[xk] XK120 Rear Number Plate Panel

XK
1

For today’s research archaeology lesson we turn to the
registration plate panel on the boot lid. There will be a
test at the end of class.

I think the only thing worse than repairing damage caused by
the Dreaded Previous Owner must be repairing damage caused
by the Damoclesian Present Owner.

Some time ago I dropped a ladder on my boot lid and made a
dent. This weekend I thought I would take the boot lid off
and see if I could bump it out.

Mine is a Nov '51 FHC originally pastel green metallic with
black in the boot. Some OCD DPO got a little crazy with his
obsession to cover all the green with red paint, and he shot
over most of the black. I wanted to see where it should be
black and where it should be body color. I was surprised to
discover the original black was all over the inside of the
wood framing, even where it was covered by the rexine panel.
But in the triangular hinge plate contact areas there was no
paint of any kind whatsoever, except a hint of green residue
as if from paint thinner on bare clean steel. So the black
was sprayed on after the bootlid was attached to the body.

The long curved side pieces of the wood framing are
laminated, I guess for strength, and probably cheaper than
steam bending.

I also found 9 lumpy aluminum weld blobs and 2 bondo worms.
The bondo worms appear to be filling holes left by some
dealer’s badge or something. Four of the welds are in a 10’’
x 20’’ pattern and most likely plugging holes left over from
a luggage rack long since removed, and one looks like a
mistake, the luggage rack installer drilled right next to
the center wood brace.

The other four welds are the subject of my question. They
are in the number panel area and in a pattern 4.25’’ x 15’’
(108mm x 381mm). The number panel is held on by 4 screws in
a 4.25’’ x 12.5’’ (108mm x 318mm) pattern.

I see in the parts catalogues there are 4 part numbers for
number panels for the steel cars and 2 different part
numbers for the alloys. I understand about USA/CDN having a
different size license plate and hole pattern than
UK/European plates. But is the mounting of the panel
different? I can see it is on alloy cars as they have screw
heads visible on the outside. What about steel cars? Why are
there alternate part numbers and what is the difference?

It appears my car was originally drilled for a different
panel. The question for the class is which one? Who welded
it and why, since the unused holes would have been covered
by the panel?–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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2

In reply to a message from Rob Reilly sent Mon 21 Apr 2014:

come back tomorrow…we are going to do door hinges ;)–
godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
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3

In reply to a message from Rob Reilly sent Mon 21 Apr 2014:

Rob

That’s interesting, when I pulled off the rexine panel on
mine only overspray on the inside and a little red oxide
primer.

It’s epoxy Black under there now though.

Can’t help you with the ‘‘Holes’’ thing, I only had 4 and no
repairs on the boot lid.

Besides if it was Sprayed black it would be wrong, needs to
be hand brushed with special english made brush. Jim will
let you borrow his ;0)–
Dan Cusick 1994 xjs 4.0L 1951 xk120 ots 2010 XF
Peru, Illinois, United States
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4

In reply to a message from Dan Cusick sent Tue 22 Apr 2014:

Dan, can you measure your bolt spacing? 12.5’’ or 15’’
Can anyone else measure their bolt spacing?

The bolt heads are marked SAE H WODEN T.

I have not been able to determine absolutely whether the
green was first and then the black, or the black first and
then the green. The black may have been brushed on around
the edges, but it was definitely sprayed over the hinges and
in the interior of the boot lid. Makes you wonder if the guy
doing the spraying didn’t know that it was destined for a
rexine panel when it got to the trim department.

I used an air nozzle on it and a lot of the red over black
flaked off in big flakes, revealing bare aluminum, no primer
here.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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5

In reply to a message from Rob Reilly sent Tue 22 Apr 2014:

My November 1953 car has 12.5 inch spacing between the bolt heads.
The bolt heads are marked AUTO R. From what I can see of the
inside of the boot lid, the aluminum skin is bare and unpainted.–
The original message included these comments:

Dan, can you measure your bolt spacing? 12.5’’ or 15’’
Can anyone else measure their bolt spacing?
The bolt heads are marked SAE H WODEN T.

