[xk] Red Nuts, Purple Bolts

Is it time for another controversy?

We’ve talked about red bolts. Now how about red nuts?

I took apart my front suspension on my Mark V saloon this past week. This is
mostly identical with XK120 suspension, so I thought this group would be
interested. The lower wishbones and torsion bars had never been off before.

I found plenty of red bolts, and some red nuts, and even some purple bolts.
Its a very thin coating, more like a thinned out wash than anything really
protective, and it is down in the roots of the threads. Here are some
pictures.

http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1215961521

All the threads are ANF, and the bolt heads all took an SAE wrench, but a
surprising number of the corresponding nuts took a BSF wrench.

So the question is, should I restore all these nuts and bolts with red
paint? Do the concours judges deduct for non-original color on the nuts and
bolt heads?

Rob Reilly - XK120FHC, Mark V saloon

1 Like

Rob,

Red nuts might be a sign that your shorts are a bit too tight

Regards,

Rick
Way too much time on my hands, it is afterall 2AM here!____________________________________________________________
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In a message dated 7/14/2008 2:13:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
holland-rick@juno.com writes:
Rob,

Red nuts might be a sign that your shorts are a bit too tight

Regards,

Rick
Way too much time on my hands, it is afterall 2AM here!

You’re right again Rick, you’re getting good at this!!

Regards, Otto M.

**************Get the scoop on last night’s hottest shows and the live music
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In reply to a message from R_and_J_Reilly sent Mon 14 Jul 2008:

I think that at the factory, a 'red lead’coating was applied to the
threads as an anti sieze. My car [ Mk VII] had it on almost every
thread .

Although normally on and meant for the threads, 21st Century
concours weren’t uppermost on the factory workers’ minds at the
time, and it looks likes your got a fairly liberal coating.

Bonus points for authenticity and patina.–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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1 Like

In reply to a message from R_and_J_Reilly sent Mon 14 Jul 2008:

Rob,
In JCNA concours, only the engine, exterior - paint, chrome,
wheel and tires for example, interior and some operational
items (e.g. lights) are judged for authenticity,
condition,cleanliness etc… The suspension is not judged
even if it is visible. So that also excludes the underside
of the vehicle - I think there is some judging rule that
prohibits unseemly displays of prostration by the judges.

So you don’t have to preserve them from a cncours judging
perspective but given their condition it would be a shame
not to.

Regards

Keith–
The original message included these comments:

paint? Do the concours judges deduct for non-original color on the nuts and
bolt heads?


Keith Bertenshaw
Rockaway, NJ, United States
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In reply to a message from R_and_J_Reilly sent Mon 14 Jul 2008:

Rob,
My 140 had something reddish on some of the front suspension
bolts, but they are painted over black now, and I seem to
have lost the pictures I took and now forget which bolts
they were.

Last year I finally got around to degreasing the torsion
bars and their adjustment mechanisms, which had been covered
with accumulated grease dirt and oil for a long time. I
found some patches of reddish paint (similar to the glyptol
type red on the rear end) remaining on the torsion bar
reaction arms (the C.3462 levers for adjustment of tension
on torsion bar). Otherwise no other type of paint can be
seen on the levers, just bare metal, slightly rusted in a
few places. Maybe these levers are made of cast iron, and
were painted red like the rear end housings?

Anyone else notice red on the torsion bar levers? I had
better go and take pictures of the levers now.–
Gary Grant S818919DN
Ottawa, Canada
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Gary G;
My 120 DHC’s “Lever, Adjusting, Torsion Bar” (P/N C.3262 & C.3261) are
both black (originally), but the “Bolt, Locating Adjusting Levers on Rear of
Torsion Bars” (P/N NB.137/19D-- is an AUTO-R) and "Bolt, clamping Adjusting
Lever to Re-Action Bracket (NB.131/13D-- is a BEES 45R55) are the “powdered
red” like those in Rob R’s pics. The Washer (BD.541/1) and Nut (NN.137/L)
for the Locating Bolt and the Nut (not shown) and Washer (C.726) appear to
have been Black Oxide as I can find no traces of any red
I should note that the “red” of these nuts and bolts is no where near the
shade of Glyptal, which I see as a “reddish-brown”… But I will agree the
colour of the nuts and bolts is very close, if not exactly the same shade as
the “Red-Orange” of the Differentials in some XK’s (that ought to satisfy
the “It’s Black!” crowd).
Point being, we are now finding at least one inconsistancy in the
parts/fasteners that were this “red” colour on some XK’s… Might it be a
120 vs. 140 issue?? A “supplier/vendor” issue? No answers, just more
questions… Doncha Love It???
Charles #677556.----- Original Message -----
From: “Gary Grant”

