In a message dated 11/27/2000 2:55:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
haehnle@bluewin.ch writes:
<< Urs Schmid made picture of this pigskin pattern to use
in his forecoming 2.book on XK 120’s interiors, body etc.). >>
REALLY! So faux pigskin was used on some 120’s? LOVE it! Aside from the
interesting character of the leather, when one was pulled over, one could
point out ones upholstery and what it was! Sure to elicit a few swipes with
the truncheon.
Michael @ Toad Manor
11/27/00
Hi Michael @ Toad Manor & all – Michael, JVC 411 (chassis # 623053), the
sole surviving XK-engined Mk V of two built (called a Mk VI, and built for
William Lyons’ use in '50 and '51) has a tan pigskin interior. It’s being
preserved (and occasionally driven) by owner Tony Otolo in Medford MA USA.
It’s the subject of a feature in Paul Skilleter’s CLASSIC JAGUAR WORLD,
Vol. 12 No. 10, November 2000, PP/18-21. So – pigskin, while VERY rare,
was NOT unique to the XK120, eh! Take care – Larry Martz*****
In a message dated 11/27/2000 2:55:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
haehnle@bluewin.ch writes:
<< Urs Schmid made picture of this pigskin pattern to use
in his forecoming 2.book on XK 120’s interiors, body etc.). >>
REALLY! So faux pigskin was used on some 120’s? LOVE it! Aside from the
interesting character of the leather, when one was pulled over, one could
point out ones upholstery and what it was! Sure to elicit a few swipes with
the truncheon.
Michael @ Toad Manor
its amazing to find some of these topics
I am more leaning towards the fact that even though many XK120’s have a trim colour combination of Biscuit and pigskin that there is no such actual colour as pigskin it is only a grain effect and the colour should be called biscuit & tan!
any comments?
roger payne does believe that pigskin is a colour but exactly what colour?
terry
Terry,
100% disagree.
My factory March 1950 Leather Samples booklet lists all six colour leather/samples in its INDEX page……
You will note, sample No.2 … is Pigskin - Grain and sample No.7 … is Tan.
The Pigskin - Grain is a distinctly different colour to the Tan, and indeed in the sample of the Pigskin you can see the hair-follicle holes typical of Pig leather, as opposed to Cow leather, as used for the other six colours.
I don’t have a photo on file of the two colours side by side - they are in the same booklet - and am loath to show electronic photos as actual colour displayed in a photo, and then on a screen, will always look different from the leather colour in hand (note the No.1 … RED in the photo, quite different to actual sample). I have compared a sample piece of real TAN leather out of a Dec 1951 Mark VII I parted out, and as expected it was identical colour to the No.7 TAN sample in my March 1950 booklet, and although I haven’t similarly checked some ex-XK120 PIGSKIN against the No. 2 sample, I have zero doubt that it would also be an exact match.
Next time you are in Canberra, you are welcome to have a look at this 1950 Leather Sample book, and see the very real difference in both colour and pig-leather texture verses cow-leather, but NO - will not lend it.
PIGSKIN as an available XK colour was very short-lived, and indeed this March 1950 booklet is the only one I am aware of that includes sample No.2 … PIGSKIN - GRAIN. I am not sure how often these booklets were issued, but the next two I have dated February 1956 and February 1957 both only show, and index No.1 then No.3 to No.7 exactly as per the 1950 booklet, simply deleting No.2. But there are some changes in the colours included and their position, but No.7 remains always the same TAN both in name and in exact shade of leather colour. The No.3 BISCUIT colour is discontinued and substituted with SUEDE GREEN (that was No.4). The new No.4 is a new colour BLUE, and the old No.5 BLUE is now renamed DARK BLUE. No.6 remains GREY. So, I am pretty happy I have XK120/140 period covered, albeit there is no inclusion of BLACK in any of these earlier booklets, but it is first included in a 1958 booklet I have, the first of the expanded/revised format booklets.
thanks for info and pic of booklet.
Connolly do not list a colour called pigskin but certainly used this expression as the grain finish.
don’t forget that the leather is probably almost certainly not pigskin but strictly a grain effect applied to cow hide they had a 8ft x 4ft sheet of steel with a pattern engraved into it with vertical needles protruding from it and the leather was pressed that they gave the bristle effect.
