[xk] XK120 FHC 679032, sunroof

Mike, thanks for the details, always appreciated. The factory did not do
sunroofs on XKs but I have seen 150s with Webastos, presumably dealer
fitted. Regards, John Elmgreen

In reply to a message from John Elmgreen sent Thu 5 Feb 2009:

John in fact the 150s could be ordered with a Webasto roof but
these were all ex factory. I think what confuses folks is that a
customer placed his order and even when picked up in Europe (US Tax
free customers) the car was presented as ordered. In fact the car
had been taken down the road after final inspection and a specilist
did the work. SImple rule for thought in these issues is if there
are no factory spare parts available in either the manuals or
bulletins then it was not factory supported. But when one looks at
distributor price sheets from the period it is clear that a
customer could order a Webasto as an extra—the normal assumption
is that it is factory–wonder how hard it was to have repair or get
parts later as the dealer would have no supply and the
internet/fax/ etc. was yet here! Bet it did nothing for customer
confidence.–
The original message included these comments:

Mike, thanks for the details, always appreciated. The factory did not do
sunroofs on XKs but I have seen 150s with Webastos, presumably dealer
fitted. Regards, John Elmgreen


George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from George Camp sent Thu 5 Feb 2009:

Thanks for the information guys. I’ll get some pictures
posted of the sunroof and German data tag in the next few
days.

BTW, the sunroof is not metal. Interior is finished in
headliner material with a chrome latching handle. Once
unlocked it slides back manually like an accordion. When
closed, it fits very flush with the headliner and looks
great. Exterior material is probably vinyl and doesn’t have
the best fitment right now. I’m sure it fit better when new…–
Mike
Spokane, WA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Mike,

What you have described is a WEBASTO brand sun-roof. A reasonably popular
aftermarket fitment to all brands of cars in UK, and I dare say some export
markets. It was not unknown for Jaguars including XKs to have them
installed by their Jaguar dealer, before taking delivery of their new car,
BUT they were never fitted by the factory and cannot be considered to be
“Original”

I understand this subtle clarification will take affect from the 2009 JCNA
Concours year. In Australia, we have never accepted WEBASTO sun-roofs as
original, after having some considerable heated debate about their fitment
close to 20 years ago.

When new, they did fot really well and were a delight to use, and perfect
for an aftermarket fitment where there is no structural reinforcement in
roof as was required by the factory metal sliding sunroofs found in Mark VII

IX and a rare option on Mark 2 saloons. The Webasto is also more
accommodating of greater roof curvature than the sliding-steel sun-roof
which is probably the reason Jaguar did not offer factory sunroofs on XKs.

Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
MikeWiser
Sent: Friday, 6 February 2009 5:24 AM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xk] XK120 FHC 679032, sunroof

In reply to a message from George Camp sent Thu 5 Feb 2009:

Thanks for the information guys. I’ll get some pictures
posted of the sunroof and German data tag in the next few
days.

BTW, the sunroof is not metal. Interior is finished in
headliner material with a chrome latching handle. Once
unlocked it slides back manually like an accordion. When
closed, it fits very flush with the headliner and looks
great. Exterior material is probably vinyl and doesn’t have
the best fitment right now. I’m sure it fit better when new…

Mike
Spokane, WA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Thu 5 Feb 2009:

Hello Roger,

Yes, a hot topic sometimes. But I find it difficult to
understand what affect this should have regarding the 2009
JCNA concours?

A friend of mine has a Daimler Double Six Coup�, 1st sold
and registered in May 1978. It has had a Webasto roof since
new, all the documents are there including the receipt from
H.R. Owen who sold the car in London and the warranty
certificate for the Webasto roof installation that was
installed in Coventry. Not by Jaguar obviously, but a
Webasto specialist somewhere down the road in Coventry.

This makes a difference between some accessory that ‘‘some
dealer installed somewhere’’ and an accessory that the
official channel took care of. I mean most likely someone
from the factory delivered the car (and other similar cases)
from Browns Lane to the Webasto shop in question and then
back to Browns Lane where it would then be transported among
other brand new Jaguars (& Daimlers) to a port, a dealer or
a customer. In this particular case the car stood several
months in stock before being sold, so from that customers
point of view ‘‘it came from the factory’’ although we all
know they never installed any Webasto roofs at Browns Lane.

IMO this belongs to the same category as special equipment
in various markets (I have personal experience from italian
horns, scandinavian headlight washers etc.) or special
dealer versions like the Guy Salmon jubilee models. Or the
Avon S3 XJ estate (that was not very beautiful IMO) that
also was covered by the factory warranty, although the
bodywork mods and rear screen etc. were done by Avon.