My 140 had something reddish on some of the front suspension
bolts, but they are painted over black now, and I seem to
have lost the pictures I took and now forget which bolts
they were.

Last year I finally got around to degreasing the torsion
bars and their adjustment mechanisms, which had been covered
with accumulated grease dirt and oil for a long time. I
found some patches of reddish paint (similar to the glyptol
type red on the rear end) remaining on the torsion bar
reaction arms (the C.3462 levers for adjustment of tension
on torsion bar). Otherwise no other type of paint can be
seen on the levers, just bare metal, slightly rusted in a
few places. Maybe these levers are made of cast iron, and
were painted red like the rear end housings?

Anyone else notice red on the torsion bar levers? I had
better go and take pictures of the levers now.

Gary Grant S818919DN
Ottawa, Canada

Hi all,

I’ve not been active on the list for a few months due to being very busy
setting up my own business. Needless to say, this involves Jaguars, and you
might guess, it is the restoration of carburetters.

So tonight, instead of deleting all of your valuable e-mails, something made
me open one about bolt colours. Surprise, surprise, it was from my old
friend Charles. The content took me back a few years to the differential colour
debate.

I’ll willingly search through my various boxes of old British bolts if it
will help any of you. Just let me know which sizes you require.

If, in return, you would like to order a concours set of XK carbs from me,
that would be much appreciated.

I hope this does not count as blatant advertising!!

Regards,

David Lonsdale
Classic Carburetters
Cirencester, UK
+44 (0) 7786 912011

In reply to a message from BISHOP13 sent Fri 18 Jul 2008:

Hi all
Here are a few pictures looking upwards at the left
adjustment lever. I used a fluorescent light for
illumination, so now the red spots dont seem to show up too
well in the pictures, but they can definitely still be seen.

Yes seems to be sort of a semi gloss type of medium red in
appearance, quite close, if not exactly the same, as the red
on the outside of the rear end housing on this car (although
the red on the rear end was/is mostly covered with black
paint).
The red spots on the levers dont look brownish, although the
glyptol red remaining INside the rear end housing and inside
the engine block does look quite brownish, presumably
stained from years of contact with mostly dirty oil?

I may be imagining it but the shapes of the red spots on the
levers sort of looks like the remains of thick red paint
runs, the rest of any thinner red paint (if it is paint)
having disappeared. The now removed thick layer of greasy
dirt having covered and somewhat protected the bare metal
and red spots for a long time. Photos of the thick ancient
grease covering the levers have been inadvertently deleted.

Could be that the levers were simply glyptalled red just
like some other castings seem to have been. Anyone know if
the levers are castings, or maybe forgings? Of course it is
entirely possible that a po slapped some red paint on there
a long time ago for some unknown reason. Anyone else notice
red on the levers?

I wonder what has ever happened to all the original factory
part drawings, specs, supplier specs and contracts, job
instruction sheets, memos etc which could now provide useful
information? Lost when the factory burnt down in 1957 maybe.

http://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/snap_view.php3?id=1216328535--
Gary Grant S818919DN
Ottawa, Canada
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In reply to a message from Gary Grant sent Fri 18 Jul 2008:

Gary,
I am going to hazard an opinion that the levers are forgings. This
would not only be be consistent with the function, but also matches
the appearance of the areas of ground off ‘‘flash’’ that is the
plastic metal that escapes from between the edges of the forging
dies.

