[xk] XK120 C Type head

XK
1

An old message I have in my files. Regards, John Elmgreen

John, I have had an interesting communication with another lister,
offline. He has a 120 very close to mine with a confirmed C head. He
said: “To VERIFY what Head was on my engine, I had to go by the CASTING no.
which is on the bottom of the head between the exhaust manifolds. the early
120 big valve heads without a ‘C’ on top had ‘7707’ cast on it. The number
STAMPED between the cams is your engine number and if your head is correct,
that will match the number STAMPED on your block above your oil filter.And
of coarse, these numbers will match your commission plate. If your head is
actually a 140 era head, which should have the “C” badging, the casting
number will be 7707/01 on the bottom. The Stamped cam numbers, which are
Very hard to find are the same. You will know for sure if you have that
casting number.” I checked the number to which he referred, and on my head
it is:
“C 7707” I am not sure where he came up with the 7707 casting number
information, but it certainly checked out on my head. Thought you might be
interested. Tom Carson Juneau, Alaska S 674946

2

In reply to a message from John Elmgreen sent Wed 16 Mar 2005:

Urs has a picture of this casting number in his Volume I.

Karl–
The original message included these comments:

‘‘C 7707’’ I am not sure where he came up with the 7707 casting number

–
karl
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3

This is a subject that has come up from time to time on the list.
I would like to know of there is anyone on the list - or indeed elsewhere! -
who has an original XK120 C Type head?

  • I do not mean Special Equipment heads. They are not C Type heads. Many
    people think they are.
  • Nor do I mean the (later) C Type heads that were fitted to XK140s.
    I mean the early C Type heads that were available as announced in Service
    Bulletin 95A, April 1953, said to be available on “an outright sale basis
    only” for the XK120.
    The casting number will be 7707 (as for the 140s).

Kind regards,
John Elmgreen
Jaguar XK Motoring Historian

4

In reply to a message from John Elmgreen sent Sun 14 Aug 2016:

Hi John…would such a performance head…the one you mention as
in the TSB as a Jaguar factory performance head available
during the late XK120 mfg…then have no engine number on the
inner front flat…as it would not have been '‘attached’ to a
car?
Would this type not have had the letter C in the valley…but
would have the 7707?
Nicxk–
Nick53XK120S
Spokane WA, United States
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5

In reply to a message from Nick53XK120S sent Sun 14 Aug 2016:

I was told about 35 years ago by a person in SCal who sold
lots of used special equipment parts and seemed to know
XK120s pretty well that he had personally seen a C Type
head received in the boot of a new late xk120 for
installation by the dealer before delivery as new. He did
not specify whether this head was stamped with the proper
engine number or not.

I have often wondered whether it was likely or not pre-
stamped.

He also claimed that a particular Jaguar dealer actually
had made up locally a brass plaque that the dealer
attached to the firewall of new cars to document the
fitting of a true C-Type head.

I pass this along as unproven second -hand information

I did buy from him a genuine auxiliary fuel tank and a set
of original bucket seats, and perhaps some other stuff as
well. I say that only to show that he had some knowledge
of, and interest in special equipment.

Karl–
The original message included these comments:

during the late XK120 mfg…then have no engine number on the
inner front flat…as it would not have been '‘attached’ to a
car?

–
karl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

6

Karl,

That’s the problem 60 years later, locating hard proof to support the period
THEORY, as its impossible to DISPROOVE something.

After years of effort from three continents, I have pretty well concluded
that the ‘infamous’ SERVICE BULLETIN No.95 is a ‘red herring’
Whether floated by Jaguar for ‘homologation’ reasons for their factory
in-house and works supported private teams, I really do not believe any
XK120 owners outside factory prepared cars, or maybe one or two of the UK
based factory supported teams (like Ecurie Ecosse) ever received all or
parts of this SB.95 kit. Clearly however owners of C-types, may well have
sought/sourced spare heads (as a priority supply from Jaguar), and who is to
say such heads or ex-C-type heads didn’t end up being fitted to USA racing
XK120s. Be worth tracking down the top USA racing XK120 teams/cars from
1952 to 1954 period (if they survive in their 1954 status).