–
Mike Balch
Iowa, United States
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6

Cant comment about the hole spaciong, but discussion over BOLT markings is
during an interesting/transitional period where the British Standard had
been reviewed regarding material strength and required markings as part of
the review of threads re the introduction of UNF replacing the transitional
ANF as now the preferred alternative to Whitworth.

AUTO is a brand and R is symbol for 45-55 ton steel indicative of being a
UNF thread denoted usually y having a depressed disc on the bolt head, with
branding and the R in raised lettering. So as expected for a November 1953
build car - AUTO being a common brand, albeit not as prolific as BEES.
The ANF to UNF demarcation did not exactly align with the D to R material
strength symbol, so you do occasionally find AUTO R bolts still with ANF
thread and no depressed disc indicator.

The SAE H WODEN T marked bolt - not sure who has this or build date of car -
is a WODEN brand bolt - again familiar on post-war Jaguars, but rarely
found. SAE was used by a couple of bolt manufacturers (including WODEN) to
indicate use of American thread referred to pre UNF standard as ANF, but as
there was no standard you had competing informal terminology. H T means
High Tensile, which again pre Standard meant little more than being a
controlled strength steel little more than the being better than
uncontrolled ‘black-steel’ and was approximately same as the earlier ‘D’
specification 45/55 ton mild steel. So I would expect this to be on an
earlier XK120 than 1953, but exact demarcation varied from bolt application
to bolt application. But no disc depression in head either - the required
identifier for later UNF thread.

Life is much easier with XK140 - transition from BSF and ANF to UNF was
completed - apart from some BSF/BA still remaining on bought in components
from SU, Lucas, and so forth.

Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
Mike Balch
Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2014 8:11 AM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xk] XK120 Rear Number Plate Panel

In reply to a message from Rob Reilly sent Tue 22 Apr 2014:

My November 1953 car has 12.5 inch spacing between the bolt heads.
The bolt heads are marked AUTO R. From what I can see of the
inside of the boot lid, the aluminum skin is bare and unpainted.

The original message included these comments:

Dan, can you measure your bolt spacing? 12.5’’ or 15’’
Can anyone else measure their bolt spacing?
The bolt heads are marked SAE H WODEN T.

–
Mike Balch
Iowa, United States
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7

In reply to a message from Rob Reilly sent Tue 22 Apr 2014:

Rob

I’ll get that on Thursday for you.

Mike

As far as overspray and coverage I would agree with you.
I would say the outer six inches had some overspray but
the rest was bare. The lower portion was brushed black
where the latch mechanism is.–
Dan Cusick 1994 xjs 4.0L 1951 xk120 ots 2010 XF
Peru, Illinois, United States
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8

In reply to a message from Rob Reilly sent Mon 21 Apr 2014:

Hi Rob:

For what it’s worth, my July 1st built 1953 DHC has 12.5’’ bolt
spacing on the licence plate plinth. The underside is black,
but I recall painting that area back when I re-trimmed the
boot panel with new Rexine and, sorry, cannot remember if it
was bare aluminium or not.

Regards,

Chris.–
The original message included these comments:

(108mm x 381mm). The number panel is held on by 4 screws in
a 4.25’’ x 12.5’’ (108mm x 318mm) pattern.
heads visible on the outside. What about steel cars? Why are
there alternate part numbers and what is the difference?

–
CP120
Ancaster, Ontario, Canada
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9

In reply to a message from CP120 sent Wed 23 Apr 2014:

Thanks Mike, Chris and Dan for your measurements. Dan’s is
15’’ and his car is only a few months newer than mine, so I
think we are arriving at a solution to the mystery. The two
alternative panels for each market must have had different
bolt spacings. I see Viart mentions that he is aware of this
though he does not give any details.

I had thought maybe I had originally had a panel from an
alloy, but no it seems the bolt spacing on alloys is
something like 18’’ so that’s not it.

I think what happened is this. Since my car was originally
for a French owner it had a BD.4257 panel for a Euro plate.
Then when it came to the USA somebody wanted to convert it
to take a US plate but they couldn’t find a BD.4256 so they
redrilled it for a BD.5645 panel.

Some body man was filling holes from the luggage rack so he
must have filled the old license panel holes at the same
time, at any rate the welding workmanship looks to be of
similar apprentice level quality, lumpy.