So although this was clearly an aftermarket item, the
official channel sold them with a warranty, that would not
conflict with the factory warranty and I can not see why
this roof would be any problem at any concours. I think
you need to differentiate then ‘‘factory original’’ and
‘‘original’’. The same would apply for instance for the
wheels. If an official Jaguar dealer had a special alloy
wheel available as an option and it offered by them, it has
to be considered ‘‘original’’ for that car. If the 1st owner
went to a tire shop and bought a set of Minilites or
whatever, they are ‘‘not original’’. Of course something like
this would have to be proven with official documents.

If someone is really interested I can probably get you
copies of those papers.

Without having any knowledge of the logistics of Jaguar
Australia (having heard the new cars might have been
resprayed locally when new if a customer wanted a different
colour than what was in stock!) but I wouldn’t be surprised
if there would be a Jaguar (or Daimler) in Australia that
would have had it’s Webasto roof fitted in Coventry prior to
transporting the car to Southampton for shipping to
Australia. So how could you not consider that roof
‘‘original’’? I know it’s a lot easier for you guys to
consider everything not found in the spare parts books as
‘‘non original’’ but it’s not fair, as it’s not the truth either!

Just my euro 2c
Pekka T.–
The original message included these comments:

Mike,
What you have described is a WEBASTO brand sun-roof. A reasonably popular
aftermarket fitment to all brands of cars in UK, and I dare say some export
markets. It was not unknown for Jaguars including XKs to have them
installed by their Jaguar dealer, before taking delivery of their new car,
BUT they were never fitted by the factory and cannot be considered to be
‘‘Original’’
I understand this subtle clarification will take affect from the 2009 JCNA
Concours year. In Australia, we have never accepted WEBASTO sun-roofs as
original, after having some considerable heated debate about their fitment
close to 20 years ago.


MKV 3.5L DHC, E-type 2+2 Ser.1 MOD, XJ6C MOD, XJ8 Executive
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Pekka,

Your Euro 2c is worth more than our Australian 2c and I cannot speak on
behalf on JCNA, but I can speak with some authority on the Australian
Concours Rules.

Its basically there has to be a clear provable evidence demarcation point,
and factory original is black and white.

Once you start considering Dealer fitted modifications, you are in
unprovable grey territory as you yourself point out with your examples.

And who is to say what constitutes a Dealer, given many Jaguars were sold
new by sub-dealers or special home-delivery arrangements etc.

And although the Spare-Parts-Catalogues are an excellent starting point,
there are many other sources of reference material as well, but it gets to a
point that you cannot expect any judge to assess whether a set of minilites
(to use your example) was in fact fitted years after the car was sold new,
or may have been fitted by some obscure sub-dealer at the cars first
service, or maybe before customer took delivery of car new. We do know
however that they are not factory-original so no debate. And I hate to say
it, the era of forged evidence documentation already exists - we have had a
JDHT Certificate altered to “prove” a non-authentic paint colour was
original for the car being judged

At the end of the day, it’s the local club members who make the rules and
can modify them. WE have a few “local” peculiarities that have been
successfully argued to modify our rules, as is the case in USA and UK, so
there is some workable flexibility; but to blindly accept dealer
modifications as “original” would be a pandoras box.

I know one magnificent XK150S FHC in Los Angeles, that would have to be the
“best” restored “original” XK I have ever had the pleasure of inspecting,
but it has three or four dealer modifications, including a Webasto Sun Roof
(so yes, a UK Dealer was the culprit) that the owner chose to maintain when
restoring the XK - he could have easily fixed these four items if he had
wanted to. Sad in a lot of ways, as this car is totally correct in all
respects in areas that are never judged, but these four modifications are
all obvious, so this car will never get the recognition it deserves; but I
respect the owners decision to keep these modifications that have been on
the car since new, otherwise a 100.0 XK150S.

Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
ptelivuo
Sent: Friday, 6 February 2009 7:21 PM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [xk] XK120 FHC 679032, sunroof

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Thu 5 Feb 2009:

Hello Roger,

Yes, a hot topic sometimes. But I find it difficult to
understand what affect this should have regarding the 2009
JCNA concours?

A friend of mine has a Daimler Double Six Coupé, 1st sold
and registered in May 1978. It has had a Webasto roof since
new, all the documents are there including the receipt from
H.R. Owen who sold the car in London and the warranty
certificate for the Webasto roof installation that was
installed in Coventry. Not by Jaguar obviously, but a
Webasto specialist somewhere down the road in Coventry.

This makes a difference between some accessory that ‘‘some
dealer installed somewhere’’ and an accessory that the
official channel took care of. I mean most likely someone
from the factory delivered the car (and other similar cases)
from Browns Lane to the Webasto shop in question and then
back to Browns Lane where it would then be transported among
other brand new Jaguars (& Daimlers) to a port, a dealer or
a customer. In this particular case the car stood several
months in stock before being sold, so from that customers
point of view ‘‘it came from the factory’’ although we all
know they never installed any Webasto roofs at Browns Lane.

