Well spoken. And there are many “errores et omissions!”.
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I sort of think that the S2 set-up is not all that different from the S3, Phillip - apart from the former use one thermal breaker and the latter two…
In both cases, the slave switches are disabled while the ‘master’ switches are operated. No slave switch action is a clue - of some kind.
I’m virtually certain that this is the common switch fault, internal or external connections - and possibly affecting more than one switch, in same or different ways…
Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
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Does the slave window operation require a NC contact in the master window switch?
Yes it does.
Aristides
Ok, got back to the rear windows. Results of rear window switch test.
Remember, the left rear is not working properly but right rear and the two front motors operate fine.
REAR WINDOW SWITCHES TEST.pdf (203.5 KB)
Additional test: SWITCH IN DOWN POSITION SHOWS POWER AT MOTOR IN GREEN WIRE AND 12V. SWITCH IN UP POSITION SHOWS POWER AT MOTOR IN RED WIRE AND 12V.
The motor will power the window down when terminals 4 & 5 are jumped but jumping terminals 2 &3 will not power the window up. Mind blowing!!!
Any ideas would be appreciated,
Thank you,
Phillip
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Remember that the rear window switches, ‘master’ and ‘slave’ operates as a team, Phillip - connections to the motor goes from one via the other…
…which means that both switches must be assessed. I ‘think’ that the slave switch is connected to the motor, while the ‘master’ powers the motor via the ‘slave’. But it may be the other way around…
Another thing; the voltage measurements are a bit puzzling. With good connections and no current flowing; you should read battery voltage and current should not flow except through the motor. This is why I advocate using a test lamp instead of a voltmeter - and use an ammeter in some measuring situations…
I also ‘think’ that the switches used on the S2 are identical to the S3 ones depicted in your original diagram. Which means that with the window switches in the ‘off’ position, there should be 12V on both motor connections - which will not turn the motor…
With the switch to ‘up’ or ‘down’ position the switch grounds one of the motor terminals alternatively. With power on one and ground on the other terminal , the motor runs up or down…
The main point here is that power itself is not enough - you also need a ground…both provided through the switch when functioning properly. When you jumpwire you are simulating some connections inside the switch - but interpreting the jump results require identification of wich switch connections goes where.
Ie, ohming a disconnected switch will tell which switch terminals are connected in which switch positions - and which what this should be based on wire connections. It’s important to identify which switch wires/terminals has straight ground - these must not!) be powered by jumping…
Example; with power on a motor terminal by a jump and the motor runs; the other terminal must be grounded - and no switch should be grounded in ‘off’. And there should be power on the motor terminal(s) without the jump - directly groundin the opposite motor terminal with power on the other should activate the motor…
I suggest you go back to your original (S3) diagram - and establish the logic of the switching. It is likely also valid for the S2 - but the wiring colours may differ. You should also access the ‘slave’ switch - to establish whether it is ‘upstream’ or ‘downstream’ of the ‘master’…
And of course; this is likely a switch rather than a wire fault, but it may also be a misconnection on the switch(es) - or in any combinations. You may also check on the right rear ‘slave’, which works OK(?) to compare the two…
It takes more time to read this than to perform these test/checks - the logic, when understood, makes tests easier to understand…
Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
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Frank,
Thank you so much for taking all this time to help me. I will do as advised and work on the “slave” / “master” relationship. It seems odd that only 3 of the 4 motors work fine and one does not. I have switched (no pun intended) the two rear switches from one to the other with no change so I have to believe that the switches themselves are ok.
I have some work to do but now I have a good plan.
Thank you again. I will strive to pay it forward.
Phillip
What I am suggesting is that you swap the two front switches and see if the problem moves with them.
Thanks for the suggestion. I swapped the four console switches three times, moving one switch at a time in a clockwise direction. No change in the left rear’s performance.
Thanks again,
Phillip
OK, I did the test on the rear motors and found that with the power on their is no power to the either of the rear motors. However, when switched, the right has power to one of the two motor terminals depending on the switch being up or down and the other terminal does not have power. On the left motor, when switched, either up or down, there is power to both terminals. Does this, then, indicate that the switch is not grounding the connection? As indicated above, I swapped the switches around and they all worked fine except in the left rear position.