In your booklet given I know what the tan colour is I assume pigskin will be substantially lighter in colour?
It sounds like jaguar have taken a Connolly leather colour and given it there own name similar to the stuff up between light blue and grey?
terry
See Urs Schmid XK120 Anatomy Volume 2 page 164.
For all I know these may be photos of Roger’s booklet.
The tan is a little bit darker than the pigskin, and both are much darker than biscuit. This tan is much darker than what I would have called tan, in fact I would have called it brown.
In America we call a football a pigskin and it is usually about the color of this pigskin sample. Or sometimes the tan sample. So perhaps this is a source of confusion about these color names. They both look like an American football.
Most definitely Rob,
Urs photos are indeed my photos from my March 1950 booklet - the giveaway is the rear cover Dealer stamping…
I spent a lot of time trying to produce true-to-life colours, and then Urs further edited my photos, and then the electric photos were printed!. So a reasonable end result, showing general colours and thus relativities, but still not something to exactly colour match.
Now in response to Terry’s latest ……………
I am quite convinced the Pigskin-Grain as used by Jaguar, was indeed genuine Pig Skin leather - and not just cow hide made to look like pig skin. Google it. Pigskin was indeed a commonly used leather, but is identifiable after curing/tanning/dyeing by the holes from the pigs hair follicles. See attached close up of my No.2 - Pigskin-Grain sample - actually a cropped piece from the photo in Urs’ book………
Actual colour shade not to bad on my screen, but definitely distinctly lighter than the XK120 era TAN.
Bear in mind, colour NAMES are just that - names; so same as paint colours, but in this case PIGSKIN is a distinctly different colour to TAN
Roger, if you are interested in the origins of your leather samples booklet, I started a separate topic on the owner of Cornett International Motors, Denver Cornett Jr.
OK colour is not that much lighter than tan and certainly will be keen to see tan sample and “pigskin” colour samples side by side one day.
I will disagree that it is actual skin of a pig firstly you could imagine potential problems with sales to certain ethnic groups.
The other reason is that as I noted Jaguar had sheets of heavy steel and they pressed the grain into the leather and they had in 1993 the actual sheet of steel for pigskin it had the pattern and series of spike like needles protruding from it with left the holes like pig bristles.
The third reason is having copied most of the late 30’s through to late 50’s actual leather sample on cards with actual date of order and reference to letter from jaguar there is no card for pigskin colour this indicates Connolly didn’t sell Jaguar a colour called pigskin but they do note “pigskin grain”
Same as Jaguar confusing the name of grey VM3230 and light blue Vm3244 leather from Connolly ie the bob clare situation trimming seats the wrong colour because he ordered the jaguar colour name from Connolly but of course he got the correct Connolly colour not what jaguar called it several others have been caught on this same grey light blue situation.
biscuit luxan Vaumol VM3244 JC 16-11-1948
Terra FG 1093 printed crushed antique FG/PAC 3280 JC 3-1950 Connolly note same colour as VM3233
Beige FG 1051 PR &CR antique PAC AN FG 3225 JC ref no SW5 5-1946
Beige FG 1085 Pig Antique FG3131 SS cars 19-10-1938 JC ref SW14 25-3-1947
Brown Crushed Vaumol VM3170 JC ref SW1 24-5-1946
Brown 3233 JC 6-2-1948
top of card missing VM3233 JC 0/45562 12-1-1948 also notes Austin Vanden plas specials 6-2-1948 note at bottom of card FGPAC is 3280
in a late 30’s SS jaguar colour range brochure I only have photocopy
it lists Pigskin grain tan and directly underneath Brown
So I will still go with the colour pigskin is a mistake by Jaguar at the time same as there light blue grey stuff up and that it is only a grain effect not actual pigskin.
terry
Terry, not sure why you conclude ‘a mistake by Jaguar’, just because you don’t understand the 1950s factory situation………
If my factory Leather Sample books, titled JAGUAR CARS LIMITED COVENTRY, and dated “ISSUED MARCH, 1950” is not proof to you of the leathers actually used in a 1950 XK120 then seems nothing will satisfy you.
