, articles, photos and register Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 10:49 AM, cb@xktx.org wrote:
Reminds me of the time, only a year or so after I bought my 120DHC,
that some “alleged expert” (with NO credentials) announced to me
and everyone within earshot, that my Jag was the rare “XK130” racing
prototype (yeah, right… a fixed windscreen that creates “downforce”
[aka: Drag!] in the center of the vehicle)… I didn’t buy his BS, at all…
and I knew NOTHING of XK Jaguars at the time… other than they
looked really, really neat!!
Charles #677556.
http://xktx.org----- Original Message ----- From: “Brandon Shriver”
While Roger is the expert, it doesn’t mean 100% that the screens are
not original, here’s 3 scenarios.
“racing” screen isn’t an option “on the books” but customer really
liked the look on a 120 he saw, and the factory still had the
resources to make these, so they agreed to install it.Same scenario, except dealer installs as Roger suggests a new
“replacement” XK120 screen… Dealer installed instead of factory
installed, but still “original” at the point of saleCustomer has an early 120 with racing screens and trades in on a
new 140, and has the dealer swap out windscreens between the carsIf the current/Previous owner has any documentation to support the
originality of the screens, either a “special order” from Coventry, or
a dealer installed bit, then that would clear it up.Dealers still do this sort of thing today… example, I have a 2012
Chrysler 300 with the push-button start. All 300’s come from the
factory with a black start button… there’s no option for any other
color. But someone figured out the red start button from a Viper is a
plug and play replacement in the 300, and then some dealers started
offering that. Not factory, but maybe still “original” if it was done
before first title activity. Depends on definition of “original” I
suppose.
B Shriver
XK Data - S810189 - Jaguar XK120, XK140, XK150 information, articles, photos and register
In reply to a message from Brandon Shriver sent Tue 25 Nov 2014:
I need to chime in here… ok guys I need your help on
something…yes really! I have two… I hesitate at this point to
say a pair… of 120 aero screens… one is undoubtedly original and
has the triplex glass dated first quarter of 1950… it is NOS in
its original grey primer and has all the hallmarks of an original
factory item. The other is missing its glass, painted black, and I
have my doubts as to its ‘originality’ There are a number of
discrepancies between the two, the first has a thru drilled and
tapped locknut, the second is blind drilled, the first has a brass
thread, second steel,…and the threads are different but I haven’t
checked to see what they are. The wing nuts will not inter change
on the threads. the first has quite clearly stamped on the support
posts for the glass the part numbers, the second although readable
appear to be cast in, The second is missing its glass and although
there is evidence that it did once have glass in it there is no way
to tell whether or not it was triplex, or what date. Another thing
which makes me suspicious is that the support posts are noticably
smaller when placed side by side with the known originals. Any
guidance would be greatly appreciated–
godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
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Brandon has hit the nail on the head with his final comment:-
‘Depends on definition of “Original” I suppose’.
I am not suggesting that CONCOURS RULES are the be-all, but the Rule Makers
did have to come up with a definition of original for the purposes of this
type of competition with a set of rules that apply to all, and in all
scenarios, so as a matter of convenience I apply the Concours Rules
definition in such questions of originality or not.
In Australia - ORIGINAL means literally the ORIGINAL item/finish/condition
that a particular specific XK was despatched from the factory - so it’s a
very clear demarcation. Anything that happened to the car after it was
officially despatched from the factory that added to, altered, or changed is
therefore NOT ORIGINAL. So once it arrived at the docks, at the UK
dealership, or at the export distributor/dealership if they chose to do
anything to the car even though still ‘new’ and not yet sold/delivered to
first customer - its still not original.
But things deteriorate over time to a greater or lesser extent, so again in
Australia we do not assess/judge ORIGINALITY but instead assess/judge
AUTHENTICITY.
AUTHENTICITY is anything that is presented that to the best abilities of the
judging system and the ability/knowledge of the Judges is visually identical
to the ORIGINAL item that could have left the factory as a “STANDARD”
fitment on the same date for the same model/specification car as the car
being judged.