IMO this belongs to the same category as special equipment
in various markets (I have personal experience from italian
horns, scandinavian headlight washers etc.) or special
dealer versions like the Guy Salmon jubilee models. Or the
Avon S3 XJ estate (that was not very beautiful IMO) that
also was covered by the factory warranty, although the
bodywork mods and rear screen etc. were done by Avon.

So although this was clearly an aftermarket item, the
official channel sold them with a warranty, that would not
conflict with the factory warranty and I can not see why
this roof would be any problem at any concours. I think
you need to differentiate then ‘‘factory original’’ and
‘‘original’’. The same would apply for instance for the
wheels. If an official Jaguar dealer had a special alloy
wheel available as an option and it offered by them, it has
to be considered ‘‘original’’ for that car. If the 1st owner
went to a tire shop and bought a set of Minilites or
whatever, they are ‘‘not original’’. Of course something like
this would have to be proven with official documents.

If someone is really interested I can probably get you
copies of those papers.

Without having any knowledge of the logistics of Jaguar
Australia (having heard the new cars might have been
resprayed locally when new if a customer wanted a different
colour than what was in stock!) but I wouldn’t be surprised
if there would be a Jaguar (or Daimler) in Australia that
would have had it’s Webasto roof fitted in Coventry prior to
transporting the car to Southampton for shipping to
Australia. So how could you not consider that roof
‘‘original’’? I know it’s a lot easier for you guys to
consider everything not found in the spare parts books as
‘‘non original’’ but it’s not fair, as it’s not the truth either!

Just my euro 2c
Pekka T.

The original message included these comments:

Mike,
What you have described is a WEBASTO brand sun-roof. A reasonably popular
aftermarket fitment to all brands of cars in UK, and I dare say some
export
markets. It was not unknown for Jaguars including XKs to have them
installed by their Jaguar dealer, before taking delivery of their new car,
BUT they were never fitted by the factory and cannot be considered to be
‘‘Original’’
I understand this subtle clarification will take affect from the 2009 JCNA
Concours year. In Australia, we have never accepted WEBASTO sun-roofs as
original, after having some considerable heated debate about their fitment
close to 20 years ago.


MKV 3.5L DHC, E-type 2+2 Ser.1 MOD, XJ6C MOD, XJ8 Executive
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

IMO this belongs to the same category as special equipment
in various markets (I have personal experience from italian
horns, scandinavian headlight washers etc.) or special
dealer versions like the Guy Salmon jubilee models. Or the
Avon S3 XJ estate (that was not very beautiful IMO) that
also was covered by the factory warranty, although the
bodywork mods and rear screen etc. were done by Avon.

So although this was clearly an aftermarket item, the
official channel sold them with a warranty, that would not
conflict with the factory warranty and I can not see why
this roof would be any problem at any concours. I think
you need to differentiate then ‘‘factory original’’ and
‘‘original’’. The same would apply for instance for the
wheels. If an official Jaguar dealer had a special alloy
wheel available as an option and it offered by them, it has
to be considered ‘‘original’’ for that car. If the 1st owner
went to a tire shop and bought a set of Minilites or
whatever, they are ‘‘not original’’. Of course something like
this would have to be proven with official documents.

If someone is really interested I can probably get you
copies of those papers.

Without having any knowledge of the logistics of Jaguar
Australia (having heard the new cars might have been
resprayed locally when new if a customer wanted a different
colour than what was in stock!) but I wouldn’t be surprised
if there would be a Jaguar (or Daimler) in Australia that
would have had it’s Webasto roof fitted in Coventry prior to
transporting the car to Southampton for shipping to
Australia. So how could you not consider that roof
‘‘original’’? I know it’s a lot easier for you guys to
consider everything not found in the spare parts books as
‘‘non original’’ but it’s not fair, as it’s not the truth either!

They did the same thing here in the States with the earliest cars to have
sunroofs. They were done by American Sunroof Corp down the road from the
plants. The first to have this done was probably the 1967 Cougar. Cars
were taken to the plant and a hole cut in the roof… Then delivered thru
normal channels. They were later done in-house…

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Fri 6 Feb 2009:

Thanks Roger,

As you say, sad. I am glad that owner chose to keep the
features original to that particular car and maintain the
true history of it. Instead of turning it to a restored car
that shows no history at all and that the 1st owner would
probably not even recognize, huh?