I, per your instruction, studied the wiring diagram and I am unable to determine which wires, coming from the switch, are designed to provide the ground.
As a test, I manually jumped a ground wire to one of the two motor leads and, when switched, the motor worked!. (It actually worked much better than the right rear one which may be due to that motor, when tested, is only getting 10V and not 12.) For some reason, the left switch is not supplying a ground to the motor.
I feel like we’re getting close but I don’t know how best to proceed from here.
Again, thank you for taking the time to help me.
Phillip
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I hope you made notes on wire connections, Phillip…
Basically, with switches ‘off’ there should be power to both motor terminals. In ‘down’ or ‘up’ there should be power on one motor terminal, and ground on the other - and motor should run…
Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
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Are all four switches the same? Because the master switches have a NC contact that the slave switches don’t, I suspect. Of course, they’d probably just make all the switches the same and not use the NC contacts in the slaves.
Yes, I was very careful to reconnect the wires in the same positions when swapping the switches.
With power on, both left and right rear motors show power to both wires. On the right rear, when switched either up or down, I get power to only one motor wire and the other must serve as ground.
However, on the left rear, when switched either up or down, I am still getting power to both wires. As mentioned above, if I ground one of the two wires, the motor will work either up or down depending on which wire I ground. That tells me the switch is not “grounding” one of the wires. I have tried moving the wires to different positions on the switch but still have the same problem.
Thanks for your help.
Phillip
When looking at all the switches and how the contacts inside of them respond to the up or down position, they appear to all be the same.
If you have the time, could you please explain the purpose of the NC contacts? I am curious about the voltage drop of 2V to the right rear motor and wondering if that may be involved somehow.
Thank you Kirbert
That’s how the master/slave thing works, I think. The rear windows are powered through a NC contact in the front window switch. Hence, when you’re running the front windows, the rear windows won’t work. I think. Someone more familiar with the saloon windows can correct.
The wiring in these Jaguars is notoriously undersized. Going around the car with a VOM, I found several of the heavy loads running on considerably less than 12V just due to losses in the wiring. The windshield wipers were running on 7V. I ended up installing relay systems for the wipers, windows, and headlights, all of which behaved much better! My windows would zip up and down, the wipers wiped with authority, and the headlights glowed bright white rather than weak yellow.
Yes, see Aristides’s post above.
Thank you,
Phillip
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There is a subtle difference between the ‘master’ and ‘slave’ switch connections, Phillip, as Kirbert points out. And I don’t know if it is ‘permanent’ in or ‘alterable’…
The ‘master’ has a connection between #2 and #7 - which the ‘slave’ has not. Note that on the ‘slave’ these terminals is directly connected to the motor - and if a ‘master’ switch is fitted as a ‘slave’ - both motor terminals will be powered, irrespective of ‘master’ position. (If both switches are used simultaneously in this configuration - you produce a short)
‘Moving the wires different position’ is a lost cause. Only one configuration is correct; with 4 wires/connections there are 23 wrong ones - and I hope you kept tabs on the original ones…
Disconnect wires and ohm between #2 and #7 - no connection on the ‘slave’, connected together on the master. If those two are connected by an external wire; the switches are identical - removing the connecting wire converts the ‘master’ to a ‘slave’, and vice versa. If not, not - and a proper slave’ is called for!
#1 and #8 are interconnected on both, internally or externally - and to ground (black wire?)
Having identified 'master; and ‘slave’ still requires correct wire corrections; the ‘master’ is connected to the ‘slave’ - which is then connected to the motor. Malfunctions may be a switch or a connection fault…
Looking at the wiring diagram, the 'master/‘slave’ interaction is straight forward - but unfortunately I don’t have the switch wiring diagram/colours for the S2…
Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK.NZ)
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Yes indeed.
The NC contact prevents operating the window from both switches at the same time, i.e. when you open or close the window with the master switch the slave switch is deactivated.
IIRC all switches are the same and interchangeable.
I would suggest that you get a 12v power source and a ground and try to run the window from the plug at the switch.
If it does work then your problem is the power source before the switch, if it doesn’t it’s between the plug and the window.
I think this situation is starting to have an effect on me.
Oops, gotta’ run. Wall Mart is having a huge sale on straight jackets.
Phillip
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