So what that means, and in the case of my Sept 1955 XK140MC roadster, it
left the factory painted MAROON. If I repaint my car in identical shade
MAROON it is NOT ORIGINAL, but it would be AUTHENTIC. But if I repainted
my car in BRG (a ‘standard’ colour for a Sept 1955 XK140MC roadster) it is
still NOT ORIGINAL, but it is AUTHENTIC. But if I repainted my car in
ARBOUR GREEN - a ‘standard’ colour offered for a USA market XK140MC roadster
in 1956 only, this is NOT AUTHENTIC for my Sept 1955 car, so would be
deducted accordingly.
There is and has to be of course a number of POLICY exceptions.
IF a car has a non-standard/special order option - then that can be retained
as being ORIGINAL (or restored AUTHENTIC) for the particular car that was
delivered new with that particular non-standard/ special order option.
But one/more cars receiving any non-standard/ pecial-order option does not
allow that to be an AUTHENTIC EXTRA for any other car of the same model/
specification and age.
So same scenario applies in case of Racing-Screens.
If there was in fact a documented/ proven example of any particular XK140
roadster being factory delivered from new with Racing-Screens then that
particular XK140 only, can still retain them as an acceptable ORIGINAL/
AUTHENTIC fitment.
But despite there possibly being even one example proven/ known to have been
so fitted from new with Racing-Screens, does not then allow any other XK140
OTS to fit them and be considered AUTHENTIC.
Clearly our Concours Rules state that if an XK (or any other model Jaguar)
is intending to be presented for Concours Judging with ANYTHING at all that
may be considered/debated not to be AUTHENTIC, then owner must be prepared
with proof/ documentation that item was ORIGINALLY fitted to their
particular car, or else they can expect to be penalised.
That’s the theory - but in practice things can be difficult to accurately/
consistently assessed when you have different expertise/ standard Judges and
models of cars to be judged for which prevailing knowledge is variable.
(Lot more known detail about an XK140 than there is for an SS1)
Over and above the theory/practice of ORIGINALITY/AUTHENTICITY rules as a
matter of POLICY we do allow certain non-authentic items to be accepted
without penalty - usually things as a matter of State legal registration
requirements such as allowing modern seat-belts to be fitted to cars not so
equipped originally, but unfortunately lobbying by parochial interest groups
keep seeking more self-interested exemptions, so we now allow modern Burglar
Alarms to be fitted (under the premise that getting insurance in Sydney -
once the stolen car capital of the world - was impossible/ expensive if no
burglar alarm was fitted) and now more recently we allow Fire Extinguishers
to be fitted, and now we also allow toll-debiting electronic devises to be
stuck to inside of windscreen!!!)
But really special exemptions as a matter of POLICY are the Rules that are
agreed on (according to prevailing decision making processes), so in our
case, anyone with a special agenda can make a submission/lobby etc to get
the Rules changed - thus our Policy allowance for Burglar Alarms/
Toll-Devices.
In USA things are a lot more sophisticated/ relaxed whatever. There is a
whole list of non-factory/ dealer-fitted accessories/modifications that are
allowable, after I understand extensive/exhaustive research as to their
merit/proof. Maybe that could be an option for anyone in USA wanting to
‘legitimise’ racing-screens being fitted to any XK140 OTS if they had
Concours ambitions?
But as per opening comments.
AS a matter of course the definition for AUTHENTIC works for me in all
matters research - outside the Concours Judging arena.
But nothing wrong for any particular owner preparing/ using his car in
whatever state/configuration they so choose, and many owners do prefer to
modify as they so see fit - 5-speed gearboxes, disc-brakes, added-electric
fans, and indeed added racing-screens. Just don’t claim such modified cars
are 100 point, or Original, or Authentic if they are clearly not.
Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
Brandon Shriver
Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2014 12:40 AM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xk] racing windshield XK140
While Roger is the expert, it doesn’t mean 100% that the screens are
not original, here’s 3 scenarios.