We can face also a problem where people restoring cars will
faithfully reproduce even the typos in the parts books! Rob
on the Pre-XK forum has been helping me out in figuring out
some of the obvious and less obvious mistakes in the MKV
parts book. Many of them can not be judged as they will
remain hidden, but they are the kind of things that give
this hobby the salt and grain it needs IMO.

Still the idea of forged JDHT certificates etc. is insane,
but I perfectly believe you. That’s why I thought I’d be
glad to share along with my friend copies of genuine
documents to help in determining possible fabricated
receipts etc. Hmm…or maybe that would just make forging
easier for some, it would still need to be a car sold by
H.R.Owen but I guess they sold lots of cars!

Concours is a game, that’s fine. But if it will promote the
destruction of the real history of restored vehicles, maybe
the rules would need to checked again? The rise of the
preservation class is a good thing, but again that leaves no
options for cars that need some restoration.

I have read and heard of sunroof wars in the past, like a
metal sunroof in a S2 or S3 E-type. You are right it could
be Pandora’s box, but I still feel it is wrong to say these
sunroofs are not ‘‘original’’. Especially if they can be
verified with original paperwork. Also in some cases this
can be verified ‘‘as delivered from the factory’’ as there are
people who collected the car direct from the factory. I know
one such E OTS S1.5 where the owner desperately wanted a
tonneau cover and they said no. But the factory contacted
him later saying that they do have one available now. The
owner was then in Switzerland and going to drive the car to
Finland, so he decided to skip it. But he could have
collected a ‘‘factory tonneau cover for an E OTS’’ if he had
wanted. I guess no one know where they wold have gotten it
from, but that’s the kind of customer service that was still
possible back then!

IMO anything that is ‘‘old’’ and ‘‘original’’ and is clean and
working is much more valuable than new and repro ‘‘original’’
parts. I personally hate that aluminium is polished way over
any factory standards and the paint and chrome are also of a
completely different quality in comparison to the
‘‘original’’. But maybe that’s just me, a grumpy relatively
young man! :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Pekka T.–
The original message included these comments:

I know one magnificent XK150S FHC in Los Angeles, that would have to be the
‘‘best’’ restored ‘‘original’’ XK I have ever had the pleasure of inspecting,
but it has three or four dealer modifications, including a Webasto Sun Roof
(so yes, a UK Dealer was the culprit) that the owner chose to maintain when
restoring the XK - he could have easily fixed these four items if he had
wanted to. Sad in a lot of ways, as this car is totally correct in all
respects in areas that are never judged, but these four modifications are
all obvious, so this car will never get the recognition it deserves; but I
respect the owners decision to keep these modifications that have been on
the car since new, otherwise a 100.0 XK150S.
Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.


MKV 3.5L DHC, E-type 2+2 Ser.1 MOD, XJ6C MOD, XJ8 Executive
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

John,

Impossible to be sure, BUT, no, I am not aware of ANY Jaguars sold new in
Australia with Webasto sunroofs fitted.

Most certainly there are a number of second-hand imports from UK with
Webasto sunroofs, and as I said earlier it was when such a Series 2 E-Type
2+2 from Canberra, recently imported from UK second-hand, was entered in a
National Concours hosted by the JCC (Victoria) that the issue of Webasto
Sunroof originality first became an issue - back in late 1970s. Decision
made then, still stands, as no-one has yet provided evidence to the contrary

  • they are NOT ORIGINAL

Not sure why you think this is “unfair” and “not the truth”.

We have a fall-back position on judging concours originality - if your car
has a feature that cannot be reasonably accepted by a Concours Judge as
“original”, then the onus is on the entrant to provide to the organising
Chief Judge, “evidence” of that feature being original. As before, this
has “invited” a forged JDHT Certificate re original paint colour (did not
succeed), but as yet, no-one has tried to justify “Italian horns,
Scandinavian headlight washers” nor indeed any AVON modifications.

Our National Judging system requires a certain amount of information to be
provided with entry before judging day, that allows a certain amount of
research to be done, before the judges see the car - so they know what to
expect to see, and then on actual judging day we have an appeals provision.
So far, seems to work very well.

Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
john shuck
Sent: Saturday, 7 February 2009 12:22 AM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [xk] XK120 FHC 679032, sunroof

IMO this belongs to the same category as special equipment
in various markets (I have personal experience from italian
horns, scandinavian headlight washers etc.) or special
dealer versions like the Guy Salmon jubilee models. Or the
Avon S3 XJ estate (that was not very beautiful IMO) that
also was covered by the factory warranty, although the
bodywork mods and rear screen etc. were done by Avon.

So although this was clearly an aftermarket item, the
official channel sold them with a warranty, that would not
conflict with the factory warranty and I can not see why
this roof would be any problem at any concours. I think
you need to differentiate then ‘‘factory original’’ and
‘‘original’’. The same would apply for instance for the
wheels. If an official Jaguar dealer had a special alloy
wheel available as an option and it offered by them, it has
to be considered ‘‘original’’ for that car. If the 1st owner
went to a tire shop and bought a set of Minilites or
whatever, they are ‘‘not original’’. Of course something like
this would have to be proven with official documents.

