[xk] racing windshield XK140

XK
21

In reply to a message from Terry Mcgrath sent Thu 4 Dec 2014:

There was, as always , much disagreement after the last JCC
concours, in this case over the number of flutes in a 1940 SS
P100 headlamps lense.

The Jaguar parts list and the Lucas did not agree.

My suggestion which is being implemented is that as a car
delivered in 1940 and driven to Switzerland would have had to
have war time head lamp shields fitted, and as the owner still
has them, they should be restored and fitted.

This is being done and hopefully will stick it up the poobahs
in the Jag Club as they try to count the number of flutes : >)–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

1 Like
22

In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Thu 4 Dec 2014:

I certainly don’t mean to disparage anybody’s efforts to try
to figure out how to do judging in any context. I know first
hand how hard it is, as my own Mark V guide was submitted
nearly a year ago but is backburnered in favor of a more
pressing XK120 guide. It’s just that once in awhile things
tickle my funny bone and I hope others can smile a bit at a
silly misinterpretation.

The general intent seems to be to reward cars that are
presented in the spirit most closely akin to that in which
Sir William intended them to be turned over to his customers.

Everyone will agree that he intended them to have headlights
and tires, but whether UK made or locally made due to
respective laws, Bill didn’t lose any sleep over it. Certain
performance and appearance accessories such as twin exhaust
and Rimbellishers received the Lyons approval, but Weber
carbs and roof racks did not.

The original post in this thread was about racing screens on
XK140 OTS. They are listed in my copy of the XK140 parts
catalogue on pages 157-159. Cut-away spats and special wings
incorporating DZUS fasteners for use with wire wheel spats
are listed on page 161. A luggage rack for the boot lid
appears on page 162. But I did not find an OTS hardtop.

My own car has marker lights as required for the French
markets. I think I would be unhappy to be dinged for them
simply because they are not in the parts catalogue. But I
don’t expect to receive any extra credit for them either.
Since they have been on the car probably from the day it
drove off the channel ferry, I would hope they would be
judged on equal par with all the standard external lights,
or ignored.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

23

Terry McG;
Serious question… Were the crated/CKD. etc., MKIV, MKV,
XK120, XK140, etc. fully assembled at the factory THEN
disassembled/knocked-down, etc. for delivery to foreign lands,
penal colonies, etc.?? Or were the Jags PULLED-OFF the
assembly line at a certain stage of “incomplete” then crated,
etc.?
I ask for a serious reason… Assuming ALL 1930ish and post-
war Jaguars were Fully Assembled on the “line” THEN later
disassembled for delivery (logical as most likely it would be
unknown which exact cars were to be exported), the simple
wording for ALL judging entities (possibly aiming towards a
universal/world-wide “Standard” (Gasp!!) would be that ALL
Jags be judged in an “As Left Factory Condition” (the word
“Factory” implying the assembly line)… I doubt the most asinine,
anal-retentive could find fault with that statement AND it would
settle, once and for all the “claims” of “My 1950 OTS Jag was
fitted with a genuine 429cid Ford Side-Oiler Nascar Engine when I
bought the car new from the dealership”…
What think ye??
Charles #677556.
http://xktx.org----- Original Message -----
From: “Terry Mcgrath”

Rob reilly has really nailed it,

If you were unlucky enough to own a NZ assembled MKV or an Irish assembled
XK120 or even one of the D types that was delivered in CKD form under the
archaic judging systems maybe more so the Australian one and Rogers
statement you would need to present your car in CKD format a bit like a
cupboard you picked up at IKEA!

24

charles,
a serious answer whilst exact information is not available as to exactly how
ckd cars left the factory my understanding is that say the XK120’s to Eire
and MKV’s that went to NZ had the bodies welded together and bolted to the
chassis but left unpainted and unassembled so it was a matter of the body
shell being painted all of the components bolted on and then the car was
trimmed using local materials.
MKI’s may have been assembled in mexico??
and later XJ6’s assembled in South Africa where much the same ie bodies
painted in Sth Africa all trimming using trim materials sourced in Sth
Africa and in fact a number of heavy items actually sourced/made in South
Africa ie brake discs it was a matter of bringing the local content/labour
up to reduce the tax paid.