But I am equally conclusive that no XK120 EVER left the factory originally
equipped with a C-type head and/or H8 carburetters.

I have ONE only claim that I have been unable to verify one way or the other
remaining, which has some probability of possibly being true, and that is of
a USA Customer for a 1954 XK120 FHC demanding/insisting his new XK120 FHC
order to include C-type head and H8 carburetters, that on being told not
possible by Dealer, then direct to JCars USA, ended up approaching Jaguar UK
direct and insisted, and some nine months later, received his new 1954 XK120
FHC so fitted, one would presume off-line, by the factory experimental
department.

It’s a good story and rings as a true possibility, but if so, does tell you
that short of similar effort, there would not have been a second XK120 so
factory-new delivered.

More probably, as you recall - parts supplied in the boot for the dealer to
fit, but in such a case, that’s still not factory original, as who is to say
what a local dealer may or may not have done, indeed fitting a brass-plaque
to the firewall amongst other local USA mods. Maybe your story relates to
my remaining claim?

So best I can tell is during the 1952 to 1954 period Jaguar evolved their
standard A-type head by machining variations and a couple casting variations
into first the head fitted onto production C-types, thus getting the name of
C-type head, and thus SB.95 for homologation purposes for the odd factory
supported XK120/Mark VII.
But clearly for production purposes Jaguar did tool-up to make C-type heads
that were offered as part of the XK140MC options kit, invariably with normal
H6 carburetters and manifold and distributor.
The first of these ‘production’ C-type heads did not have the raised-cast
‘C’ on the spark plug valley, that being added in early 1955 (I have rough
demarcation point).

The XK120M (USA terminology), or factory terminology XK120 SE (Special
Equipment) did not have a C-type head, but indeed the same normal XK120
A-type head, but with high-lift cams and valves fitted to provide the 20 bhp
power increase claimed. With their Engine numbers stamped -8S, many people
confuse this with XK140s where -8S indicates a C-type head being fitted.

But there are several physical indicators on both A-type and C-type heads,
and indeed the experimental/evolving 1952 to 1954 development heads that any
claims of having an original C-type head fitted is very easily proved, or in
the case of XK120s easily disproved.

And same thing applies to associated Inlet Manifolds and H8 carburetters.

AS above, easy to PROOVE something, but unfortunately impossible to
DISPROOVE something, especially 60 years later, but at this stage I am 100%
happy with my conclusions, but still quite happy to be PROVEN wrong.

Roger Payne
XK140MC OTS; 4.2E OTS; DaimlerSV8
Canberra, Australia

.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
karl
Sent: 15 August, 2016 01:43
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xk] XK120 C Type head

In reply to a message from Nick53XK120S sent Sun 14 Aug 2016:

I was told about 35 years ago by a person in SCal who sold lots of used
special equipment parts and seemed to know XK120s pretty well that he had
personally seen a C Type head received in the boot of a new late xk120 for
installation by the dealer before delivery as new. He did not specify
whether this head was stamped with the proper engine number or not.

I have often wondered whether it was likely or not pre- stamped.

He also claimed that a particular Jaguar dealer actually had made up locally
a brass plaque that the dealer attached to the firewall of new cars to
document the fitting of a true C-Type head.

I pass this along as unproven second -hand information

I did buy from him a genuine auxiliary fuel tank and a set of original
bucket seats, and perhaps some other stuff as well. I say that only to show
that he had some knowledge of, and interest in special equipment.

Karl

The original message included these comments:

during the late XK120 mfg…then have no engine number on the inner
front flat…as it would not have been '‘attached’ to a car?

–
karl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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7

PS.

