Being Cautious.....not started in 39 years

XK-Engine
42

Hello Tony,

So, you are from Australia. I’ve never been there. I know it is beautiful, possibly one day I’ll get there.

A couple of questions: Will you advise me as to what a valve train is? I would not know how to pump out whatever I flood the valves with; will you kindly advise? With your tool for the water pump, am I to assume that what goes through the unthreaded holes would the bolts coming out of the water pump? And, that they would be screwed back into the water pump? Then screw the middle bolt in toward the pump so that the pully will be drawn away from the engine…yes?

I appreciate your help. I just wish there was a chemical that I could use in the crankcase to possibly dissolve whatever is caked up inside the plugs you mention. As for my vehicle, it is a 69 Jaguar, XKE Roadster.

Please advise…have a great day.

James Joseph

awg
tony

    May 10

alt haditall:
Is there a solution I can use to dissolve was may be present? You had mentioned “Plugs” in the crankshaft. I’m not really sure what that would consist of. I wouldn’t think it would be the same substance that would be in the water system. I’m thinking sludge…perhaps? Also, Tony, your tool for the pully, are the holds threaded? And, I am thinking that the center hole would be threaded to receive the nut you mentioned. I’m not sure what side of the plate the nut would go one…I’m thinking the side closest to the pump. Perhaps both sides? One on the outside to stableize the bolt. Speaking of bolts, what size bolts did you use?

from Ozstralia maaate! :grinning: (see the little flags…put in your country on profile, displays yr national flag)

the crankshaft sludge is a build up of oil sludge & grit that can become solidified, and occurs on all these motors, the crankshaft has about 6 large threaded plugs, which need a machine shop to remove, clean out the inside crankshaft, fit new plugs.

if these are blocked up with sludge, it can take out a bearing

advise you to check about this by searching in the top corner where the magnifying glass is !

at the end of the day, if something goes wrong, you will need an engine rebuild.

If you take it apart now, you will probably still be needing a rebuild,
so looking at it that way, you dont have much risk on the downside by having a try.

…its just that “best practice” thing…

the WP plate has 4 unthreaded holes matching the threaded ones in the pulley
the middle hole has a nut welded on, I just screw the bolt in, or use some washers, and it will press the pulley off the shaft from the outside.

I make one for any vehicle that has threaded holes, method in the FSM likely distort the pulley

I would also flood the valve train with oil, (valves can be stuck), and pre-oil the oil galleries with a pump, drain off all the excess b4 rotating engine

imo the E-type list will be good for you (if you have an E-type?)
You should introduce yourself on that list, if you havent already

43

I keep several gallons of a cleaning cocktail I use on engines like the type you have. ( long storage) it’s 2/3 diesel , 1/3 mix of atf, marvel mystery oil. You could run an engine on it , but I wouldn’t advise it.
If your engine is free, and your cylinders are not pitted, a couple gallons run through your oiling system with starter only, for a minute or two at a time several times and plugs out, will clear sludge, varnish, and all manner of accumulated crap from inside your engine. It’s thin enough that it won’t suspend much, and lower your risk of circulating contaminants. There are purists that will scowl at this kind of work, but I have done it for decades in engines, and gearboxes to give them a good rinse with no I’ll effect. Drain it all out toss the filter, then run oil. Also before you turn it over I would wipe some Gibbs break in grease on the cam lobes. I wouldn’t use a heavy oil in your bores. I would use Wd 40, or marvel mystery oil. Best of luck to you, the engine I’m working on sat for at least twenty years. Holds 50# oil pressure hot idle, and compression is in the 170,s.

44

well here is where opinions diverge.
I would not attempt any oil dissolving or cleaning mix, (except down the bore) just new oil

As you seem to be of the mind to start it, the valve train aspect I was referring to is the tendency of overhead valves to stick open in the guides, colliding with piston upon engine rotation

one way to check would be remove cam covers, and measure each tappet clearance as engine is carefully rotated, stop if the slightest resistance is felt, with plugs out

do a compression test (rings stuck or bad bores)

make sure fuel system works

start the b@$t@rd

if you hear a rod knock, stop

the WP tool goes in the threaded holes, or over studs, I cant remember,
its easy to make, “pulls” the pulley off from the outside

you will get more responses on the E-type forum

45

To be clear, I am not " recommending" you use a solvent cocktail through your engine. You asked if there was one. I do use it, as do many others. It’s an old idea, not mine. I learned from a mechanic as a kid.
I’m going to guess in reality, regardless if the condition of bearings, rings, cylinder walls, that your front seal, cam o rings, and various other rubber components are going to be hard as wood. And will likely leak profusely. Not that big of a deal to fix, but likely.