Obviously more information on this subject would be great all the chassis
numbers for the XK120’s to Ireland are available as are the chassis numbers
for the MKV’s to NZ. The NZ cars had a revised chassis number.
I don’t know of any MKIV’s sent as ckd as such but having said that there
maybe something to Belgium.

Back onto concour judging the SS1 chassis’s that left as rolling chassis’s
with a set of body drawings would score very few points at a car show if
presented with local bodies as would all the coachbuilt later chassis that
left including the 6 or so SS100 chassis that left as rolling chassis.
When I noted the D type that left as ckd the way I worded it made it sound
like there was more than one but there was just the one car like this. Oh
yes then there where the few odd jags particularly a couple of XK140’s that
left without paint, now that would be an interesting car to see at a car
show!

terryDate: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 16:54:27 -0600
From: cb@XKTX.Org
Subject: Re: [xk] racing windshield XK140

Terry McG;
Serious question… Were the crated/CKD. etc., MKIV, MKV,
XK120, XK140, etc. fully assembled at the factory THEN
disassembled/knocked-down, etc. for delivery to foreign lands,
penal colonies, etc.?? Or were the Jags PULLED-OFF the
assembly line at a certain stage of “incomplete” then crated,
etc.?
I ask for a serious reason… Assuming ALL 1930ish and post-
war Jaguars were Fully Assembled on the “line” THEN later
disassembled for delivery (logical as most likely it would be
unknown which exact cars were to be exported), the simple
wording for ALL judging entities (possibly aiming towards a
universal/world-wide “Standard” (Gasp!!) would be that ALL
Jags be judged in an “As Left Factory Condition” (the word
“Factory” implying the assembly line)… I doubt the most asinine,
anal-retentive could find fault with that statement AND it would
settle, once and for all the “claims” of “My 1950 OTS Jag was
fitted with a genuine 429cid Ford Side-Oiler Nascar Engine when I
bought the car new from the dealership”…
What think ye??
Charles #677556.
http://xktx.org

  • ----- Original Message -----
    From: “Terry Mcgrath”

Rob reilly has really nailed it,

If you were unlucky enough to own a NZ assembled MKV or an Irish assembled
XK120 or even one of the D types that was delivered in CKD form under the
archaic judging systems maybe more so the Australian one and Rogers
statement you would need to present your car in CKD format a bit like a
cupboard you picked up at IKEA!

25

Terry McG;
I appreciate the in-depth info… While I never claimed to be any
form of “Jaguar Expert”, I have read a fair number of books on the
marque (apparently the wrong ones) and never read a word about
Jaguars being built anywhere but Coventry… tho I had heard that
“some” MK I OEM Parts were originally Made in Mexico, but not
the entire vehicle… Your information has educated and enlightened
me… It is appreciated and enjoyed… Thanks,
Charles #677556.
http://xktx.org----- Original Message -----
From: “Terry Mcgrath”

charles,
a serious answer whilst exact information is not available as to exactly
how ckd cars left the factory my understanding is that say the XK120’s to
Eire and MKV’s that went to NZ had the bodies welded together and bolted
to the chassis but left unpainted and unassembled so it was a matter of
the body shell being painted all of the components bolted on and then the
car was trimmed using local materials.
MKI’s may have been assembled in mexico??
and later XJ6’s assembled in South Africa where much the same ie bodies
painted in Sth Africa all trimming using trim materials sourced in Sth
Africa and in fact a number of heavy items actually sourced/made in South
Africa ie brake discs it was a matter of bringing the local content/labour
up to reduce the tax paid.