SB.95A not just SB.95 as I have shown.

Roger Payne
XK140MC OTS; 4.2E OTS; DaimlerSV8
Canberra, Australia

.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
Roger Payne
Sent: 15 August, 2016 11:40
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [xk] XK120 C Type head

Karl,

That’s the problem 60 years later, locating hard proof to support the period
THEORY, as its impossible to DISPROOVE something.

After years of effort from three continents, I have pretty well concluded
that the ‘infamous’ SERVICE BULLETIN No.95 is a ‘red herring’
Whether floated by Jaguar for ‘homologation’ reasons for their factory
in-house and works supported private teams, I really do not believe any
XK120 owners outside factory prepared cars, or maybe one or two of the UK
based factory supported teams (like Ecurie Ecosse) ever received all or
parts of this SB.95 kit. Clearly however owners of C-types, may well have
sought/sourced spare heads (as a priority supply from Jaguar), and who is to
say such heads or ex-C-type heads didn’t end up being fitted to USA racing
XK120s. Be worth tracking down the top USA racing XK120 teams/cars from
1952 to 1954 period (if they survive in their 1954 status).

But I am equally conclusive that no XK120 EVER left the factory originally
equipped with a C-type head and/or H8 carburetters.

I have ONE only claim that I have been unable to verify one way or the other
remaining, which has some probability of possibly being true, and that is of
a USA Customer for a 1954 XK120 FHC demanding/insisting his new XK120 FHC
order to include C-type head and H8 carburetters, that on being told not
possible by Dealer, then direct to JCars USA, ended up approaching Jaguar UK
direct and insisted, and some nine months later, received his new 1954 XK120
FHC so fitted, one would presume off-line, by the factory experimental
department.

It’s a good story and rings as a true possibility, but if so, does tell you
that short of similar effort, there would not have been a second XK120 so
factory-new delivered.

More probably, as you recall - parts supplied in the boot for the dealer to
fit, but in such a case, that’s still not factory original, as who is to say
what a local dealer may or may not have done, indeed fitting a brass-plaque
to the firewall amongst other local USA mods. Maybe your story relates to
my remaining claim?

So best I can tell is during the 1952 to 1954 period Jaguar evolved their
standard A-type head by machining variations and a couple casting variations
into first the head fitted onto production C-types, thus getting the name of
C-type head, and thus SB.95 for homologation purposes for the odd factory
supported XK120/Mark VII.
But clearly for production purposes Jaguar did tool-up to make C-type heads
that were offered as part of the XK140MC options kit, invariably with normal
H6 carburetters and manifold and distributor.
The first of these ‘production’ C-type heads did not have the raised-cast
‘C’ on the spark plug valley, that being added in early 1955 (I have rough
demarcation point).

The XK120M (USA terminology), or factory terminology XK120 SE (Special
Equipment) did not have a C-type head, but indeed the same normal XK120
A-type head, but with high-lift cams and valves fitted to provide the 20 bhp
power increase claimed. With their Engine numbers stamped -8S, many people
confuse this with XK140s where -8S indicates a C-type head being fitted.

But there are several physical indicators on both A-type and C-type heads,
and indeed the experimental/evolving 1952 to 1954 development heads that any
claims of having an original C-type head fitted is very easily proved, or in
the case of XK120s easily disproved.

And same thing applies to associated Inlet Manifolds and H8 carburetters.

AS above, easy to PROOVE something, but unfortunately impossible to
DISPROOVE something, especially 60 years later, but at this stage I am 100%
happy with my conclusions, but still quite happy to be PROVEN wrong.

Roger Payne
XK140MC OTS; 4.2E OTS; DaimlerSV8
Canberra, Australia

.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
karl
Sent: 15 August, 2016 01:43
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xk] XK120 C Type head

In reply to a message from Nick53XK120S sent Sun 14 Aug 2016:

I was told about 35 years ago by a person in SCal who sold lots of used
special equipment parts and seemed to know XK120s pretty well that he had
personally seen a C Type head received in the boot of a new late xk120 for
installation by the dealer before delivery as new. He did not specify
whether this head was stamped with the proper engine number or not.