Ander Clausager in his book XK120 IN DETAIL, based on his authorised, and total access to the factory records, fully details ALL the leather colours as were actually used on all models XK120 June 1949 to August 1954, noting ELEVEN standard colours/combinations, 65 cars with ‘Special Trim’ and 12 cars either ‘Non Trimmed or Not Known’.
TAN was provided as a single colour on some 883 cars July 1951 to August 1954, but also as a ‘Duo’ BISCUIT AND TAN for 518 cars from Dec 1949 to July 1954, thus is properly included within my March 1950 factory sample book (and my Feb 1956, and Feb 1957 books given TAN was still used in XK140/150). Clearly TAN was a popular and long lived colour, and I note the TAN sample in all three booklets 1950, 1956 and 1957, as well as a large piece I saved out of a Dec 1951 Mark VII I parted out, all match in both grain texture, as well as the colour shade, albeit die-lot colour matches are not as exact as paint colours.
PIGSKIN however was not offered by itself as a single colour, but only as a ‘Duo’ BISCUIT and PIGSKIN, and then for only 39 cars from Nov 1949 to June 1950, thus properly included within my March 1950 factory sample book (but not included of course in the revised and up-to-date 1956 and 1957 booklets).
Clearly PIGSKIN-GRAIN (as it is called in the sample book) cannot have been all that popular, or maybe there were other problems, and thus very short lived - but given only 39 cars so fitted, may well explain why you have yet to actually see the top-surface colour, or indeed have a piece in hand so you can examine closely, and I suspect the March 1950 sample booklet may well be the only issue booklet to include, given its only its 8 month usage period.
Now one other thing you will not be aware of is that all six of the Cow Hide colour samples in my March 1950 Leather Sample booklet measure as being .054" (+/- .002) thick, and these are 'as-new/ unused/ uncompressed/ unworn 3" x 2-1/4" leather pieces. The sole PIGSKIN-GRAIN sample is .036" thick, so only 2/3rd the thickness of the cow-hide leather. The underside of the Pigskin sample is also visually different to the cowhide samples. I have already posted a close-up photo of the top-surface that shows the very distinctive pig-hair follicle holes, grouped into threes, and in a totally random pattern. I also suggested you Google Pigskin leather to gain a better understanding of these described characteristics.
The actual colour of the leather is of course whatever Jaguar wanted/chose from the colours on offer - and again as before whatever name used, is just a NAME. But see below, at last a photo of the TAN colour sample on the left (out of my 1956 booklet), with the PIGSKIN-GRAIN on the right (out of my 1950 booklet)
AS you can see the two colours are totally different, the Pigskin to my eyes is both lighter, and more ‘orange’ in colour, and not dissimilar to my eyes with the later LIGHT TAN colour as used in XK150.
But your attempted points:-
And by the way, who is to say and has proof that this Pigskin-Grain leather was indeed supplied to Jaguar by Connolly? Maybe Jaguar had another supplier? Certainly these 1950, 1956 and 1957 Leather Sample booklets are fairly simplistic with only JAGUAR CARS LIMITED identification and a colour NAME and index number, so may well have been made/assembled by Jaguar themselves in their trim shop using left over leather pieces. From 1958 on, the JAGUAR Leather Sample books are clearly labelled as being CONNOLLY produced, and indeed as you are aware now also provides Connolly’s internal leather quality and colour shade coding. I am not saying Connolly definitely did not supply the PIGSKIN-GRAIN, but suggest it as a possible explanation for your claims of finding no reference at Connolly’s - so maybe worth searching for 1950 UK suppliers of pigskin leather.
At this stage, I for one, have no doubts at all that my 1950 Leather Sample booklet, does indeed include item No.2 made out of genuine pigskin leather, and being dyed in a light orange/tan colour, and that this indeed is almost assuredly the same colour/pigskin leather as Anders Clausager identifies as being fitted to some 39 XK120s in Nov 1949 to June 1950 as a ‘duo’ BISCUIT and PIGSKIN combination, with the darker colour (the Pigskin) being on the plain outside panels of the squab and the cushion.
Allan Crouch’s book reports there were 1152 Mark IVs (10%) and 988 Mark Vs (9.5%) in standard colors with pigskin upholstery, most of them black, and five in special order colors with pigskin. Pigskin shows up in the '36-'40 records, about 5-10% of the cars, and mostly with black.