Karl–
The original message included these comments:

like some other castings seem to have been. Anyone know if
the levers are castings, or maybe forgings? Of course it is


karl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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Charles,

Look at the “bolts” that secure the inner bumper bow to the chassis.
These are the large bolts that thread into the special chromed “nut
studs” that sandwich the angle washers through the wing holes. I don’t
have a parts list handy,so I apologize for not using proper terminology

These bolts had traces of red not only on the heads, but on the threads
too. To me, its a very dull brick shade of red. I’d describe it as more
of the color of the jack than diff and engine Glyptal

Since these fasteners are somewhat hidden, it doesn’t seem likely the red
was from over spray or seepage…

Various other fasteners had traces of this color but since my car was
red, I never paid much attention to it as being a distinct fastener
coating.

IMHO, purple nuts could be a result of IRS audits.

Regards,

Rick____________________________________________________________
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David L;
So glad to hear from you… seems that most of the “old timers” have
driven off into the sunset…
On the Nuts & Bolts… I don’t believe it’s a case of folks needing
replacements,
although some might, but a case of “identifying” which of the bolts, etc.
were originally “red” (or red-orange) and where they were fitted.
As for the “blatent advertising”, I’m not an Admin, but I don’t see it as
such… I do believe that list members are “allowed to mention” if they
offer a service or have a part for sale ;-}
Hope you join back in on the conversations and sell lots of Concours Carb
Sets!
Charles #677556.

Hi all,

I’ve not been active on the list for a few months due to being very busy
setting up my own business. Needless to say, this involves Jaguars, and
you
might guess, it is the restoration of carburetters.

So tonight, instead of deleting all of your valuable e-mails, something
made
me open one about bolt colours. Surprise, surprise, it was from my old
friend Charles. The content took me back a few years to the differential
colour
debate.

I’ll willingly search through my various boxes of old British bolts if it
will help any of you. Just let me know which sizes you require.

If, in return, you would like to order a concours set of XK carbs from
me,----- Original Message -----
From: DavidNLonsdale@aol.com
that would be much appreciated.

I hope this does not count as blatant advertising!!

Regards,

David Lonsdale
Classic Carburetters
Cirencester, UK
+44 (0) 7786 912011

I don’t think it is anti-seize, since it is spread all the way along some
very long bolts for the rear suspension. This stuff sure looks to me like
paint, but very thinned out like what’s left on a paint brush after you give
it a quick clean in turpentine, or like kids water color paint. Something
that doesn’t build up thick at all anyway.

My current belief, and always being glad to have corroboration or
contradictory evidence, is that it was a marker for ANF threaded fasteners,
so they wouldn’t get mixed up with BSF threaded stuff at the factory.
Remember the Mark V and XK120 were built at a time when British industry was
just starting to change over from BSF to ANF, and Jaguar seems to have done
it gradually according to component groups. The front suspension was all new
design in 1948, and is all ANF threads. So is the XK engine, but the pushrod
engine was still all BSF threads. I found red bolts holding the oil pan
baffles of my XK120 engine. I have not found one single red fastener on my
Mark V pushrod engine, which is all BSF, but I’m finding red on all the
front suspension, all the brake backing plates, the rear shocks, and the
front end of the leaf springs, i.e. anything that was a new design for 1948
and not a carry-over from the Mark IV.

The exception would be components bought in whole from an outsider like
carbs and gearboxes, still all BSF and no red bolts.

I suspect the BEES and AUTO bolt makers dunked their ANF products in a
thinned out solution of 1 part red paint and 9 parts turpentine before
sending the order to Jaguar, possibly at Jaguar’s request.

This would hold true for Mark VII as well, as Ed says about his, since it
was nearly all ANF threads like XK120. I suspect that after the BSF stuff
was mostly cleared out of the factory, say by the mid 50s, that the need for
red on the ANF stuff would be mitigated. We hear of fewer red bolts on XK140
and 150s.