I have often wondered whether it was likely or not pre- stamped.

He also claimed that a particular Jaguar dealer actually had made up locally
a brass plaque that the dealer attached to the firewall of new cars to
document the fitting of a true C-Type head.

I pass this along as unproven second -hand information

I did buy from him a genuine auxiliary fuel tank and a set of original
bucket seats, and perhaps some other stuff as well. I say that only to show
that he had some knowledge of, and interest in special equipment.

Karl

The original message included these comments:

during the late XK120 mfg…then have no engine number on the inner
front flat…as it would not have been '‘attached’ to a car?

–
karl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]-- --Support
Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

8

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Sun 14 Aug 2016:

Roger,

I too am 100% happy with your conclusions, and will add one
possible/tentative other; that no XK120 OTS car was ever
delivered to a dealer with ‘‘optional’’ fog lamps actually
fitted by the factory. Same story in a way. I guess by
extrapolation it goes to all the optional racing stuff, and
one might speculate that no car was ever delivered by the
factory fitted (in place) with folding windscreens and so
they cannot be said to be original either; a little more
tricky as they were reputed (I have no proof) to be in the
boot of some cars as standard equipment in that day.

I take you point about a genuine factory spare sold loose
not being ‘‘original’’ by judging standards which require
factory fitment too, not just genuine factory sourced.

I was speculating only about the very special case of what
engine number stamping might or might not have been on a
spare ‘‘works modified to the C-specs’’ head sold loose and
extra by the factory to accompany a new delivery but not
fitted to the car; say an American who fancied bragging
about owning a race-equipped version. In way, my anecdote
supports your position that the factory would not actually
fit such a head - a factory produced C spec head - but
might sell it to a dealer as a spare part to be installed
at point off sale.

I admit it is to some extent about angels dancing on the
heads of pins, but the poster suggested ‘‘no marking’’, and I
was recalling clues to a possible other answer of how there
might be markings based on an account back in the day by
someone who might have had the knowledge to get it straight.

All speculation, just as was the OP.

Karl–
karl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

9

What are ‘folding windscreens’ in the context of XKs?

I can’t of course comment conclusively about what may or may not have been
the status of any new-factory spare-parts head that may or may not have
accompanied a new XK120 delivery, but certainly there are a number of
confirmed examples of both new-spare-parts blocks and heads being supplied
with NO Engine Number stamped on them, with variable attitude by local
workshops and their registration authorities as to whether they leave them
unnumbered, stamp in the original number, or stamp in a totally unrelated
‘assigned number’

The state of NSW in Australia for instance, for a long period but no longer
do it, if they could not locate the original number on an engine, assign a
number and require that to be stamped in.
In Victoria, if a new replacement head was fitted, un-numbered from the
factory, then it had its original number stamped in.
I don’t know what happened officially or unofficially in USA, albeit
available evidence says all spare parts supplied heads and blocks were
delivered without any stamped in Engine Number.

And of course these days, there is an industry in UK, USA and Australia that
is well practiced with deleting the original number from a non-original head
and/or block, and stamping in the original number to make car ‘numbers
matching’, and also the next step as the start of a rebirthing of a new car
with a forged identity, sadly sometimes duplicating the still existing
original.

Part of the reason why research is now way beyond blindly accepting
first-glance stamped in Engine Numbers, with enough knowledge now of
castings and other identifiers.

And back to the XK120 situation, my best research to date says the C7707
head casting was the ‘production’ version of the so-called ‘C-type head’
that was first offered from October 1954 as an option on XK140MC, and these
first C-type heads although painted RED did not have the characteristic cast
in large ‘C’ on the floor of the sparking-plug valley. That was introduced
in early 1955. This C7707 casting was the THIRD major casting variation,
with the first C-type heads fitted to the 1952 (June) LeMans works C-types
being little more than modified A-type head castings.