Roger, you may be interested to hear the bolts on my hinges
are AUTO D. I don’t recall seeing any other WODEN bolts
anywhere else on my car except on the jack.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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10

In reply to a message from Rob Reilly sent Thu 24 Apr 2014:

Another observation.
Clausager has a photo on page 86 in his XK120 book of a
bootlid for a steel car, and it must be an early one, for
what other reason would they have for taking a picture of it
but to show the top brass how its different from the alloy
lid. I can estimate the holes for the license panel are
spaced at about 50 percent of the known overall width of a
bootlid frame 29.5’’ so it must be 15’’.
Does anybody else have bolts at 15’’?–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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11

Hi Rob,

The holes on the boot lid of 671187, built in May of 1951 are 15 1/8" apart.

Mike Eck
New Jersey, USA

'51 XK120 OTS, '62 3.8 MK2 MOD, '72 SIII E-Type 2+2>

In reply to a message from Rob Reilly sent Thu 24 Apr 2014:

Another observation.
Clausager has a photo on page 86 in his XK120 book of a
bootlid for a steel car, and it must be an early one, for
what other reason would they have for taking a picture of it
but to show the top brass how its different from the alloy
lid. I can estimate the holes for the license panel are
spaced at about 50 percent of the known overall width of a
bootlid frame 29.5’’ so it must be 15’‘.
Does anybody else have bolts at 15’'?

XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0

12

I’m normally not “into” this level of detail, but FWIW, S/N #670207 (“born” ~ 1st week or so of April 1950, IIRC (by interpolation of serial numbers vs production dates for very early cars, but don’t hold me to it if off by a few days :wink: has width of mounting holes rear license plate plinth at 15 1/8" center to center. I believe that the presumed production date places it on the “production line”, such as it was, at the same time as the last few alloy cars, but I stand to be corrected by those more knowledgeable about these “Bureau of Vital Statistics” records :wink: Who knows, it may be one of those 120s pictured in that well known factory photo of early cars on their trollies being pushed along on rails to the next assembly station ;-), which for some reason, I find quite amusing 64 years on!

   Regards to All,
         The Jag Maven (Gary)On Apr 26, 2014, at 5:51 AM, Rob Reilly <xk120us4@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

In reply to a message from Rob Reilly sent Thu 24 Apr 2014:

Another observation.
Clausager has a photo on page 86 in his XK120 book of a
bootlid for a steel car, and it must be an early one, for
what other reason would they have for taking a picture of it
but to show the top brass how its different from the alloy
lid. I can estimate the holes for the license panel are
spaced at about 50 percent of the known overall width of a
bootlid frame 29.5’’ so it must be 15’‘.
Does anybody else have bolts at 15’'?

XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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13

In reply to a message from Gary Singer sent Sat 26 Apr 2014:

A very kind list member sent me a panel that was surplus to
his needs.
Here is a photo of both of the USA versions of this panel.

http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1399138703

In my drafting office part numbers are assigned
chronologically, sometimes in groups as part of an assembly,
and sometimes not, either on the day the drafter starts work
on the drawing or the day he finishes it.

Based on the assumption that Jaguar did the same thing, I
believe the panels with (more or less) 15.19’’ spacing are
the earlier ones, BD.4256 for a US plate and BD.4257 for a
UK/Euro plate. The panels with 12.5’’ spacing are later,
BD.5645 for US plate and BD.5644 for UK/Euro plate.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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14

In reply to a message from Rob Reilly sent Sat 3 May 2014:

Rob

Top one matches mine perfectly. I’d take it off for a
picture, but I’m not done putting it back together yet :0)
Really close, but not done!–
Dan Cusick 1994 xjs 4.0L 1951 xk120 ots 2010 XF
Peru, Illinois, United States
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15

Rob,

Great photos showing clearly the difference.

I apologise for buying into this subject belatedly so am not up-to-speed
with all the inputs so far provided, but on the face of it question one
aspect of your conclusions?

Presumably both pictured XK120 REAR NUMBER PLATE ASSEMBLY are from USA
market-new cars, so I agree are most likely BD.4256 and BD.5645 part numbers
and I agree that the change in part number seems to be an evolutionary
design change in the spacing of the Mounting Brackets.

