Just to follow up the path through Classic Garage was a dead end. Stuart was a very nice individual, but in the end he couldn’t come up with all the pieces and turned me to Moss with a surcharge.
I have several queries out to other sources now and I’ll report when I have something definitive.
On my 65’ I installed a retro auto air kit. They are friendly in that company but not knowledgeable for the application. I installed their “series 2 kit”.
For the alternator I ditched the massive Lucas and went with something I found at the store. Not sure what it is but it works great. I think in one of the attached photos you can prob find a part number on it. These photos I took last year.
Also wanted to mention that Eric ‘64etype’ has been really helpful with all his photos and descriptions if you go back in the search and see his work.
that’s interesting James. I’ll have to explore your webpage too. On your alternator, you have a CCW turning alternator. Unconventional, but it looks tidy.
I agree on the massiveness of the Lucas product: huge by today’s normal.
You know, on the Classic Air folks, they took all my info, couldn’t really answer the questions live, but it’s been 4 days without an answer, so I suspect I’ll not hear from them.
And, yes to Eric’s helpfulness. So far I’ve resisted changing the duplex pulleys on the engine, but getting just one to fit the alternator is problematic it appears.
In truth, this is an easy project to accomplish. Just pay $700 and I’d be done already. But I’m not made that way.
I note you play the fiddle. Good man!
Yes that seemed to be toughest part is finding just the right belt. There is not much room to route everything and it seems like there is not much scope in which to angle the jockey pulley to allow belts to spin efficiently. Generally I found that if I can spin the pulley with my hand with the belt attached then obviously there is not enough tension.
I also have extremely small amounts of clearance between the belts and the frame rail-even with brand new engine mounts. I anticipate carrying around spare belts.
You can see I have the series 2 style dual fans and radiator it works well w the CCW set up.
Since you have not heard from Retro Air for 4 days then I think it may be safe to assume that they are hoping you already worked out your problem.
You must get it done though because there is nothing like having AC!
Tha alternator looks like a Denso …… ( or a knock off) …… the bracketry is really heavy …… not much chance of that shaking itself to bits🙂
Yes,
I sorta did it weird but I actually have 2 sensors. Both with separate relays etc just in the event one fails. Also there is an additional temp Guage I attempted to cleverly hide which is digital.
Who is the maker of that hose-mounted sensor?
Hey James…Couple of things…Is that you in the pictures, How old?
Is that a Fuel Injection set up or triple webbers in the corner?
Nice job!.
That straight shaft bracket they make was the same one I used in my series 2 , 30 years ago.
Its a trick set up plus COOL air hits the back of the alt and internal regulator so it doesnt burn out.
gtjoey1314
Hi Joey yes that’s me in photos or part of me anyways I’m in mid 30’s. Unless you mean that creepy monkey in some of the photos.
Yes have triple Weber’s. Absolutely love them. I noticed most of the internet attempted to talk me and anyone else who considers them out of them but I have absolutely NO regrets.
I will likely make more miscellaneous shrouds, and aluminum panels to clean up the engine bay and it will be a bit reminiscent of a D type with the giant air cleaner for all the carbs. Maybe some rivets here and there.
It’s just great to see the interest and your in your 30s👍🏾
That Alt will be a big improvement along with reliability
When I did that exact kit 30 years ago I think the mini gm alt like your using was out of a Buick or Pontiac
All the same but great with the interal regulator!
I believe James’ alternator is a Denso, not Delco. On my project, I been sorting alternator options for two weeks now and it has been an interesting process. I’ve been waiting on some folks to follow-up their offerings with prices and commitments. Meanwhile I’ve made some discoveries worthy of sharing.
For my car, a Sept '62 built FHC, I had no generator and no brackets. I did have duplex pulleys on the crank and the water pump. So I have to make a choice as to what to use for an alternator mount on the block. I could have started with the generator mount, but I don’t see any value in going backwards. So there are then two basic offerings available in the marketplace plus I could make my own. Bear in mind, the Series 1 3.8 engine has different stud bosses in the block than the 4.2 engines so the 4.2 alternator mount doesn’t fit a 3.8. 1) There is a “high mount” that appears similar to the 4.2 alternator mount in that it has two “ears” close together for a “fat foot” type of alternator. The alternator’s foot fits in between the “ears” on the mount. This can be purchased via several of the usuals under $100 if you search. Any size alternator case can be used with this mount as the alternator will sit high and above the frame. A GM (Delco) large case will fit. As will the single (fat) foot Denso’s and Mahles. 2) There is a “low mount” that will hold the alternator in much the same location as the generator. Hence an alternator may interfere with the frame. This type of mount is designed to fit an alternator that has two “ears” that straddle the mount. This mount is best fitted with a small-case alternator because of the frame proximity. Denso offers many choices that will work and GM does too. You just need to know what is needed before you buy. This “low mount” is offered by Wilkinson in the UK and is the basis of the original alternator kit offered by SNGB for very early 3.8 engines. The SNGB offering is ridiculously expensive and I am still waiting for new pricing from Wilkinson.