Over the June 1952 to September 1954 period there was a steady evolution of
both the head casting (three main variants) and then how it was
machined/assembled (multiple interim variants).

Fortunately, I can now ‘reasonably’ identify and date this evolution, thus
any claims of ‘original heads’ can be easily proved (or at least confidently
supported) or disproved, regardless of having a stamped in Engine Number or
not.
Same applies to Inlet Manifold and to any fitted H8 carburetters.

I certainly don’t have any problem at all with an XK120 owner seeking to
upgrade their 160bhp XK120 or 180bhp XK120SE to C-type Head/H8 specification
if that is what they want, but they then can’t feel upset if they are
penalized if they choose to play the Concours Judged Originality game, as
fitting even a period 1952 to 1954 evolving specification C-type head to an
XK120 or XK120SE (let alone an ex-XK140MC head), is no different to an XK140
owner upgrading to XK140MC specification, or an XK150 owner upgrading to
XK150S specification.
I think JCNA allows for such ‘upgrades’ in their ‘Modified Class’, albeit in
Australia we have no equivalent - it’s totally about ex-factory
original/authentic specification with only a couple of specific defined
exemptions (like fitting of seat belts as required by State Laws).

Roger Payne
XK140MC OTS; 4.2E OTS; DaimlerSV8
Canberra, Australia

.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
karl
Sent: 15 August, 2016 21:14
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [xk] XK120 C Type head

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Sun 14 Aug 2016:

Roger,

I too am 100% happy with your conclusions, and will add one
possible/tentative other; that no XK120 OTS car was ever delivered to a
dealer with ‘‘optional’’ fog lamps actually fitted by the factory. Same
story in a way. I guess by extrapolation it goes to all the optional racing
stuff, and one might speculate that no car was ever delivered by the factory
fitted (in place) with folding windscreens and so they cannot be said to be
original either; a little more tricky as they were reputed (I have no proof)
to be in the boot of some cars as standard equipment in that day.

I take you point about a genuine factory spare sold loose not being
‘‘original’’ by judging standards which require factory fitment too, not
just genuine factory sourced.

I was speculating only about the very special case of what engine number
stamping might or might not have been on a spare ‘‘works modified to the
C-specs’’ head sold loose and extra by the factory to accompany a new
delivery but not fitted to the car; say an American who fancied bragging
about owning a race-equipped version. In way, my anecdote supports your
position that the factory would not actually fit such a head - a factory
produced C spec head - but might sell it to a dealer as a spare part to be
installed at point off sale.

I admit it is to some extent about angels dancing on the heads of pins, but
the poster suggested ‘‘no marking’’, and I was recalling clues to a possible
other answer of how there might be markings based on an account back in the
day by someone who might have had the knowledge to get it straight.

All speculation, just as was the OP.

Karl

karl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]-- --Support
Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

10

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Mon 15 Aug 2016:

Roger,

I was alluding to ‘‘racing areoscreens’’.

Karl–
The original message included these comments:

What are ‘folding windscreens’ in the context of XKs?

–
karl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

11

OK Karl, got it.

Just by chance I had an original XK120 racing screen ex a 1950 XK120 raced
in Australia in my hands yesterday, just before returning to owner who has
another 1950 XK120 with both left and right-side racing screens, and the
cowl for his central rear-vision mirror, all still fitted as per the XKs
1950s racing set-up, so all the correct 1950 factory parts - the glass
screens fit within a framework that is adjustable/fold-down, and is fixed
into an aluminium housing that in turn is fixed to the bulkhead top
panel/shroud, thus the ‘folding windscreens’.

I thought you may have been referring to the Austin Healey 100-4 type of
folding-windscreen, which would have been something new to me re XKs.