But given the XK140 BD.9932 PANEL ASSEMBLY FOR ATTACHMENT of REAR NUMBER
PLATE has its brackets at 15" spacing doesn’t that suggest that the XK120
PANEL ASSEMBLY with 15" spacing is more likely to be the later part number
BD.5645, and the 12-1/2" spacing the earlier BD.4256 ?

As before - don’t know what correlation/input you have had on
chassis-numbers and thus dates of narrow/wider spacing.

The USA/Canada versus Rest-of-World BD.4257/ BD.5644 may presumably be to do
with the actual position of the captive-nuts on which to mount the actual
number-plate onto the panel, but would have to compare the two, but it may
be something as simple as using BSF threaded nuts on the UK Panels and ANF
nuts on the USA Panels as the spacing of number-plate holes was hardly
standardised in the 1950s, and I think UK number-plates then mostly had no
pre-punched holes provided, needing to be drilled to suit mounting.

The XK140 BD.9932 PANEL was common to all XK140 and by 1954 was now offering
UNF threaded Nuts that could slide/adjust horizontal spacing from 6" to 8"
with a fixed 5-1/4" vertical spacing, which certainly suited the 1950s
Australian Number-Plate standardised horizontal pre-punched hole spacing of
6-1/2" and the NZ standardised horizontal pre-punched hole spacing of
7-1/2", albeit the vertical spacing of 4-1/4" and 4" was not compatible, so
without drilling extra holes you could only mount by the top two screws.

USA/Canadian License-Plates were certainly not of any standardised
pre-punched hole/slot spacing in 1951 (I have a USA and Canada set of
state/province plates dated 1951) ranging from 7" to 9" horizontal spacing,
and similar vertical variation as well, so drilling extra holes was probably
the norm, but preferably in the License-Plate and not in the XK120/140
Panel.

Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xk@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of
Rob Reilly
Sent: Sunday, 4 May 2014 9:06 AM
To: xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xk] XK120 Rear Number Plate Panel

In reply to a message from Gary Singer sent Sat 26 Apr 2014:

A very kind list member sent me a panel that was surplus to
his needs.
Here is a photo of both of the USA versions of this panel.

http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1399138703

In my drafting office part numbers are assigned
chronologically, sometimes in groups as part of an assembly,
and sometimes not, either on the day the drafter starts work
on the drawing or the day he finishes it.

Based on the assumption that Jaguar did the same thing, I
believe the panels with (more or less) 15.19’’ spacing are
the earlier ones, BD.4256 for a US plate and BD.4257 for a
UK/Euro plate. The panels with 12.5’’ spacing are later,
BD.5645 for US plate and BD.5644 for UK/Euro plate.

–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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16

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Sat 3 May 2014:

The people who responded with reports of approximately 15’’
spacing have earlier cars, and the people reporting 12.5’’
have later cars. As to when the change took place, we do not
yet have enough data to make any guess about that.

Another suggestion was the idea that they were concurrent,
from two different suppliers. Again we don’t have much to go
on there, however I note that the panels are exactly the
same size and identical in every other respect except the
parts for attaching to the boot lid.

If these panels were pre-painted in large batches in all the
different colors and stockpiled near the end of the assembly
line, and if boot lids were not drilled for the attachment
screws until somewhat later in the production process,
perhaps after the destination of the car was known, it may
be that the change date is related to both color and
receiving country.

Perhaps this is why Jaguar did not record anything relating
it to body or chassis numbers.

We also have not speculated as to the reason for the change.
I can envision only one reason, that it may be related to
the curvature and flexibility of the boot lid, and it was to
improve the pull down of the panel in order to more evenly
capture the rubber beading.

In which case it seems to me unlikely to be related to 140,
on which the panel is attached not to the boot lid but to a
less flexible part of the body.

These USA versions accommodate license plates with 6’’ to 8’’
horizontal bolt spacing and 4-3/4’’ vertical. Illinois had
two sizes of plate in 1950 and both fit on these panels. All
captured nuts are 1/4-28 NF SAE thread. Eight NS.125/4D
screws are called for in the OTS & FHC parts catalogues.

I would be interested to hear about the spacing for UK/Euro
registration versions.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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