-
“racing” screen isn’t an option “on the books” but customer really
liked the look on a 120 he saw, and the factory still had the
resources to make these, so they agreed to install it. -
Same scenario, except dealer installs as Roger suggests a new
“replacement” XK120 screen… Dealer installed instead of factory
installed, but still “original” at the point of sale -
Customer has an early 120 with racing screens and trades in on a
new 140, and has the dealer swap out windscreens between the cars
If the current/Previous owner has any documentation to support the
originality of the screens, either a “special order” from Coventry, or
a dealer installed bit, then that would clear it up.
Dealers still do this sort of thing today… example, I have a 2012
Chrysler 300 with the push-button start. All 300’s come from the
factory with a black start button… there’s no option for any other
color. But someone figured out the red start button from a Viper is a
plug and play replacement in the 300, and then some dealers started
offering that. Not factory, but maybe still “original” if it was done
before first title activity. Depends on definition of “original” I
suppose.
B Shriver
On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 8:39 AM, Brandon Shriver brandon.shriver@gmail.com wrote:
While Roger is the expert, it doesn’t mean 100% that the screens are not
original, here’s 3 scenarios.
“racing” screen isn’t an option “on the books” but customer really
liked
the look on a 120 he saw, and the factory still had the resources to make
these, so they agreed to install it.Same scenario, except dealer installs as Roger suggests a new
“replacement” XK120 screen… Dealer installed instead of factory
installed,
but still “original” at the point of saleCustomer has an early 120 with racing screens and trades in on a new
140,
and has the dealer swap out windscreens between the carsIf the current/Previous owner has any documentation to support the
originality of the screens, either a “special order” from Coventry, or a
dealer installed bit, then that would clear it up.Dealers still do this sort of thing today… example, I have a 2012
Chrysler
300 with the push-button start. All 300’s come from the factory with a
black start button… there’s no option for any other color. But someone
figured out the red start button from a Viper is a plug and play
replacement
in the 300, and then some dealers started offering that. Not factory, but
maybe still “original” if it was done before first title activity.
Depends
on definition of “original” I suppose.B Shriver
XK Data - S810189 - Jaguar XK120, XK140, XK150 information, articles, photos and registerOn Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Etch donetchison@gmail.com wrote:
In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Mon 24 Nov 2014:
Roger, thank you for the quick and detailed reply. The
person with the XK140 I am looking at, told me the racing
screen was original to the car. Now I understand that is
not the case, but that it might be an original factory one
that was for a 120 and subsequently put on the 140. I’ll
look for the Triplex mark and perhaps that will verify the
originality of the piece. Also, as a new XK owner, I
would like to congratulate you on the outstanding job you
did with XK140 Explored. It is an impressive car book and
has already become my guide in understanding and restoring
my ‘‘new’’ old car. Thanks again for your response and
expertise on these classic Jags. Don EtchisonEtch, Etype S1 coupes, XK140 roadster, Lotus Evora, 911
Spring Hill. fl, United States
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–
Hang on!
If your XK140 left the factory with the water activated sticker on the
screen listing the cars particulars
ie
commission no
engine no
piston type and grade
gearbox no
axle type number and ratio
Shock absorber part numbers
Speedo No
Body number
colour
trim colour
headlining colour
key numbers
special equipment
It would mean that the sticker should still be on the screen at the point of
judging, same with protective covering on chrome and if your car came in a
create with the wheels off I want to see it presented that way complete with
crate with chassis number stencilled on it!!!
Once it gets to the dealer surely the dealer can prepare the car for sale
and fit factory authorised accessories ie W/W on a disc wheel car, radio,
mirrors etc etc etc
There were accessories catalogued and authorised by Jaguar North America a
company wholly and solely owned by Jaguar cars Ltd therefore it could be
said authorised by them ie nudge bars on an XK140 etc
The rules are way incorrect and don’t take account of real life situations
and given the state of concours in Australia probably have a lot to do with
it. You can fit some modern electronic gadget to your car and leave it on
for judging cos your to lazy to remove but you can’t have some 50 year old
accessory!
As to XK140’s whilst there may not be a piece of paper in the hands of a few
enthusiasts this is meaningless as to what accessories were officially and
actually available to customers and that were fitted officially by dealers
or sold as spare parts and fitted by owners or fitted at the factory shortly
after delivery.