If someone is really interested I can probably get you
copies of those papers.

Without having any knowledge of the logistics of Jaguar
Australia (having heard the new cars might have been
resprayed locally when new if a customer wanted a different
colour than what was in stock!) but I wouldn’t be surprised
if there would be a Jaguar (or Daimler) in Australia that
would have had it’s Webasto roof fitted in Coventry prior to
transporting the car to Southampton for shipping to
Australia. So how could you not consider that roof
‘‘original’’? I know it’s a lot easier for you guys to
consider everything not found in the spare parts books as
‘‘non original’’ but it’s not fair, as it’s not the truth either!

They did the same thing here in the States with the earliest cars to have
sunroofs. They were done by American Sunroof Corp down the road from the
plants. The first to have this done was probably the 1967 Cougar. Cars
were taken to the plant and a hole cut in the roof… Then delivered thru
normal channels. They were later done in-house…

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Fri 6 Feb 2009:

Dear Roger,

It was me, not John who wrote this. He quoted me but I guess
the quotation mark got lost.

I will take copies and send you, just FYI, the papers
regarding the DD6 cpe. It would not score very high either
in that sense that is left the factory RHD and is now LHD,
but so well done, we did not realize before looking at the vin#.

That roof however was sold new with the car, I have no idea
why H.R.Owen had ordered one that way from the factory if it
took them such a long time get it sold, but that’s what it
says on the papers.

Many variations made it also to the official parts books and
such, but I am sure you would agree that if there was a
requirement by law that the factory did not bother to pay
attention to the local distributor was forced to take care
of it. Or they would not have been able to sell and register
any of the cars. Typical ‘‘original’’ not factory market
specific things in here are the warning triangles that were
and still are compulsory, but how many people know what a
1973 E-types came with from the distributor (only 3 pcs sold
new) or the headlight washers on XJ’s and XJS’s:

Jaguar Parts Catalogue XJ6 Series 2 Daimler Sovereign Series
2 RTC9883CA Jan. 1987
Group K ELECTRICAL - headlamp wash-wipe motor SM.5627,
headlamp wash/wipe - wiper motor mountings SM.5663, headlamp
wash/wipe - wiper rack SM.5629, headlamp wash/wipe - wiper
assy SM.5628, headlamp wsh/wipe - reservoir SM.5630,
headlamp wash/wipe - reservoir mountings SM.5631, headlamp
wash/wipe -washer pump and jet SM.5632 and finally headlamp
wash/wipe - harness and switch SM.5636.

Not many people outside Dennmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland
have ever even seen one, but it’s true, it has a switch in
the dash, wipers on the headlamps and a bunch of hoses,
wires and mechanisms inside the engine room and even it’s
own reservoir unlike later when they just used the regular
windscreen washer reservoir, but if you ever happen to see
one, yes, it’s ‘‘factory original’’. :slight_smile:

They did not always bother to include these in the books and
in some cases the service bulletins were sent to the
countries in question only.

Cheers,
Pekka T. in Finland–
The original message included these comments:

John,
Impossible to be sure, BUT, no, I am not aware of ANY Jaguars sold new in
Australia with Webasto sunroofs fitted.
Not sure why you think this is ‘‘unfair’’ and ‘‘not the truth’’.
We have a fall-back position on judging concours originality - if your car
has a feature that cannot be reasonably accepted by a Concours Judge as
‘‘original’’, then the onus is on the entrant to provide to the organising
Chief Judge, ‘‘evidence’’ of that feature being original. As before, this
has ‘‘invited’’ a forged JDHT Certificate re original paint colour (did not
succeed), but as yet, no-one has tried to justify ‘‘Italian horns,
Scandinavian headlight washers’’ nor indeed any AVON modifications.


MKV 3.5L DHC, E-type 2+2 Ser.1 MOD, XJ6C MOD, XJ8 Executive
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Fri 6 Feb 2009:

Hi Roger,

I think so too, now all we have to do is wait and see one of
my fellow countrymen enter one of their cars in a concours
over there…we might have to wait a long time! So most
likely you’ll never be able to see what I was talking about
and just have to believe those things actually exist.

More likely one of the Avon XJ Estates (after all they were
RHD at least all I know of) or Lynx Eventers would appear
over there.