Roger Payne
XK140MC OTS; 4.2E OTS; DaimlerSV8
Canberra, Australia

.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
karl
Sent: 16 August, 2016 10:47
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [xk] XK120 C Type head

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Mon 15 Aug 2016:

Roger,

I was alluding to ‘‘racing areoscreens’’.

Karl

The original message included these comments:

What are ‘folding windscreens’ in the context of XKs?

–
karl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]-- --Support
Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

12

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Mon 15 Aug 2016:

Roger,

Having spent way to much time trying to pin this down, you
would do a great favor of you might post photos of factory
original cowlings used to cover the windscreen post holes
in the body shell when the aeroscreens were fitted.

It is my belief that the correct items were actually formed
to include an aft facing opening, and I have pictures of
this from the early days, but everyone today seems to be
content to make them flush cover plates. Indeed there were
cars photographed in period photos that seem to have just
such flush plates, but I am guessing that these were not
the factory original pattern.

Pictures may not lie, but they can mislead.

Another very valuable bit of information would be some
dimensions and photos on a ‘‘factory’’ mirror shroud. Again
lots of old photos that confuse. A major issue is whether
the factory shroud was made to accommodate the OTS high
rear view mirror stalk, or whether the FHC low stalk was
fitted for racing trim on a genuine factory shroud. I have
heard both advocated.

Karl–
The original message included these comments:

Just by chance I had an original XK120 racing screen ex a 1950 XK120 raced
in Australia in my hands yesterday, just before returning to owner who has
another 1950 XK120 with both left and right-side racing screens, and the
cowl for his central rear-vision mirror, all still fitted as per the XKs
1950s racing set-up, so all the correct 1950 factory parts - the glass
screens fit within a framework that is adjustable/fold-down, and is fixed
into an aluminium housing that in turn is fixed to the bulkhead top
panel/shroud, thus the ‘folding windscreens’.

–
karl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

13

Karl,

Will respond and send you pictures direct.

Roger Payne
XK140MC OTS; 4.2E OTS; DaimlerSV8
Canberra, Australia

.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
karl
Sent: 16 August, 2016 20:44
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [xk] XK120 C Type head

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Mon 15 Aug 2016:

Roger,

Having spent way to much time trying to pin this down, you would do a great
favor of you might post photos of factory original cowlings used to cover
the windscreen post holes in the body shell when the aeroscreens were
fitted.

It is my belief that the correct items were actually formed to include an
aft facing opening, and I have pictures of this from the early days, but
everyone today seems to be content to make them flush cover plates. Indeed
there were cars photographed in period photos that seem to have just such
flush plates, but I am guessing that these were not the factory original
pattern.

Pictures may not lie, but they can mislead.

Another very valuable bit of information would be some dimensions and photos
on a ‘‘factory’’ mirror shroud. Again lots of old photos that confuse. A
major issue is whether the factory shroud was made to accommodate the OTS
high rear view mirror stalk, or whether the FHC low stalk was fitted for
racing trim on a genuine factory shroud. I have heard both advocated.

Karl

The original message included these comments:

Just by chance I had an original XK120 racing screen ex a 1950 XK120
raced in Australia in my hands yesterday, just before returning to
owner who has another 1950 XK120 with both left and right-side racing
screens, and the cowl for his central rear-vision mirror, all still
fitted as per the XKs 1950s racing set-up, so all the correct 1950
factory parts - the glass screens fit within a framework that is
adjustable/fold-down, and is fixed into an aluminium housing that in
turn is fixed to the bulkhead top panel/shroud, thus the ‘folding
windscreens’.