NOTE: By using spacers and even whittling on the alternator case, much inventiveness can be used to fit either type of alternator onto either type of mount.
If one plans to add an A/C system, the mount choice will dictate whether the A/C compressor goes above or below the alternator. So bear that in mind.
Alternator pulleys are a press fit. They are not keyed. The 4.2 engines use a single groove pulley configuration whereas the 3.8 engines use the duplex pulleys. In my case, I have to either swap out the crank and water pump duplex pulleys (about $100 each) or place a duplex pulley on the alternator. If using a single pulley, those will likely come with the alternator. By the way, the drive ratio between the crank damper pulley and the alternator is about 2:1 to 2.8:1. It is not super critical as the alternator are rated a 12,000 rpm and it is not likely the engine will see 6,000 rpm for very long. The question is raised what is the inner diameter of an alternator’s pulley. Delco and Denso appear to have 17mm shafts whereas Lucas seems to use 19mm. A high quality duplex alternator pulley is available from Team CJ for under $100.
For my money’s worth, I most likely will go with a high mount made for the 3.8 engine. I’ll stick with my duplex belt configuration because it is cheaper to buy one alternator pulley than it is to buy two single groove engine pulleys. I’ll discuss my findings on the alternator rating later but suffice it to say that I’ll purchase an alternator that produces 100± amps.
Scot, I will just comment on the need for a 100 amp alternator. I have a series II with A/C that when new 60 amp alternator could not keep up in stop and go traffic. My father’s E had the same problem. A couple of years ago I switched to a “Lucas Elektric” 55 amp unit with a built-in regulator and have had no discharge since. I guess all amps are not created equal?
Glenn
There are tiny metric amps, and great big ol’ Murkin amps.
Hi Glenn, @Heuer has a good grasp of the alternator performance ratings on E-type UK. I was worried about over specifying the alternator output at first, but I no longer consider that a concern. Rather, I now consider a 70 amp choice as the minimal especially when considering the price does not varying much by output. I.e., you can buy a 70 amp alternator for $65 to $130 and you can buy a 110 amp alternator for the same dollars. And it is not just the alternator that counts, but the regulator as well. I’ve got a quote coming from WOSP for an 80amp kit that would be a good choice…depending on their price. I also have spec’d out my own kit with the following prices:
Mounting Bracket (high) $77.85
Duplex Pulley, alternator 90.00
100 am 12si new alter. 114.00
Adjusting Bracket 18.00
Total $298.44
That is my target price to beat for my needs.
And don’t ferget them Whitworth dudes
100amp sounds reasonable w AC. I only have limited experience of course but I can only say from my observation that amperage does not mean it’s putting out that much all the time, naturally. It may only develop 60amps at idle. If you plan on having a couple fans on w/ AC like me, and even an onboard GPS, and even fancy mood lighting or whatever, I think 100amp alternator works well.
Mine is a Denso unit. It works good however I still feel like I’m maxing it out and may get higher amperage unit in future. It’s a 55amp unit from what I just discovered, intended for Suzuki cars or trucks.
Plus of course if you plan on plugging in your phone etc you just want a capable unit.
Alternator output increases with RPM. The quoted output is the asymptotic limit, probabably @5000 alternator RPM or thereabouts. At idle, it will be much less. This is a chart prepared by Lucas during development of the alternator product in the late 50’s. It will give you an idea of how these systems perform:
As you can see, the alternator performs better than the generator in almost every condition. Most importantly, it produces more output at idle.
The S2 w/AC alternator was actually smaller that the w/o AC alternator, maybe due to the space limitations of the reverse mount. So not 60 A, but 45. This didn’t change until they revised the bracketry in late '69. Most of the mini alternators have omnidirectional fans, so good candidates for reverse mounting, except they look out of place.
A stock S1 E-Type with everything switched on (full beams, side lights, wipers, radio, cooling fan, ignition, heater blower) draws 39Amps. The wiring (brown wire) from alternator to battery/ammeter is rated at 50A.
When choosing an alternator you need to carefully read the specifications as they are rated for both ‘hot’ and ‘cold’ outputs. So 70A hot could be 90A cold (start up), both of which are way beyond the wiring rating. Obviously the alternator will only output what is demanded so a 100A hot/130A cold unit will probably only ever be required to deliver a fraction of that so the wiring is safe; unless there is a battery fault or other condition which calls on the full 100A which could cause damage.
I use a Nippondenso 45A. It is small, lightweight and constantly keeps the battery fully charged regardless of what is being powered. If you want to fit a high output alternator then disconnect the two thick brown wires going to the ammeter and replace it with a voltmeter. Increase the size of the cable going from the alternator to the connection post/solenoid and battery to match the output. This keeps the high amperage current out of the car interior and prevents a possible fire.
All good ideas. I’m inclined to go with a bank of relays sitting where the regulator resided. A la @64etype (Eric) who followed in the footsteps of Bob Skelly. I believe your discussions on E-typeUK also played off of Skelly’s work.
David, have you had any experience with Mike Wilkinson’s alternator conversion mounts for Series 1 cars?