As to aeroscreens on XK140 no there may not be a smoking gun saying they
were an option but the 100 or more XK140 roadsters pictured in various motor
sport magazines of the 1950’s tells me that they were readily available
through the dealers and if the correct factory made items should be accepted
as correct fitment on an XK140 roadster.
If we had the cards that the cars were built from that included every item
and detail fitted to the car at the point of manufacture
and to quote a few cards
XK140 roadster 9-1 comp, 2 inch carbs, competition clutch, CR gearbox, 3.77
axle, valve clearances .006 and .010
another that notes biscuit trim in an XK140 FHC with red carpets
or the special equipment XK140DHC with A/T and disc wheels and no interior
rear view mirror!
Things would be a lot more interesting
I personally love to see cars with period accessories both of a factory and
non factory nature.
My own XK140 roadster will have a fastback hardtop fitted that was made in
the late 1950’s for a RHD 140 roadster by one of Australia’s top 1950’s race
car body builders. This is designed to be removed and the standard
convertible roof used.
terry
In Australia - ORIGINAL means literally the ORIGINAL item/finish/condition
that a particular specific XK was despatched from the factory - so it’s a
very clear demarcation. Anything that happened to the car after it was
officially despatched from the factory that added to, altered, or changed is
therefore NOT ORIGINAL. So once it arrived at the docks, at the UK
dealership, or at the export distributor/dealership if they chose to do
anything to the car even though still ‘new’ and not yet sold/delivered to
first customer - its still not original.
In reply to a message from Terry Mcgrath sent Tue 25 Nov 2014:
Terry,
Is it your opinion that in concours events any equipment or
modification that had been available during the period the auto
was new; whether Jaguar, dealer or aftermarket should not result
in a deduction ?
Karl–
The original message included these comments:
I personally love to see cars with period accessories both of a factory and
non factory nature.
My own XK140 roadster will have a fastback hardtop fitted that was made in
the late 1950’s for a RHD 140 roadster by one of Australia’s top 1950’s race
car body builders. This is designed to be removed and the standard
convertible roof used.
–
karl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –
What you are suggesting Terry is TOTAL ANARCHY.
The beauty/practicality of current Concours Rules is that drawing the line
at FACTORY AUTHENTIC gives you a clear/researchable/documented demarcation.
ACJC and JCNA go over this demarcation line as a matter of POLICY for
specific detailed things, so still a clear/researchable/documented
demarcation BUT introduces controversy, as it would seem both you and I
agree that it is total bullshit that ACJC now allows Electronic Toll Devices
on Windscreens and added Burglar Alarms, but you would appear to think an
Australian made one-off hardtop made in the late 1950s of dubious/
unsubstantiated “trust-me” providence should be acceptable for:- ?
- All XK120/140 roadsters.
- All XK140 roadsters.
- All RHD XK140 roadsters
- All RHD roadsters sold new in Australia
- Just the one RHD XK140 roadster that you claim had this hardtop fitted
to in Australia the 1950s.
Not sure what you thinking/hoping - I suspect 2 above, given the XK140
roadster you are building up comprises components sourced from USA origin
LHD XK140s.
But that is exactly what I tried to explain:-
Concours Rules regarding Originality/Authenticity are required black and
white standards that can be managed/judged in a competitive environment,
with the rules established, and able to be modified by the Owners of the
Rules under whatever arrangements allow changes to be made - but at the end
of the day they can be modified by a voting/consensus arrangement of
majority support.
The JDCC voted against added Burglar Alarms and added Electronic Toll
Devices, but we were outvoted by the lobbied-support of those with the
vested interest to allow. How did JDCWA vote?.
I look forward to the submission from JDCWA to now allow as a
matter-of-Policy, Australian Made hardtops from the late 1950s to be fitted
to ex-USA LHD XK140 roadsters; but will give you a heads up - JDCC will vote
against.