–
karl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]-- --Support
Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

14

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Tue 16 Aug 2016:

here I go again…but reports (posts) that begin with…’’.I knew
a guy who had a friend whose uncle had a brother with a Jag
and he said…’’ are, well…enough said.
new but related to originality…How bout the mirrors out on
the fenders seen so often…did any XK120 have them factory
installed? What do concourse judges rule…is it safety
equipment?–
Nick53XK120S
Spokane WA, United States
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15

Nick,

Can’t comment re situation in JCNA (USA) but external rear-vision mirrors
are not considered a safety-item in Australia, so are treated exactly the
same as any other added accessory.

Having said that it is impossible to know whether a factory-accessory was
fitted at the factory, by the dealership, or aftermarket 12 months or 12
years later, so our criteria is if fitted accessory is 100% correct item for
specific age of vehicle and model of vehicle, and it is fitted/positioned
exactly as the factory did fit the same factory fitted accessory, then by
our Rules it is AUTHENTIC and acceptable accordingly.

As with all things, and MIRRORS are no different, is that the entrant/Judge
needs to have the knowledge of what was exact correct accessory, and how it
was factory-fitted, but as per our judging guidelines, we err in favour of
the entrant if Judges knowledge is not fully up to speed, and we don’t have
the benefit of our own specific Judging Guide, albeit we do rely/use
CREDIBLE REFERENCE BOOKS, and for XK120 the only ones I rate acceptable are
Urs Schmid’s two Volumes, and the XK120 component of Philip Porters JAGUAR
ORIGINAL XK (Third Edition only).

But as an aside, ‘Wing’ (or Fender) Mirrors albeit popular and common in UK,
are a total rarity in Australia, being bloody useless on our fast/sparse
density traffic and roads, thus it always mystified me why on earth they
were popular in UK.
First time I drove regularly in London traffic where you squeeze down narrow
lanes with inches to spare between parked cars and adjacent lanes, I finally
saw how useful they were in such traffic conditions.

I would have thought LA apart, USA traffic would be more similar to ours,
especially in Spokane?

Why destroy the clean-lines of an XK’s Fenders (Wings, Mudguards)

Roger Payne
XK140MC OTS; 4.2E OTS; DaimlerSV8
Canberra, Australia

.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
Nick53XK120S
Sent: 21 August, 2016 10:03
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [xk] XK120 C Type head

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Tue 16 Aug 2016:

here I go again…but reports (posts) that begin with…’’.I knew a guy who
had a friend whose uncle had a brother with a Jag and he said…’’ are,
well…enough said.
new but related to originality…How bout the mirrors out on the fenders seen
so often…did any XK120 have them factory installed? What do concourse
judges rule…is it safety equipment?

Nick53XK120S
Spokane WA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]-- --Support
Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

16

Roger;
'Cuz they (the Lucas Wing Wirrors) look good out on the
crest of the front wings… There is an air of “Royality” about
them… But that’s MY opinion… I’m neither judge nor
auhority, only an owner who like (liked) my mirrors out
on the wings!!
Besides, set correctly, one CAN see back in both lanes
(left & right) to see if one is close to another vehicle…
even in Texas traffic ;-}
Charles #677556.----- Original Message -----
From: “Roger Payne”

Why destroy the clean-lines of an XK’s Fenders (Wings, Mudguards)

Roger Payne

17

Nick,

What are these “fender” things"???

Regards,
from a fellow who’s mailman delivers to a guy with a 120 Jag!..oops
that’s .me (actually I have two of them)

Rick
On Sat, 20 Aug 2016 17:03:17 -0700 “Nick53XK120S”
mountainwolf8034@aol.com writes:> In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Tue 16 Aug 2016:

here I go again…but reports (posts) that begin with…‘’.I knew
a guy who had a friend whose uncle had a brother with a Jag
and he said…‘’ are, well…enough said.
new but related to originality…How bout the mirrors out on
the fenders seen so often…did any XK120 have them factory
installed? What do concourse judges rule…is it safety
equipment?