Still if any Jaguar (or Daimler) has a sunroof, which is not
a tacky thing from a different period, I’d hate to see them
removed for concours purposes. I think that sums it up. :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Pekka T.–
The original message included these comments:

Our National Judging system requires a certain amount of information to be
provided with entry before judging day, that allows a certain amount of
research to be done, before the judges see the car - so they know what to
expect to see, and then on actual judging day we have an appeals provision.
So far, seems to work very well.
Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.


MKV 3.5L DHC, E-type 2+2 Ser.1 MOD, XJ6C MOD, XJ8 Executive
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from MikeWiser sent Thu 5 Feb 2009:

Um, guys, this started with Mike mentioning his car had an
accordion sunroof and German tags.
Mike, if you’re still with us, does your sunroof look
anything like the sunroofs on early VW Beetles? Could it be
of German origin? You might look for manufacturer’s tags on
the sunroof parts.–
The original message included these comments:

Thanks for the information guys. I’ll get some pictures
posted of the sunroof and German data tag in the next few
days.
BTW, the sunroof is not metal. Interior is finished in
headliner material with a chrome latching handle. Once
unlocked it slides back manually like an accordion. When


XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Straying a bit off-topic, I have seen one of the S3 E-type FHCs with a metal sunroof. This was a LHD '73 E-type in Calgary (Alberta, Canada) back in 1981. I wanted to buy that car, but couldn’t afford it back then and I haven’t seen another one with that sunroof since. Couldn’t see the inside structure of course, but the outside looked just like the other Jaguar metal sunroofs. I still want one!!

Cheers,

Dave Q.
XK150S ots
Mk2 3.8 MOD
V12 VdP----- Original Message -----
From: owner-xk-digest@jag-lovers.org (XK Digest)
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009 7:54 am

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 05:25:14 -0800
From: “ptelivuo” ptelivuo@ultirender.com
Subject: RE: [xk] XK120 FHC 679032, sunroof

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Fri 6 Feb 2009:

I have read and heard of sunroof wars in the past, like a
metal sunroof in a S2 or S3 E-type. You are right it could
be Pandora’s box, but I still feel it is wrong to say these
sunroofs are not ‘‘original’’.

Pekka,

Regarding the sunroof in question, and the documentation the owner has for
it, this is one of those situations where I’m almost positive JCNA would
allow the item as original. Proof that it was done before delivery to the
dealer at the behest of the factory would be sufficient.

OTOH, dealer installed non-listed items are not considered authentic, even
if they are installed before the buyer set foot in the showroom. The only
exception is S1, S2, S3 & XJ40 Leapers (much to my consternation) because
they are so ubiquitous. The thin justification for them is that they appear
in period catalogs, in some cases mounted on things that look like sheet
metal, but they are never listed as accessories for the car nor are they
pictured mounted on anything that could be construed as a bonnet or a car.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson Phoenix, AZ
52 XK120 S673129; 59 Mark 1; 84, 85, 86, 95 XJ6

And just to keep this still of topic, in 1975 when in England, walking
around the streets of South Kensington I spotted a superb looking V12 E-Type
roadster parked in street. Hadn’t seen too many V12 E-Types at that stage
and more interesting being a roadster which were/are far less common in UK
than 2+2 bodies.

Seeing it was summer, I did think it strange that the roadster had its
fibre-glass factory detachable hard-top in place, and thought this strange
as you would have thought the owner would have made the most of top-down
motoring in the short summer months period. But, then, I noticed, installed
in the detachable hard-top was a WEBASTO sun-roof, so figured owner really
had all bases covered!

Dave, a metal sliding sunroof in a V12 2+2 would be a major job, can’t
imagine you will see too many more - you will need to track down the Calgary
car!

My DSV8 has of course a factory original metal sliding roof - you really
cannot beat them for function and refinement compared with the relatively
unsophisticated WEBASTO, but so very complex with structural modifications
in roof that would be so very hard to do properly if not factory done, that
you can see why WEBASTO was such a popular after-market choice.

Apparently with Mark 2 Jaguars, you could order a factory option
metal-sliding sunroof, but this required a different roof-panel pressing
which other than obvious hole and structural reinforcement, also had a
slightly flatter curve to allow necessary fitment. This would have been an
even worse problem with an XK140/150 FHC let alone an XK120 FHC, so probably
explains their non-availability on XKs, despite being standard on
contemporary Mark VII, VIII and IX

Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
David Quirt
Sent: Saturday, 7 February 2009 6:19 AM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xk] XK120 FHC 679032, sunroof

Straying a bit off-topic, I have seen one of the S3 E-type FHCs with a metal
sunroof. This was a LHD '73 E-type in Calgary (Alberta, Canada) back in
1981. I wanted to buy that car, but couldn’t afford it back then and I
haven’t seen another one with that sunroof since. Couldn’t see the inside
structure of course, but the outside looked just like the other Jaguar metal
sunroofs. I still want one!!