But then with your views on allowing any factory or non-factory accessory/
modification to be fitted aftermarket, why not really excel, and suggest
allowing the fitting of a 1950s FORD V8 engine and Automatic Transmission
which happened to more than just one XK140 in the USA. We have an ex-USA
XK140 FHC here in Canberra that has just spent a lot of time/effort getting
rid of its ‘period’ FORD V8, and now has a correct period XK140 engine
refitted (not matching No.) and Moss-Box re-fitted, but I am sure he would
be delighted to sell you his surplus Ford V8/Auto, ‘known’ to have been a
period/aftermarket/non-fcatory fitted accessory to an XK140.
Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
Terry Mcgrath
Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2014 6:17 PM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [xk] racing windshield XK140
Hang on!
If your XK140 left the factory with the water activated sticker on the
screen listing the cars particulars
ie
commission no
engine no
piston type and grade
gearbox no
axle type number and ratio
Shock absorber part numbers
Speedo No
Body number
colour
trim colour
headlining colour
key numbers
special equipment
It would mean that the sticker should still be on the screen at the point of
judging, same with protective covering on chrome and if your car came in a
create with the wheels off I want to see it presented that way complete with
crate with chassis number stencilled on it!!!
Once it gets to the dealer surely the dealer can prepare the car for sale
and fit factory authorised accessories ie W/W on a disc wheel car, radio,
mirrors etc etc etc
There were accessories catalogued and authorised by Jaguar North America a
company wholly and solely owned by Jaguar cars Ltd therefore it could be
said authorised by them ie nudge bars on an XK140 etc
The rules are way incorrect and don’t take account of real life situations
and given the state of concours in Australia probably have a lot to do with
it. You can fit some modern electronic gadget to your car and leave it on
for judging cos your to lazy to remove but you can’t have some 50 year old
accessory!
As to XK140’s whilst there may not be a piece of paper in the hands of a few
enthusiasts this is meaningless as to what accessories were officially and
actually available to customers and that were fitted officially by dealers
or sold as spare parts and fitted by owners or fitted at the factory shortly
after delivery.
As to aeroscreens on XK140 no there may not be a smoking gun saying they
were an option but the 100 or more XK140 roadsters pictured in various motor
sport magazines of the 1950’s tells me that they were readily available
through the dealers and if the correct factory made items should be accepted
as correct fitment on an XK140 roadster.
If we had the cards that the cars were built from that included every item
and detail fitted to the car at the point of manufacture
and to quote a few cards
XK140 roadster 9-1 comp, 2 inch carbs, competition clutch, CR gearbox, 3.77
axle, valve clearances .006 and .010
another that notes biscuit trim in an XK140 FHC with red carpets
or the special equipment XK140DHC with A/T and disc wheels and no interior
rear view mirror!
Things would be a lot more interesting
I personally love to see cars with period accessories both of a factory and
non factory nature.
My own XK140 roadster will have a fastback hardtop fitted that was made in
the late 1950’s for a RHD 140 roadster by one of Australia’s top 1950’s race
car body builders. This is designed to be removed and the standard
convertible roof used.
terry
In Australia - ORIGINAL means literally the ORIGINAL item/finish/condition
that a particular specific XK was despatched from the factory - so it’s a
very clear demarcation. Anything that happened to the car after it was
officially despatched from the factory that added to, altered, or changed is
therefore NOT ORIGINAL. So once it arrived at the docks, at the UK
dealership, or at the export distributor/dealership if they chose to do
anything to the car even though still ‘new’ and not yet sold/delivered to
first customer - its still not original.
Roger
The wag in me sees an unlimited opportunity for writing authentication
manuals.
But then, who would authenticate them?
On second thought, stick to your guns, please.
All the best
KlausOn 11/26/14 5:37 PM, “Roger Payne” rogerpayne@bigblue.net.au wrote:
What you are suggesting Terry is TOTAL ANARCHY.
The beauty/practicality of current Concours Rules is that drawing the line
at FACTORY AUTHENTIC gives you a clear/researchable/documented
demarcation.ACJC and JCNA go over this demarcation line as a matter of POLICY for
specific detailed things, so still a clear/researchable/documented
demarcation BUT introduces controversy, as it would seem both you and I
agree that it is total bullshit that ACJC now allows Electronic Toll
Devices
on Windscreens and added Burglar Alarms, but you would appear to think an
Australian made one-off hardtop made in the late 1950s of dubious/
unsubstantiated “trust-me” providence should be acceptable for:- ?