46

My concern would be the solvent frees up any accumulated sludge in the crank sludge traps and that sludge decides to attack the main bearings.

47

Yes, a solvent cleaning is not without some potential peril, and needs to be conducted mindfully. That’s why I didn’t want to be understood to be " recommending" it. In my experience, it works fairly slowly, and puts said sludge in the filter, not the bearings. I even had to change filters once mid process on a 41 ferguson. The main benefit is to clear the galleries of jelled petrolium, and to splash copious amounts into the piston bottoms to release the rings, and to clear the oiler. It’s quite effective, and inexpensive.

48

From memory so correct me if I’m wrong. Oil enters the crank, passes by the sludge traps and exits to oil the main bearings. So oil or solvent carrying debris from the sludge traps has to first go to the mains, before going to the filter.

49

John, are you referencing the plugged crank galley through drillings? I am no Jaguar expert. I have built just one. If there is some special traps, I’m not aware of it. Does the XK crank have a proprietary oiler?The solvent is to remove the sludge of course, but as I said it works fairly slowly.
This reminds me if the controversy back in the sixties, with introduction of detergent oils, and the claims that engines were ruined by the loss of all the built up shellacs, resins etc in the bearings etc.

So I guess to your point, whatever evil lies in those gallies would have to transit the shells once. I’m not sure whatever could get in there is much more than coagulated oil. I forget, are these shells grooved?

50

Hello Karl,

Thank you so much for your input and information regarding the advice I have been seeking to try and avoid any real problems trying to start my 69 Jaguar. I am taking my time and will approach trying to just see if I can at least turn the crank shaft manually. I’m am going to try to turn it by hand tomorrow. I have been aggressively taking apart and cleaning most everything that I think I should, and have been advised to, prior to trying to turn the crank.

I just hope it goes well…I do not want to create any damage. I have a great deal of work to do before I try to actually start it. I need to change all of the coolant and gasoline hoses. Filters, gaskets, rear end and transmission fluids, etc. I really appreciate all of the suggesting and advice that has been given so graciously by so many members.

I am learning !!! Please don’t give up on me.

Have a great weekend,

JJ Knight

51

Here are a couple of pictures of my main bearings and the crank journal after the sludge traps vomited some of it’s contents into the lubricating oil going to the bearings. Now when this happened I had recently reinstalled the head I had professionally rebuilt and was using the car more than it had probably been used in the past 20 years. When the engine was torn down the traps were full to the plugs (see third picture). The experience made me probably overly cautious of doing anything that might cause contamination of the oil.

Fortunately everything cleaned up nicely, the crank was salvageable.

Main
Main480×640 106 KB

Crank
Crank480×640 84.7 KB

plug
plug480×640 102 KB

52

I’m guessing your " traps" we’re full of Babbitt!! That looks like metal galling to me. Momentary oil starving? Certainly don’t blame you for being jumpy though!

53

I’ve already said this but really want to repeat it. The path you are on is ill-conceived.

I would (and have, so my $ is where my mouth is) make a fresh start. Not just so that your ‘great deal of work’ is not a waste and needs re-doing but also to minimize the long term costs by ensuring that what can be salvaged is not lost.

My car was parked in 1980 (so same timespan). It was in running condition when parked. it is now in restoration. The engine lower end is going to the machine shop as I write this. The head will be done at the restoration shop. When complete, the clock will be reset and a like-new engine will be refitted into a like (well better than, really) - new car.

Yes, this is a big investment but none of that investment will be wasted and none will be repeatedly re-visited as ‘small’ things lead to big fixes.

Doing it right and completely strikes me as a smaller money pit that doing it over and over.

mike

2 Likes
54

Hello, I want to thank to everyone who responded to my call for information and advice regarding my approach to trying to start, for the first time in thirty-nine years, my 69 Roadster. Just to name a few, Mike, Tony, Karl, I’m sorry if I missed anyone. However, I’m sure I’ll need help in the very near future.

It just so happens that I did try to rotate the engine yesterday. Unfortunately (or not) I could not get it to turn over by hand. The alternator and water pump would not turn also. However, I did get the alternator to rotate freely after I used some WD-40. Spins like crazy now. Not so for the water pump. I want to remove it to see exactly what has resulted in the coolant system…figured I’d start there. Perhaps that will break free in time. Although I’d like to be able to remove it. I may just replace it. Getting back to turning over the engine by hand. I’m not so sure it is an internal problem with the rings, etc. I had a feeling that the transmission may be in gear…not sure. I did jack the rear off the ground and tried to spin the rear wheels. They would not budge. In an effort to make sure it was in neutral I tried to disengage the clutch. I had immediately had resistance. I heard a snap and now the clutch pedal move very loosely free. My guess would be that perhaps the spring broke when I applied the pressure. Perhaps the spring was rusted…not sure. I have no idea how to proceed from this point regarding turning the motor over. I am ordering a new master and slave cylinder.