Obviously more information on this subject would be great all the chassis
numbers for the XK120’s to Ireland are available as are the chassis
numbers for the MKV’s to NZ. The NZ cars had a revised chassis number.
I don’t know of any MKIV’s sent as ckd as such but having said that there
maybe something to Belgium.

Back onto concour judging the SS1 chassis’s that left as rolling chassis’s
with a set of body drawings would score very few points at a car show if
presented with local bodies as would all the coachbuilt later chassis that
left including the 6 or so SS100 chassis that left as rolling chassis.
When I noted the D type that left as ckd the way I worded it made it sound
like there was more than one but there was just the one car like this. Oh
yes then there where the few odd jags particularly a couple of XK140’s
that left without paint, now that would be an interesting car to see at a
car show!

terry

26

Terry,

You really make this UNNECCESARILY COMPLICATED.

ACJC Concours Rules (and I dare say JCNA as well) clearly have a set of
AUTHENTICITY RULES that apply, and work quite well for 99+% of the SS and
Jaguars that get Judged.

But both sets of Rules do adequately provide for the <1% of cars that do not
present as can be reasonably expected for the other 99+% - just simply say,
if you have a car that you wish to enter a Concourse that is one of the <1%,
then be prepared to justify/prove what cannot be reasonably expected of any
Judge to know instantaneously.

So if Ivan Stevens wishes to enter his Australian bodied 1932 SS1 chassis in
an ACJC Concours, then there is enough local knowledge about its “as new”
condition, and it would be judged accordingly, or be given the benefit of
the considerable doubt.

If a rare surviving NZ bodied Mark V was entered in an ACJC Concourse (sorry
don’t know the NZ rules - and cannot imagine any of the rare survivors
likely to appear in anything other than an NZ or ACJC Concourse), then again

  • it would be Judged based on knowledge of the NZ assembled idiosyncrasies,
    or given the benefit of doubt.

NZ CKD XJ6 for instance - had their own local range of colours quite
different to the Coventry painted cars - I have a NZ Colour Chart (Have to
say - pretty horrible cf the Coventry colours)

The one-off CKD D-type - heaven forbid, talk about making a mountain out of
a molehill, would be also judged based on accepted international knowledge
of its origins.

But all of the above are really totally irrelevant RED HERRINGS.

The Concours Judging system does work perfectly well (with flaws) for 99+%
of cars entered/judged, and if any of the remaining <1% ever front up to be
judged, the Rules already provide for them to be fairly/appropriately
assessed according to their known/or benefit-of-doubt peculiarities.

And if you are still not happy, ACJC at least allows you to make a
submission to change/modify the RULES - but you need to get a CONSENSUS
decision to support your desired change.

No big deal about any XK140 that left factory without paint - can be
presented in any one of the correct/period XK140 colours without penalty, or
if owner can prove its original colour then that’s OK as well - and I would
be happy with either the PRIMER, or whatever COLOUR was first applied - ex
factory. Again no big deal - the RULES accommodate quite OK

But sorry - doesn’t matter how many RED HERRINGS you throw at this quite
irrelevant subject to create a smoke-screen, no way I can see ACJC ever
legitimising a dubious origin/credentialed ‘one-off’ Australian made XK140
fibre-glass hardtop as being anything - but - a home made ‘one-off’ that has
no place in any discussion about XK140 authenticity.

But I do support your interests/endeavours to find out more about these <1%
cars - as if indeed, one was ever to be presented in a Concours, it would be
useful to know exactly what to look for in say an Irish assembled XK120,
that differed from a Coventry assembled XK120, albeit, who really cares
about the strange NZ colour choices for a Series 2 XJ6

Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
Terry Mcgrath
Sent: Saturday, 6 December 2014 2:14 PM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [xk] racing windshield XK140

charles,
a serious answer whilst exact information is not available as to exactly how

ckd cars left the factory my understanding is that say the XK120’s to Eire
and MKV’s that went to NZ had the bodies welded together and bolted to the
chassis but left unpainted and unassembled so it was a matter of the body
shell being painted all of the components bolted on and then the car was
trimmed using local materials.
MKI’s may have been assembled in mexico??
and later XJ6’s assembled in South Africa where much the same ie bodies
painted in Sth Africa all trimming using trim materials sourced in Sth
Africa and in fact a number of heavy items actually sourced/made in South
Africa ie brake discs it was a matter of bringing the local content/labour
up to reduce the tax paid.