The torsion bar reaction arms look to me like forgings, not sand castings,
and I did not see any red on them, nor in fact any paint at all, but the
clamping bolts for them were red. The arms would not be Glyptal, since there
are no ball bearings and oil involved here. You remember that Glyptal was
only important on the INSIDE of the differential.

Charles, you might want to organize your bolts and nuts according to
diameter, length and thread pitch, and then go through the fasteners list in
the back of the parts catalogue and see if you can identify part numbers for
some of them. Anything with an unusual feature like a castle nut or a bolt
with a hole in it for a cotter pin will be a C part number, so set them
aside for later. For example 4 of the 8 bolts holding the lower wishbone
shaft to the chassis are special shoulder bolts, and the other 4 are
ordinary fully threaded bolts (all 8 are red) and the nuts for them are a
special self locking nut. I’ve been pretty careful about keeping mine
separated and identified, so I can probably help you out there on specific
bolts.

Rob Reilly - 679187

About time we got into some serious stuff.

What is the collective “expert” opinion about “self-locking-nuts” as used on
XKs?

I have identified three distinct design/types and have an opinion about
chronological sequence of use, but like to hear other opinions.

I note the commercial suppliers like to now supply slotted-nuts for
split-pin use in most applications, but some were originally a self-locking
nut - eg Tie-Rod end bolts were secured by self-licking nuts - NOT
slotted-nuts with split pin.

Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
R_and_J_Reilly
Sent: Friday, 18 July 2008 10:30 PM
To: XK mailing list
Subject: Re: [xk] Red Nuts, Purple Bolts

I don’t think it is anti-seize, since it is spread all the way along some
very long bolts for the rear suspension. This stuff sure looks to me like
paint, but very thinned out like what’s left on a paint brush after you give

it a quick clean in turpentine, or like kids water color paint. Something
that doesn’t build up thick at all anyway.

My current belief, and always being glad to have corroboration or
contradictory evidence, is that it was a marker for ANF threaded fasteners,
so they wouldn’t get mixed up with BSF threaded stuff at the factory.
Remember the Mark V and XK120 were built at a time when British industry was

just starting to change over from BSF to ANF, and Jaguar seems to have done
it gradually according to component groups. The front suspension was all new

design in 1948, and is all ANF threads. So is the XK engine, but the pushrod

engine was still all BSF threads. I found red bolts holding the oil pan
baffles of my XK120 engine. I have not found one single red fastener on my
Mark V pushrod engine, which is all BSF, but I’m finding red on all the
front suspension, all the brake backing plates, the rear shocks, and the
front end of the leaf springs, i.e. anything that was a new design for 1948
and not a carry-over from the Mark IV.

The exception would be components bought in whole from an outsider like
carbs and gearboxes, still all BSF and no red bolts.

I suspect the BEES and AUTO bolt makers dunked their ANF products in a
thinned out solution of 1 part red paint and 9 parts turpentine before
sending the order to Jaguar, possibly at Jaguar’s request.

This would hold true for Mark VII as well, as Ed says about his, since it
was nearly all ANF threads like XK120. I suspect that after the BSF stuff
was mostly cleared out of the factory, say by the mid 50s, that the need for

red on the ANF stuff would be mitigated. We hear of fewer red bolts on XK140

and 150s.

The torsion bar reaction arms look to me like forgings, not sand castings,
and I did not see any red on them, nor in fact any paint at all, but the
clamping bolts for them were red. The arms would not be Glyptal, since there

are no ball bearings and oil involved here. You remember that Glyptal was
only important on the INSIDE of the differential.

Charles, you might want to organize your bolts and nuts according to
diameter, length and thread pitch, and then go through the fasteners list in

the back of the parts catalogue and see if you can identify part numbers for

some of them. Anything with an unusual feature like a castle nut or a bolt
with a hole in it for a cotter pin will be a C part number, so set them
aside for later. For example 4 of the 8 bolts holding the lower wishbone
shaft to the chassis are special shoulder bolts, and the other 4 are
ordinary fully threaded bolts (all 8 are red) and the nuts for them are a
special self locking nut. I’ve been pretty careful about keeping mine
separated and identified, so I can probably help you out there on specific
bolts.