It may be for the best that the engine would not rotate. I’m having fur working on it. I truly enjoy working on it. Just wish I had more time to frolic with it. I’ll take any help I can get regarding advice and ideas.

Again, I want to thank everyone who gave me ideas and sent me information. I hope you all enjoyed the weekend.

Sincerely,

JJ Knight

mikemilton
Patron

    May 11

alt haditall:
I do not want to create any damage. I have a great deal of work to do before I try to actually start it

I’ve already said this but really want to repeat it. The path you are on is ill-conceived.

I would (and have, so my $ is where my mouth is) make a fresh start. Not just so that your ‘great deal of work’ is not a waste and needs re-doing but also to minimize the long term costs by ensuring that what can be salvaged is not lost.

My car was parked in 1980 (so same timespan). It was in running condition when parked. it is now in restoration. The engine lower end is going to the machine shop as I write this. The head will be done at the restoration shop. When complete, the clock will be reset and a like-new engine will be refitted into a like (well better than, really) - new car.

Yes, this is a big investment but none of that investment will be wasted and none will be repeatedly re-visited as ‘small’ things lead to big fixes.

Doing it right and completely strikes me as a smaller money pit that doing it over and over.

mike

55

What kind of environment was the car stowed in all these years? What state are you in? If it was out of doors, or in an unheated space , or wet climate, it would be a very long shot to get it to run without damaging it. A frozen alternator, frozen water pump, and a rusted up brakes do not bode well for your current plan. I spent about a year and a half now doing a frames off nut and bolt rebuild. My car was stored mildly wrecked for thirty some years , but was stored dry warm, and was from California. It’s been a lot of fun. A fascinating design. It might be time to reassess your plan.

56

You have a hydraulically operated clutch, so the chances of it working after that long are remote. You also have limited slip differential, so you can’t turn just one rear wheel to see if you are in neutral. But you should be able to shift into neutral if both the wheels roll at all.

57

Hi Karl,

The vehicle was stored in my basement (in one piece). From my garage I have double glass doors that open, allowing me to be able to store many good size objects. My late wife and I designed the house to our liking. Like most basements, there is a bit of dampness. I have no idea about what the crankshaft looks like at the moment, however, I did remove the valve covers and the cam and valve tappets look like they were new as of yesterday. Not one bit of tarnish or rust. You know, you look at some of these vehicles that have been out in a field for 20 to 30 years and they show someone walking up to one with a wrench and they turnover instantly. How do you figure. I am just wondering If I can restore what I need to without removing the motor. I know I have a huge project ahead of me. As for the future, I’ll welcome all comments and advice. I can certainly use it. Although, I’m not going to give up just yet. And I do want to do what is best; I know what it is. I just don’t know where to start.

Thanks again,

JJ Knight

58

OK, well that is encouraging that the valve train is clean. It’s not likely the crank would be rusted, it’s more that the cylinder walls are somewhat open to the environment through open valves from intake and exhaust. They are where even light rust will grab the pistons and the sieze up usually happens. If I were you I would invest in a cheap remote camera. They are less than 100$ at harbor freight or Lowe’s. Go down the spark plug holes and see what you have. That will really answer a lot of questions, and set you in a good direction.

59

Someone has already suggested what is best: you seem resistant to doing it.

Let us know how it turns out.

60

It’s probably a good time to take that to a shop and have them check it for function.

For the clutch. Do you have a helper who can sit in the driver’s seat and work the clutch pedal while you look under the right side of the car and see if the slave cyl. is working?

Sometimes you can move the gear lever to neutral without using the clutch.

61

Hello Paul,

Thank you for tuning in on my situation. I think this is a great site to a part of. From what I been listing to, there seems to be a lot of help and knowledge about Jaguars out there. I’m not being resistant, I just find it hard to believe what needs to be done to bring it back to what it was when it was last driven.

So that I may learn better, what would your approach be at this very moment?

JJ Knight

Wiggles
Paul Wigton
Regular

    May 13

alt haditall:
And I do want to do what is best; I know what it is. I just don’t know where to start.

Someone has already suggested what is best: you seem resistant to doing it.

Let us know how it turns out.