- All XK120/140 roadsters.
- All XK140 roadsters.
- All RHD XK140 roadsters
- All RHD roadsters sold new in Australia
- Just the one RHD XK140 roadster that you claim had this hardtop
fitted
to in Australia the 1950s.Not sure what you thinking/hoping - I suspect 2 above, given the XK140
roadster you are building up comprises components sourced from USA origin
LHD XK140s.But that is exactly what I tried to explain:-
Concours Rules regarding Originality/Authenticity are required black and
white standards that can be managed/judged in a competitive environment,
with the rules established, and able to be modified by the Owners of the
Rules under whatever arrangements allow changes to be made - but at the
end
of the day they can be modified by a voting/consensus arrangement of
majority support.
The JDCC voted against added Burglar Alarms and added Electronic Toll
Devices, but we were outvoted by the lobbied-support of those with the
vested interest to allow. How did JDCWA vote?.I look forward to the submission from JDCWA to now allow as a
matter-of-Policy, Australian Made hardtops from the late 1950s to be
fitted
to ex-USA LHD XK140 roadsters; but will give you a heads up - JDCC will
vote
against.But then with your views on allowing any factory or non-factory accessory/
modification to be fitted aftermarket, why not really excel, and suggest
allowing the fitting of a 1950s FORD V8 engine and Automatic Transmission
which happened to more than just one XK140 in the USA. We have an ex-USA
XK140 FHC here in Canberra that has just spent a lot of time/effort
getting
rid of its ‘period’ FORD V8, and now has a correct period XK140 engine
refitted (not matching No.) and Moss-Box re-fitted, but I am sure he would
be delighted to sell you his surplus Ford V8/Auto, ‘known’ to have been a
period/aftermarket/non-fcatory fitted accessory to an XK140.Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf
Of
Terry Mcgrath
Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2014 6:17 PM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [xk] racing windshield XK140Hang on!
If your XK140 left the factory with the water activated sticker on the
screen listing the cars particulars
ie
commission no
engine no
piston type and grade
gearbox no
axle type number and ratio
Shock absorber part numbers
Speedo No
Body number
colour
trim colour
headlining colour
key numbers
special equipmentIt would mean that the sticker should still be on the screen at the point
ofjudging, same with protective covering on chrome and if your car came in
a
create with the wheels off I want to see it presented that way complete
withcrate with chassis number stencilled on it!!!
Once it gets to the dealer surely the dealer can prepare the car for sale
and fit factory authorised accessories ie W/W on a disc wheel car,
radio,
mirrors etc etc etc
There were accessories catalogued and authorised by Jaguar North America
a
company wholly and solely owned by Jaguar cars Ltd therefore it could be
said authorised by them ie nudge bars on an XK140 etcThe rules are way incorrect and don’t take account of real life
situations
and given the state of concours in Australia probably have a lot to do
with
it. You can fit some modern electronic gadget to your car and leave it on
for judging cos your to lazy to remove but you can’t have some 50 year
old
accessory!As to XK140’s whilst there may not be a piece of paper in the hands of a
fewenthusiasts this is meaningless as to what accessories were officially
and
actually available to customers and that were fitted officially by
dealers
or sold as spare parts and fitted by owners or fitted at the factory
shortlyafter delivery.
As to aeroscreens on XK140 no there may not be a smoking gun saying they
were an option but the 100 or more XK140 roadsters pictured in various
motorsport magazines of the 1950’s tells me that they were readily available
through the dealers and if the correct factory made items should be
acceptedas correct fitment on an XK140 roadster.
If we had the cards that the cars were built from that included every
item
and detail fitted to the car at the point of manufacture
and to quote a few cards
XK140 roadster 9-1 comp, 2 inch carbs, competition clutch, CR gearbox,
3.77
axle, valve clearances .006 and .010
another that notes biscuit trim in an XK140 FHC with red carpets
or the special equipment XK140DHC with A/T and disc wheels and no
interior
rear view mirror!Things would be a lot more interesting
I personally love to see cars with period accessories both of a factory
and
non factory nature.
