Hi Gents,
I have just finished reading 118 threads on timing chain cover
seals and sump seals.
I certainly know a lot about replacing the timing chain covers
including the aforementioned seals as a unit, but not the question
I have.
Is is possible to replace the timing cover rope seal without
removing the timing cover and front damper or does it have to be
pressured into the slot and crank by the cover?
No such thing as removing the sump and then pushing the old top
rope out and then sliding or pulling the new one in? No easy way
out?
Someone suggested they had done this before and it would be a good
future topic, but it never materialized!
Thanks,
Bob Stoll
XK-120 OTS
(early)–
Flywheel
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In reply to a message from Flywheel sent Thu 25 Aug 2011:
Bob
The only way I can think of is to drop the sump, loosen all
the main bearing caps, and relieve the pressure on the rope
seal. Fish out the old one and slide the new one in. The
crank won’t drop down much, because the front is held up by
the timing chain, and the rear by the pilot shaft of the
transmission. You may be able to get the old one out, but
there’s no way you’ll get a new one in without having some
clearance between the crank and the timing cover.
Joel–
ex jag, '66 E-type S1 4.2, '56 XK140dhc, '97 XJ-6
Denison, TX, United States
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In reply to a message from ex jag sent Thu 25 Aug 2011:
Thanks Joel,
I was hoping against hope. ‘‘Say it isn’t so’’ but you have an
alternative I hadn’t thought of. I am doing a maintenance run
around the car rather than a rebuild, so perhaps just the lower
rope for now. The car has been idle for quite some time and the
seal was not leaking badly. I will just do the sump seal for now
and keep fresh cardboard in the boot for finicky folks with nice
driveways.
The radiator, fan, water pump all in good stead so will wait and do
it the right way next oil change or --?— whichever comes first.
Thanks for the reply, I can now move on. Two steps forward, one
step back.
In reply to a message from Flywheel sent Thu 25 Aug 2011:
Bob,
In my opinion, there’s no easy way to replace the top half of the
rope seal that is imbedded in the timing cover. The timing cover
has to come off first, but before that, you will need to remove the
sump, harmonic balancer, and water pump. It is then possible to
remove the timing cover if you can first back-out the two studs
that are screwed into the top of the timing cover and the two studs
the are screwed into the bottom of the cylinder head. If any of
those four studs cannot be backed-out, then you will need to remove
the cylinder head before the timing cover can be removed.
The rope seal fits very tightly inside the timing cover and against
the crankshaft. When the new rope seal is installed in the timing
cover, you will find it difficult to snap the timing cover back
into place because of the pressure of the rope seal against the
crankshaft.
While you’re at it, consider sending the water pump off to be
rebuilt if it has been awhile. Good luck!
Mike Balch–
The original message included these comments:
Is is possible to replace the timing cover rope seal without
removing the timing cover and front damper or does it have to be
pressured into the slot and crank by the cover?
No such thing as removing the sump and then pushing the old top
rope out and then sliding or pulling the new one in? No easy way
out?
I bought this back in the late 50s or early 60s for doing the rear seal on
my XK-150 with the crankshaft in place. It may not be available anymore.
K-D 2033 INSTALLER and REMOVER for Rear Main Bearing Seals (Wick or
Neoprene). K-D Tools, Lancaster PA
One part is a simple screw hook for pulling out the old seal. The hook is
your handle. The other part is a light steel cable ending in a chinese
finger trap for pulling the new seal into place.
I remember hammering the excess seal back into the hole.
Gene McGough
XK-150 FHC S834515DN
XJ6C II 1976----- Original Message -----
From: “Flywheel” rpstoll@hughes.net
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 4:00 PM
Thanks Joel,
I was hoping against hope. ‘‘Say it isn’t so’’ but you have an
alternative I hadn’t thought of. I am doing a maintenance run
around the car rather than a rebuild, so perhaps just the lower
rope for now. The car has been idle for quite some time and the
seal was not leaking badly. I will just do the sump seal for now
and keep fresh cardboard in the boot for finicky folks with nice
driveways.
The radiator, fan, water pump all in good stead so will wait and do
it the right way next oil change or --?— whichever comes first.
Thanks for the reply, I can now move on. Two steps forward, one
step back.
In reply to a message from Gene McGough sent Thu 25 Aug 2011:
It does present a conundrum. I was hoping it would be a
simple ‘‘sure you can, no you can’t.’’ I have used the rope method
in the past, but wasn’t sure if it worked with the XK-120. The E-
type was a snap using it for the rear seal. Worked like a charm.
But when faced with ‘‘possibly’’ I think I am just going to chicken
out and ‘‘plan’’ for something catastrophic. The upper seal is now
50+ years old to my knowledge and hopefully will hold out until a
frontal redo.