Cheers,

Dave Q.
XK150S ots
Mk2 3.8 MOD
V12 VdP

----- Original Message -----
From: owner-xk-digest@jag-lovers.org (XK Digest)
Date: Friday, February 6, 2009 7:54 am

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 05:25:14 -0800
From: “ptelivuo” ptelivuo@ultirender.com
Subject: RE: [xk] XK120 FHC 679032, sunroof

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Fri 6 Feb 2009:

I have read and heard of sunroof wars in the past, like a
metal sunroof in a S2 or S3 E-type. You are right it could
be Pandora’s box, but I still feel it is wrong to say these
sunroofs are not ‘‘original’’.

Roger: While this is totally off-topic regarding sun roofs in an XK, you
brought up the
matter of metal sun roofs in MK2s. I happen to have two of those beasties
with factory metal sun roofs (well, one is a Daimler V8250), plus I have an
entire roof cut off of a third car.
This third one is going to be grafed on to another MK2 I am working on,
but as that car does not have a matching engine or transmission and its very
pretty dark blue is not a true Jaguar color, I am going to install a straight
port head with 420 carbs on either a 3.8 or 4.2 block, an all-syncro overdrive
trans., the rear end ratio of my choice, the front suspension from a 420, a
veneered center instrument panel from an S-type, and whatever other modifications
I deem warranted. I have two other MK2s for judging, so this will be a
display only car.
But, back to your discussion. While these are all factory roofs, and I
agree that it would have been nearly impossible to put them in after the fact,
the contours of my tops look to be the same as on other MK2s. While I am not
disagreeing with your statement regarding the curvature, as you are most
likely 100% correct, I am not agreeing with it either. When I
get really bored I will try to make a template from one of the roofs and try
to compare that to
a conventional MK2.
Otherwise, I agree with your position that the fabric sun roofs as
described in this thread were not factory items in any Jaguar – XK or sedan. But,
that said, I do not know how my JCNA affilliate, the newly re-named Gulf Coast
Jaguar Club (the Jaguar Club of New Orleans got blown away by Hurricanes
Katrina and Rita in 2005) would handle the matter if the car’s owner presented us
with documentation that the roof was installed at the time delivery was
taken of the new car at the factory.
Regards, Bob McAnelly

**************Who’s never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on
AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000003)

Bob,

Would be most interested what you discover re profile of roof with sun-roof,
and standard roof. I have never actually measured/inspected this claim
first hand, but am repeating something I seem to recall came from a
reasonable reliable source, I think some factory memo/literature. WE do
not see very many Mark 2 / Daimlers with factory (metal sliding) sunroof.

It’s a very tidy modification that works really well on Mark 2 - fitting a
straight-port head and inlet manifold/ 2x HD8/ aircleaner set up from a 420.

Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
Jagdad11@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, 7 February 2009 12:15 PM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xk] Still Off-topic - WEBASTO

Roger: While this is totally off-topic regarding sun roofs in an XK, you
brought up the
matter of metal sun roofs in MK2s. I happen to have two of those beasties
with factory metal sun roofs (well, one is a Daimler V8250), plus I have an
entire roof cut off of a third car.
This third one is going to be grafed on to another MK2 I am working on,
but as that car does not have a matching engine or transmission and its very

pretty dark blue is not a true Jaguar color, I am going to install a
straight
port head with 420 carbs on either a 3.8 or 4.2 block, an all-syncro
overdrive
trans., the rear end ratio of my choice, the front suspension from a 420, a
veneered center instrument panel from an S-type, and whatever other
modifications
I deem warranted. I have two other MK2s for judging, so this will be a
display only car.
But, back to your discussion. While these are all factory roofs, and I
agree that it would have been nearly impossible to put them in after the
fact,
the contours of my tops look to be the same as on other MK2s. While I am
not
disagreeing with your statement regarding the curvature, as you are most
likely 100% correct, I am not agreeing with it either. When I
get really bored I will try to make a template from one of the roofs and try

to compare that to
a conventional MK2.
Otherwise, I agree with your position that the fabric sun roofs as
described in this thread were not factory items in any Jaguar – XK or
sedan. But,
that said, I do not know how my JCNA affilliate, the newly re-named Gulf
Coast
Jaguar Club (the Jaguar Club of New Orleans got blown away by Hurricanes
Katrina and Rita in 2005) would handle the matter if the car’s owner
presented us
with documentation that the roof was installed at the time delivery was
taken of the new car at the factory.
Regards, Bob McAnelly

**************Who’s never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time
on
AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?ncid=emlcntusmusi0
0000003)

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Fri 6 Feb 2009:

Being a rare contributor I hope this is ‘‘on topic’’. I copied
several photos from ebay of a 150 FHC with a Webasto
sunroof. Mostly from curosity as I have seen several
pictures of 150’s with the Webasto style sunroof and
wondered how they were installed physically in a 150 with
the limited space available.
The name plate for the sunroof describes it as an after
market installation. I hope some one with detailed knowledge
can resolve this question of ‘‘Did the factory install this
type of sunroof on special order?’’.
Unfortunately I do not have the name plate data for the car
pictured.
I will post a few similar photos of another 150 FHC on ebay
with a steel sunroof. Again I do not have the nameplate data
on the car but there is at least one good detail of the
inside latch.–
The original message included these comments:

And just to keep this still of topic, in 1975 when in England, walking
around the streets of South Kensington I spotted a superb looking V12 E-Type
roadster parked in street. Hadn’t seen too many V12 E-Types at that stage
and more interesting being a roadster which were/are far less common in UK
than 2+2 bodies.
Seeing it was summer, I did think it strange that the roadster had its
fibre-glass factory detachable hard-top in place, and thought this strange
as you would have thought the owner would have made the most of top-down
motoring in the short summer months period. But, then, I noticed, installed
in the detachable hard-top was a WEBASTO sun-roof, so figured owner really
had all bases covered!


Bill-120FHC 679042-XK150FHC -MKII
Buford, GA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Another research topic I would love some concrete help on please.

Does anyone have access to an early XK140 engine, Serial Number G.1001 to
G.1907, and if so, can they check and advise if SUMP is made of PRESSED
STEEL or is it CAST ALUMINIUM. Unfortunately my extensive photo records
don’t appear to include this, and I do not have an example to check that is
readily accessible.

My research says that this first type XK140 SUMP, part no. C.7313 is steel,
as is the later Sump C.8592 fitted to all XK140s G.1908 onwards.

Service Bulletin SB.127 says C.7313 is a new steel sump for Mark VII.

The situation with XK120 SUMPS is also confusing, with the SPC listing only
two different Sumps:-

C.2359 is the original cast-alloy 16 litre capacity sump, with a hole in
side to fit the Oil Level Unit.

C.2359/1 is the revised sump with a step at rear to reduce oil capacity to
14.5 litres, but still with a hole in side for the Oil Level Unit.

During the period of use of this sump, XK120s discontinued the oil Level
Unit, so a blanking plate was screwed over to block this hole - but that
doesn’t affect the sump or its C.2359/1 part number.

However there is a third sump, as per C.2359/1 but instead of the hole in
side is now cast closed albeit still with the same raised boss in the
casting. Strictly speaking this should have warranted a C.2359/2 part
number but the SPC does not include, and Urs Schmid’s book is unusually
vague on this (sorry Urs if I have missed something), although I have had
suggested that this final/third cast-alloy XK120 sump is in fact a C.7313
that was continued on for the first XK140. I doubt this very much, BUT
thus my question:-

Can anyone confirm sump on XK140 engine G.1001 to G.1907 ???

Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.

Hi Roger,

My engine number is G 1161-8S and the sump is steel. Best regards

Urs Haehnle

S-810027

Roger Payne schrieb:> Another research topic I would love some concrete help on please.

Does anyone have access to an early XK140 engine, Serial Number G.1001 to
G.1907, and if so, can they check and advise if SUMP is made of PRESSED
STEEL or is it CAST ALUMINIUM. Unfortunately my extensive photo records
don’t appear to include this, and I do not have an example to check that is
readily accessible.

My research says that this first type XK140 SUMP, part no. C.7313 is steel,
as is the later Sump C.8592 fitted to all XK140s G.1908 onwards.

Service Bulletin SB.127 says C.7313 is a new steel sump for Mark VII.

The situation with XK120 SUMPS is also confusing, with the SPC listing only
two different Sumps:-

C.2359 is the original cast-alloy 16 litre capacity sump, with a hole in
side to fit the Oil Level Unit.

C.2359/1 is the revised sump with a step at rear to reduce oil capacity to
14.5 litres, but still with a hole in side for the Oil Level Unit.

During the period of use of this sump, XK120s discontinued the oil Level
Unit, so a blanking plate was screwed over to block this hole - but that
doesn’t affect the sump or its C.2359/1 part number.

However there is a third sump, as per C.2359/1 but instead of the hole in
side is now cast closed albeit still with the same raised boss in the
casting. Strictly speaking this should have warranted a C.2359/2 part
number but the SPC does not include, and Urs Schmid’s book is unusually
vague on this (sorry Urs if I have missed something), although I have had
suggested that this final/third cast-alloy XK120 sump is in fact a C.7313
that was continued on for the first XK140. I doubt this very much, BUT
thus my question:-

Can anyone confirm sump on XK140 engine G.1001 to G.1907 ???

Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.