Rob Reilly - 679187

Roger;
Looking thru my “Photocopy Book” (Yes, I photocopied a lot of the nuts,
bolts and small parts), I can identify two types of lock nuts used on my
120 DHC… the “Nylock” type and a “crimped end” type… The latter looks
like a portion of the end of the nut, from the threads out, was machined to
“half” it’s thickness, then “knife cut” at the corners of the “flats” then
bent over to bind? the end of the bolt.
The “Crimped End” nuts are P/N C.8150/7 and are shown with the bolts
(NB.137/10D, NB.137/12D, NB.137/16D & C.3653) that secure the upper and
lower wishbone shafts to the Chassis. Also found four used on the rear
“Spring Bar to Chassis Center Bolt” (no part number or size)… If I recall
correctly, this “spring bar” is the “J” style located at the sides, inside
of the boot.
Four “Nylocks” are on the same photocopy page as the BSF 3/8"x20tpi Body
to Chassis Mounting Bolts. No part number, tho.
A “New Parts” page shows four new 3/8"x24tpi UNF Nylock type lock nuts
with no other info except “New Parts” and another “New Parts” page shows six
new “3/8” BSF Nylock Lock Nuts"… no other info.
I’d prefer using castlated nuts and split pins to lock nuts… the former
being more “mentality secure” than the latter…
Charles #677556.

About time we got into some serious stuff.

What is the collective “expert” opinion about “self-locking-nuts” as used
on
XKs?

I have identified three distinct design/types and have an opinion about
chronological sequence of use, but like to hear other opinions.

I note the commercial suppliers like to now supply slotted-nuts for
split-pin use in most applications, but some were originally a
self-locking----- Original Message -----
From: “Roger Payne”
nut - eg Tie-Rod end bolts were secured by self-licking nuts - NOT
slotted-nuts with split pin.

Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.

In reply to a message from R_and_J_Reilly sent Fri 18 Jul 2008:

I don’t have a particularly strong opinion on this, but in the
factory the engines [ and gearboxes ] would have been assembled at
a different position to the chassis.

And I would think the pushrod engines separately from the twin cam
engines.

In either case an engine has a number of different bolts / set
screws/ studs/ nuts and different tensile strengths all of which
must go in the correct place. Even within a thread type.

And working myself with both, I find that they are fairly easy to
identify the thread type.
I doubt that there just a mixture of assorted nuts and bolts.

I would imagine that for efficiency, and WL was big on this, that
the fasteners would have been available separated by type , length
and even the ratio of the proportion of sizes needed for each unit.

It would need more than just paint on some to identify them.

There were always a mixture of thread types even on the earlier
cars. BSF, BA , AF , Whitworth and BSPF.

I would guess that the antilock may have been used later when
possibly rationing became less intense and more care was being
taken as waiting lists shortened and disappeared.–
The original message included these comments:

My current belief, and always being glad to have corroboration or
contradictory evidence, is that it was a marker for ANF threaded fasteners,
so they wouldn’t get mixed up with BSF threaded stuff at the factory.
Remember the Mark V and XK120 were built at a time when British industry was
just starting to change over from BSF to ANF, and Jaguar seems to have done
it gradually according to component groups. The front suspension was all new
design in 1948, and is all ANF threads. So is the XK engine, but the pushrod
engine was still all BSF threads. I found red bolts holding the oil pan
baffles of my XK120 engine. I have not found one single red fastener on my
Mark V pushrod engine, which is all BSF, but I’m finding red on all the
front suspension, all the brake backing plates, the rear shocks, and the


Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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Rob R;
Just now getting back to this part of your post…
I did manage to keep the “little piles” of nuts an bolts together when I
packed everything up back in '84 or '85, I just didn’t mark the little brown
paper bags as to what that handful of fasteners went to… I’ve since been
“trying” to match-up listings in the Parts Catalog to what each bag holds…
Not an easy task as, it appears, Jaguar might have used ten bolts of a
certain dia & length on an OTS, but on my DHC there were four of one length
and six of another length, and/or discrepancies to that effect…
I’ve identified (with a 90% confidence level) “most” of the nuts and
bolts… this is still a “Work-In-Progress” (as is everything on my DHC!!)
I do appreciate the info that slotted nuts, bolts with split pin holes,
etc. are “C” part numbers. I knew that about the Front Suspension Shoulderd
Bolts, as an example, but not about the slotted nuts or bolts with split pin
or safety wire holes…
Also, have you (or can you) put together a “list” of the items that have
the red bolts, etc.? Or is it, carte blanch, all ANF Fasteners??
Charles #677556.

Charles, you might want to organize your bolts and nuts according to
diameter, length and thread pitch, and then go through the fasteners list
in
the back of the parts catalogue and see if you can identify part numbers
for----- Original Message -----
From: " R_and_J_Reilly"
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 7:30 AM
some of them. Anything with an unusual feature like a castle nut or a bolt
with a hole in it for a cotter pin will be a C part number, so set them
aside for later. For example 4 of the 8 bolts holding the lower wishbone
shaft to the chassis are special shoulder bolts, and the other 4 are
ordinary fully threaded bolts (all 8 are red) and the nuts for them are a
special self locking nut. I’ve been pretty careful about keeping mine
separated and identified, so I can probably help you out there on specific
bolts.

Rob Reilly - 679187

Charles,
Yeah, it seems to be pretty much carte blanche on chassis fasteners, other
than the rear shock links.
I started to do a list of bolts with sizes and part numbers, but it may take
me a few days.
Here is a quick list of fasteners on which I have found red.
lower wishbone shaft mounting bolts (shoulder and regular)
lower wishbone shaft big slotted nuts
upper wishbone shaft medium and short mounting bolts
torsion bar front flange muff both bolt sizes
torsion bar rear reaction lever clamping and spline piercing bolts
rear shock mounting bolts
rear leaf spring front shackle pin bolts
front and rear rubber rebound buffer mounting bolts
anti-roll bar bushing mounting bolts
ant-roll bar end bracket mounting bolts
upper ball joint bolts
front brake backing plate bolts

front shock lower end and wishbone special pin bolts (found red only on the
threads here)
upper wishbone shaft long mounting bolts (purple)

I haven’t started on the rear axle yet, maybe today if it doesn’t rain.
Rob Reilly - 679187

Also, have you (or can you) put together a “list” of the items that have
the red bolts, etc.? Or is it, carte blanch, all ANF Fasteners??
Charles #677556.

Good Morning Gentleman

Recently I cleaned the area around the torsion bars and levers of our 1950 XK120 and removed a thick many decades old layer of underbody coating.
As you can see the lever itself (both of them) seams to be painted red in his earlier days. Came they out of the factory this way or was it a later modification?

Thanks a lot for your thoughs :+1:

Best Regards
Lukas

Hi Lucas,

I have no definative answer, but just advice for observing details, please remember that many parts had some sort of pre-paint or assembly preparation.

”Red oxide” was one of the oldest rust prevention methods for steel parts.

Usually all general chassis, trunk, powertrain, suspension etc components were painted a semi gloss black at the factory.

But some components, especially the later IRS Salisbury differential, were painted with Glyptal, which resulted in lots of people believing that the diff was painted red at the factory.

Some folks still refuse to believe that they all were painted black on top of the red Glyptal.

Sometimes the paint was so poorly applied (by a young apprentice?) that it did not even cover the whole surface, especially in more difficult to get places, like I could see on my 1975 XJ6C diff that had never been touched after it left the factory. Same thing with the E-types I’ve had.

So it’s very likely those suspension parts received a dip in some lead based paint ir similar to avoid rusting before they were assembled and / or painted black at the factory.

High res B&W photos do exist from the assembly line at the Foleshill plant, Holbrook Ln. Coventry.

Cheers!

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