It was said in a previous post, ‘‘if you fix the sump seal only, you
are 50% there.’’ I am going to give it a whirl as the sump is
already off. I would really love to try the seal pull through, but
my greatest fear would be to pull the old seal out and not be able
to get a new one in. I am shooting for a few more weeks or months
of driving, and that scenario would be capute. Ha! we shall see.
Cheers,
Bob–
Flywheel
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In reply to a message from Flywheel sent Thu 25 Aug 2011:
It is possible to remove the front cover without removing
the head first. I have done it in order to replace the lower
tensioner spring, and my notes on the subject are in the
archives.
My new rope seal was rather oversize in cross section and I
had to do a bit of finagling to get it to fit. So I can’t
imagine the puller tool being successful, or if it works the
new seal may not be all that much better than the old one.
You might try removing the damper and C2173 distance piece
on the crank and see if that gives you enough clearance to
get the old rope out and fit the new rope in, then push the
distance piece back in.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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Bill Bassett sells a modern one piece front seal with housing that is very
slick. Installs without modification to pan or timing cover whatsoever.
This seal is only those early rope seal engines-- considerably smaller than
those used in everything else. It will of course require the removal of
the large nut, crank pulley and damper and distance piece. With all of that
gone, it might very well slip in without the need to remove the timing
cover.
I have one of his seals and my 120 engine is sitting in my shop
waiting for me to find the needed time. At this point, all I have in my engine
is crank and bearings. This weekend I will try to slip in the seal WITH the
timing cover in place (temporarily- for this experiment). Of course, I
have the major advantage of all the parts removed, engine out of car, engine
sitting upside down, and everything nice and clean. I will report my
results on these pages.
Perhaps, though, the answer is already known- Is it possible to
insert a new front seal into a 140, 150,
E or sedan engine without removing the timing cover? If it is, then it
should be possible to do it with an early 120/MK7 using one of the seals that
Bill sells.
Regards, Bob McAnelly
Ahhh…Gene, you don’t have a rear seal, you & I have a top & bottom
scroll cover, no seal.
Regards, Otto M.
In a message dated 8/25/2011 06:51 Eastern Daylight Time, genemc@cavemen.net writes:
I bought this back in the late 50s or early 60s for doing the rear seal on
my XK-150 with the crankshaft in place. It may not be available anymore.
In reply to a message from Flywheel sent Thu 25 Aug 2011:
Hi Bob:
I have been reading the thread regarding the front rope seal
with interest as I faced the same problem back in 2008. I
had installed my rebuilt engine a couple of years before and
while everything else was fine it was throwing oil out of
the front seal area, not excessively, but enough to warrant
attention. I ended up chatting to Terry Larsen about the
problem and he gave me a tip which I followed.
Unfortunately, I was not aware of the modern replacement
front seal when my engine was out and in the shop. Also,
while I was aware of the ‘Chinese finger device’ for pulling
a new seal through the front cover the consensus was that
short of pulling the head (not something I wanted to do) it
was unlikely this method would be successful. Given this I
opted to just replace the lower part of the seal, the
section in the sump. Terry’s tip was to use two of the
later, (1962 on), narrower rear seals placed side by side.
The later rear seal (C19654 was the XK’s Unlimited number)
has a piece of wire embedded in the core, thus presumably
holds it’s shape better. Compared to the standard graphite
rope front seal the two rears placed in tandem are about the
same width.
I fitted them and I must say that I have virtually
eliminated oil leakage out of the bottom half. After a 50
mile drive there is a slight sheen of oil sweat on the front
of the sump. It occurred to me in retrospect that if I had
put a thin bead of silicone in the groove on the sump prior
to fitting the seals I might possibly not even have the oil
sheen. As Terry pointed out, and as has been mentioned
already, you will solve 50% of the problem anyway. The
engine still throws a bit out the top half, providing a rust
proofing sheen on the frame and inner fender, but I can
drive my usual 2500 miles per year and do not have to add
any oil. So while it is leaking it isn’t much, and remember
it has been noted that folks have been hospitalized trying
to completely solve oil leaks on Jaguars!
Best regards,
Chris.–
The original message included these comments:
around the car rather than a rebuild, so perhaps just the lower
rope for now. The car has been idle for quite some time and the
seal was not leaking badly. I will just do the sump seal for now
and keep fresh cardboard in the boot for finicky folks with nice
driveways.
I have one of those replacement lip seals from Bill Bassett too. The
front seal on my DHC leaks and I will replace it next year when I have some
valve work done on the head. I agree with the other listers that this cannot
be replaced without removing the timing chain cover. The OD of the seal is
aluminum alloy and is machined to match exactly the contours of the
original seal seat. Bill instructed me to use a sealer when putting the seal in
around the OD where it sits in the grooves.
Some people have retrofitted their XK120s with the standard Jaguar lip
seal used in XK140 onwards by machining the sump and timing chain cover to
accept the new seal. This is a good alternative too.