My own XK140 roadster will have a fastback hardtop fitted that was made
in
the late 1950’s for a RHD 140 roadster by one of Australia’s top 1950’s
racecar body builders. This is designed to be removed and the standard
convertible roof used.terry
In Australia - ORIGINAL means literally the ORIGINAL item/finish/condition
that a particular specific XK was despatched from the factory - so it’s a
very clear demarcation. Anything that happened to the car after it was
officially despatched from the factory that added to, altered, or changed
is
therefore NOT ORIGINAL. So once it arrived at the docks, at the UK
dealership, or at the export distributor/dealership if they chose to do
anything to the car even though still ‘new’ and not yet sold/delivered to
first customer - its still not original.
In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Wed 26 Nov 2014:
So… Is Terry saying that MK IV Jaguars should lose points for a
Mascot over riders and fog lamp brackets because the Australia
delivered cars were sent without them and they were made here for
tax reasons
And Terry’s book has a picture of a MK V being unloaded here
with no wheels .
Aero screens weren’t an ‘option’ on factory bodied SS100s , they
were standard and specially made for SS100s.–
The original message included these comments:
As to aeroscreens on XK140 no there may not be a smoking gun saying they
were an option but the 100 or more XK140 roadsters pictured in various motor
sport magazines of the 1950’s tells me that they were readily available
through the dealers and if the correct factory made items should be accepted
as correct fitment on an XK140 roadster.
terry
In Australia - ORIGINAL means literally the ORIGINAL item/finish/condition
that a particular specific XK was despatched from the factory - so it’s a
very clear demarcation. Anything that happened to the car after it was
officially despatched from the factory that added to, altered, or changed is
therefore NOT ORIGINAL. So once it arrived at the docks, at the UK
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –
In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Mon 1 Dec 2014:
Ha, ha, ha!
I think the wheels were somewhere in the crate. Tires on the
other hand…
So USA delivery Mark Vs and XK120s are ok with turn signals
but deducted for having the signal flasher and headlights?
New Zealand delivery Mark V saloons for having a body…–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from Rob Reilly sent Tue 2 Dec 2014:
Look for a spike in the value of 1953 Cosmoline when word gets
out.
Karl–
karl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from karl sent Tue 2 Dec 2014:
For the right price I might be able to be coaxed out of some…But
then again it probably has post production dust in it.–
The original message included these comments:
Look for a spike in the value of 1953 Cosmoline when word gets
out.
–
godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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Rob reilly has really nailed it,
If you were unlucky enough to own a NZ assembled MKV or an Irish assembled
XK120 or even one of the D types that was delivered in CKD form under the
archaic judging systems maybe more so the Australian one and Rogers
statement you would need to present your car in CKD format a bit like a
cupboard you picked up at IKEA!
MKV’s in packing cases would need to shown wheels off possibly still in the
packing case as would some of the XK140’s delivered in packing cases.
As to edd’s comments Its not me saying MK IV Jaguars should lose points for
Australian mascots cast brass overriders in lieu of clamp on and foglight
brackets to remove spotlights off the bumper line it is the ACJC national
rally judging manual.
I personally would not deduct any points for a period accessory from an
authencity point of view it stills needs to be clean and in good condition
particularly given you can 3 or so pieces of modern junk and loose no points
on your MKIV.
Rules usually don’t work as no one can write a rule to cover everything and
when they do it usually means there are more loop holes and no one
understands whats written!
terry
PS taking it one step further no replica part would score any points ie
wings, body parts, chassis and everything else as almost every part supplied
is incorrect and isn’t as supplied by the factory and this would include
most/all the trim materials there would be no 99 point cars in the USA and
95 point cars in Australia they would all be 75-80 point cars!
Ha, ha, ha!
I think the wheels were somewhere in the crate. Tires on the
other hand…
So USA delivery Mark Vs and XK120s are ok with turn signals
but deducted for having the signal flasher and headlights?
New Zealand delivery Mark V saloons for having a body…
So… Is Terry saying that MK IV Jaguars should lose points for a
Mascot over riders and fog lamp brackets because the Australia
delivered cars were sent without them and they were made here for
tax reasons