Obviously more information on this subject would be great all the chassis
numbers for the XK120’s to Ireland are available as are the chassis numbers
for the MKV’s to NZ. The NZ cars had a revised chassis number.
I don’t know of any MKIV’s sent as ckd as such but having said that there
maybe something to Belgium.

Back onto concour judging the SS1 chassis’s that left as rolling chassis’s
with a set of body drawings would score very few points at a car show if
presented with local bodies as would all the coachbuilt later chassis that
left including the 6 or so SS100 chassis that left as rolling chassis.
When I noted the D type that left as ckd the way I worded it made it sound
like there was more than one but there was just the one car like this. Oh
yes then there where the few odd jags particularly a couple of XK140’s that
left without paint, now that would be an interesting car to see at a car
show!

terry

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 16:54:27 -0600
From: cb@XKTX.Org
Subject: Re: [xk] racing windshield XK140

Terry McG;
Serious question… Were the crated/CKD. etc., MKIV, MKV,
XK120, XK140, etc. fully assembled at the factory THEN
disassembled/knocked-down, etc. for delivery to foreign lands,
penal colonies, etc.?? Or were the Jags PULLED-OFF the
assembly line at a certain stage of “incomplete” then crated,
etc.?
I ask for a serious reason… Assuming ALL 1930ish and post-
war Jaguars were Fully Assembled on the “line” THEN later
disassembled for delivery (logical as most likely it would be
unknown which exact cars were to be exported), the simple
wording for ALL judging entities (possibly aiming towards a
universal/world-wide “Standard” (Gasp!!) would be that ALL
Jags be judged in an “As Left Factory Condition” (the word
“Factory” implying the assembly line)… I doubt the most asinine,
anal-retentive could find fault with that statement AND it would
settle, once and for all the “claims” of “My 1950 OTS Jag was
fitted with a genuine 429cid Ford Side-Oiler Nascar Engine when I
bought the car new from the dealership”…
What think ye??
Charles #677556.
http://xktx.org

  • ----- Original Message -----
    From: “Terry Mcgrath”

Rob reilly has really nailed it,

If you were unlucky enough to own a NZ assembled MKV or an Irish assembled
XK120 or even one of the D types that was delivered in CKD form under the
archaic judging systems maybe more so the Australian one and Rogers
statement you would need to present your car in CKD format a bit like a
cupboard you picked up at IKEA!

27

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Sat 6 Dec 2014:

Hi Roger, I assume your red herrings are authentic RAL3000
Flame red…:slight_smile:

Cheers,
Mark–
The original message included these comments:

But all of the above are really totally irrelevant RED HERRINGS.

–
1953 XK120SE FHC S681167
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

28

In reply to a message from Luxo sent Sat 6 Dec 2014:

One slight correction, CKD Mark V saloons to Belgium and New
Zealand were given a special BODY number beginning with the
letters PP, where the normal letter was G; there was nothing
unusual about the chassis number. A few of them survive.

Allan Crouch’s SS book has a list of all Mark V delivered
colors and reports there were 85 CKD cars with no color
given, nearly all having either biscuit or red interior. He
says the cars to NZ were sent as crated up grouped
components kits, thus some component serial numbers didn’t
match what was stamped on the factory lube data plates, and
upholstery was done by Shorter of Auckland using local leather.

Also 9 in primer which may have gone to Brooking of Perth, 5
chassis only, 5 not recorded, and 34 in special colors. He
gives a list of those colors, a couple of which later became
standard 120/Mk7 colors, makes you wonder if it was Lyons
experimenting with new ideas.