But of course Rob,
But the thread was to do with XK120, but maybe your point is that it was once fashionable, but not for a modern (in 1950) sports car.
Yes, just adding corroborative information; it seems to have gone out of fashion, only used in combination with biscuit in OTS and not being found at all in FHC and DHC. I don’t have any records for Mark VII to indicate when it was discontinued.
roger great photo thanks for posting
Tan left of photo as per your 1950 book is TAN no doubt and it is the exact same colour as the original Tan trim in my XK150. this is Connolly FGPAC leather
The sample on the RIGHT is the pigskin grain Connolly leather colour to be determined.
I will continue to note Pigskin is not a Connolly colour but just a grain effect and it will not be the skin off a PIG! so we need to find out what colour Connolly called this.
terry
No Terry, I still maintain ‘the penny hasn’t dropped’ for you yet.
In my photo its the sample on the RIGHT that is the ‘Pigskin Grain’, but I accept you saying ‘left’ is a simple typo.
But as far as Jaguar was concerned PIGSKIN is indeed the NAME of the colour they were offering as clearly evident by Anders Clausager’s analysis of the build records clearly identifying some 39 XK120s were indeed supplied with BISCUIT & PIGSKIN ‘duo’ interior trim colour, which as you know applies not just to the seats, but also applies to all the interior colours including the leather, the Rexine and the carpets. My 1950 Leather sample booklet list the available standard range of seven colours, including colour No.2 being PIGSKIN.
Of the 65 XK120s with ‘Special’ trim colour, Clausager also identifies that six only of these were supplied with single colour PIGSKIN - 660040, 660041, 660123, 670029, 670415, 672333, with the last a surprisingly late June 1952 car, so presumably especially procured by Jaguar.
The added notation Pigskin Grain probably separates the Pigskin colour as being supplied in pig leather as something different to the normally used cow leather, with its distinctively different texture and characteristics including being 2/3rds thickness and with the triple hair follicle holes.
As Rob pointed out, this Pigskin colour choice was also offered in Mark IV and Mark V, (and also pre-war SS-Jaguar) as well, but unlikely Mark VII given Clausager says discontinued for XK120s in June 1950, but although presumably the same Pigskin Grain colour and pig-leather as my March 1950 Sample book I have no hard proof to that effect. The 1937 SS-Jaguar ‘Range of Colour Schemes and Upholstery’ folder shows and uses the name ‘Pigskin Grain Tan’, whereas the 1938-9 folder now uses just the name ‘Pigskin Grain’ .
But back to XK120s Clausager clearly identifies only 39 XK120s with standard ‘duo’ Biscuit&Pigskin, and all OTS, mostly aluminium bodied, of course given June 1950 finish date( 15-RHD and 24 LHD) (plus the six special order single colour cars) which can be of course tracked down to Chassis Numbers, indeed a quick scan of my data quickly identifies most if not (yet) all 39, plus the six. Who knows how many of these 45 cars survive with their original ‘Pigskin’ coloured pig-leather, with a few known to have survived with new/restored interiors………
See below photos of 670132 - one of the 24 LHD ‘duo’ Biscuit&Pigskin XK120s, but restored, so no way of telling what pig or cow leather, and how good a colour match, has been used.
One of the single colour ‘Special Order’ cars is featured in Philip Porters book on JWK651 (660040).
And as before - there is no proof that I have seen - that says this PIGSKIN colour as named by Jaguar, in pig-leather was even supplied to Jaguar by Connolly - its easy to jump to that conclusion without proof, so maybe that explains why you cannot find this colour mentioned in the Connolly records you have found/seen
How many cars shipped to India? You would think cowhide would be more problematic in what one would assume would be quite a large commonwealth market?
yes roger I should have typed RIGHT
I am not disagreeing that jaguar called a brown Connolly cow hide with a pigskin bristle pattern embossed into it a colour called “pigskin” but pigskin it aint. What we need to do is get an original sample of jaguars colour called pigskjin and then match it to what the correct Connolly Colour is.
terry
Why not take a couple of fibers from the back of the sample and send it to one of the multitude of DNA testing labs? That would definitively identify the species of origin.
A DNA test would ruin the debate.
I was hoping to stop it short of a duel with flintlock pistols…