Nick53XK120S
Spokane WA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at
http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

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18

roger of course forgot to mention the following important reference guides
“XK120 Explored”
The factory spare parts catalogs J8 along with 120DHC and FHC supplements
The factory services bulletins
The factory workshop manual for XK120 and MKVII
Factory price lists
other factory documentation

all these items contain useful information

other great reference sources include various books with period photos.

terry
http://www.JTPublications.com.au

and we don’t have> the benefit of our own specific Judging Guide, albeit we do rely/use

CREDIBLE REFERENCE BOOKS, and for XK120 the only ones I rate acceptable
are
Urs Schmid’s two Volumes, and the XK120 component of Philip Porters JAGUAR
ORIGINAL XK (Third Edition only).

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

19

Nope, didn’t forget Terry.

I deliberately didn’t include XK120 EXPLORED as a credible/reliable
(Overall) accurate reference book, albeit a nice-to-have Coffee-Table Book,
despite the fact that I made a huge contribution to its layout and contents.
Just too many errors in the final as-published content throughout, for
something purporting to be an Originality Guide, to be considered
credible/reliable.

All the line drawings are however superb, so maybe one day there will be a
vastly improved Second Edition regarding detail/content? Are you
volunteering to provide this necessary expertise?

The factory J.8, J.11 and J.13 Spare Parts Catalogues of course go without
saying - are most definitely credible/accurate as are the Service Bulletins.

The next non-factory ‘author written’ book on XK120s worth considering after
Urs Schmid’s two Volumes, and Philip Porters JAGUAR ORIGINAL XK (Third
Edition) would have to be the JDHT book XK120 IN DETAIL - has lots of good
detail throughout, if not meant to be an originality reference.

And your two books, as great as they are giving individual histories and ‘at
a distance’ period photos of XK120s, don’t pretend to have any editorial
content/detail nor intentions regarding XK120 ORIGINALITY, thus are outside
the question and my response relating to originality references.

There are of course many books and period literature that have various bits
and pieces of interest, but you need to be able to interpret all that
individually, and are not a single concise, all-encompassing Originality
Guide on XK120.

But that’s my opinion.

And JCNA is in the process of producing a local USA XK120 Judging Guide, to
update their existing publication many years old now, and I understand
progressing well now with current authors/converners, if not after a
troubled start, but others involved can comment.

Roger Payne
XK140MC OTS; 4.2E OTS; DaimlerSV8
Canberra, Australia

.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
Terry McGrath
Sent: 22 August, 2016 12:25
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [xk] XK120 C Type head

roger of course forgot to mention the following important reference guides
“XK120 Explored”
The factory spare parts catalogs J8 along with 120DHC and FHC supplements
The factory services bulletins The factory workshop manual for XK120 and
MKVII Factory price lists other factory documentation

all these items contain useful information

other great reference sources include various books with period photos.

terry
http://www.JTPublications.com.au

and we don’t have

the benefit of our own specific Judging Guide, albeit we do rely/use
CREDIBLE REFERENCE BOOKS, and for XK120 the only ones I rate
acceptable are Urs Schmid’s two Volumes, and the XK120 component of
Philip Porters JAGUAR ORIGINAL XK (Third Edition only).

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

20

Roger,

The wing mirrors are certainly not more “destructive” than the line
altering “ugliness” of the later 140 with it’s harsh 'amusement park"
like “bumpers”, barbecue like front grille and gaudy metal embellish
strips down the bonnet and boot.

Just kidding of course, but their beauty (any style, colo(u)r, model or
year) is in the eyes of the beholder!

Like Charles’ my DHC was fitted with wing mirrors. I have replaced the
originals with convex mirrors that “work” a bit, but I have not found the
“original” curvature that renders them quite useful.

Flat mirrors up there, IMHO are useless. Too much curvature (like mine)
severely confuses depth perception, however the very wide view is
useful…

Regards

Rick> > Why destroy the clean-lines of an XK’s Fenders (Wings, Mudguards)

Roger Payne

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