Thus anyone presenting one of these unusual cars for judging
would do well to bring along this book.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

29

I am not trying to legitmise an Australian made hardtop and in fact it is a
clip on clip off item still retaining original convertible frame so I have
no problems.
I also wouldn’t be trying to enter a concours anyway!
I was picking up on the statement that seemed to have been made that cars
were judged as they left the factory and bringing some humour maybe to the
discussion!
I do personally like the period accessories from Lucas, Bryson’s, Jaguar
North America etc and given this is how many cars were owned and driven in
the period I personally can see no reason why they should not be allowed
today as a nil points deduction OK they need to be presented in good
condition and clean.

terry

PS the hardtop is not really of dubious origin I have a newspaper clipping
dating from late 1950’s noting its fitment to the XK140 roadster and I
purchased it from the owner of this car additionally its not fibreglass but
the most superbly panelled aluminium and is exceptionally well made and is
extremely light

But sorry - doesn’t matter how many RED HERRINGS you throw at this quite
irrelevant subject to create a smoke-screen, no way I can see ACJC ever
legitimising a dubious origin/credentialed ‘one-off’ Australian made XK140
fibre-glass hardtop as being anything - but - a home made ‘one-off’ that has
no place in any discussion about XK140 authenticity.

30

sorry to see this thread taper off it was so interesting!

1 Like
31

Terry. I agree. I had a simple question that turned into a major discussion which was really interesting. I now have two restored XK140 roadsters that I drive frequently in Florida, but don’t show them. One has the aero screens and one doesn’t. I love the looks of the small screens, but the original screen is so much better from a comfort stand point. One gets totally blasted with the aero screens while going over 40 miles an hour. However, the original screen its very civilized at 60 mph or more. Bottom line is I love both cars, but the screens make a huge difference both in driving and in looks. All the best, Don in Florida

32

Don:

At one stage prior to getting my XK I owned a 1954 M.G. TF. It had a windshield that could be folded flat across the bonnet. I only ever drove it once with the windshield down as even at modest speeds around town the slipstream almost took your head off. I’m all for aesthetics, but…

Chris.

33

Chris. With the aero screens I need to wear ear plugs or a helmet with ear covers to enjoy the drive at road speed. I am wondering since basically all the XK touring and race cars seem to utilize the areo screens if anyone has ever done a comparative study about the gain in speed with them. I would guess that they are at least 25lbs lighter but it would seem the aerodynamic aren’t as good unless the driver is wearing one of those pointed helmets like the bicycle racers wear - just joking. Does anyone have any actually numbers on comparing the two? Don Etchison

34

Don:

Aerodynamics are interesting. While I don’t have any figures with respect to windscreen versus racing screen I do remember being surprised to read that the single-seat car Lister built for Ecurie Ecosse to use in the 1958 Monzanapolis race turned out to be slower than the D-types. The reason it seems was the drag created by the exposed tyres. I find hearing (although it is fading, too much Hendrix in my youth!) is important while driving with respect to gear shifts. Not sure about you, but often I tend to go on the engine note when going up the box and on blustery days with a crosswind all of a sudden that is severely impacted in an open car. Finally, have you ever noticed how many more bugs your ‘slippery’ XK collects as opposed to your modern daily runner?

Chris.

35

Dear @etch , any suggestion where to buy the cowls for the XK 140?thanks

36

Welcome to the gang!

Here’s one source…

https://mossmotors.com/racing-screen

1 Like
37

Tom.

Sorry I don’t know, but they should not be hard to find from the usual sources.

All the best.

Don

1 Like
38

How did you go with aeroscreens bases.I have had the correct glass cut for these screens
terry

39

When I got the car in 2014 they were already on it. Small bolts hold the windscreen housing on to the cowl. I’ve recently removed the aero screens and put the stock windscreen back on.