So the last thing I need to do before I put my engine and trans back together is work on the clutch.
Interestingly, I have a 10" clutch ( Laycock Sheffield ) on my '65 XKE OTS, built March 5, 1965. As is typical of Jaguar, they used up all their existing stock of many parts even after model changes. Series 1 cars received many upgrades for 1965…including the fitting of a 9.5" clutch. But not on mine…it has the original one used on the non-synchro Moss box. I have the fully synchro box in mine. Worked fine.
Not a problem in itself, as I was able to get a 10" Driven Plate that would fit my existing Clutch Cover Assembly. The problem arose when I inspected the Diaphragm Spring and discovered an open crack. Obviously, reinstalling the unit with that is not an option.
SO… do I try and find a replacement Diaphragm Spring and Retainer Ring and have a pro install it in the original Clutch Cover Assembly ? NOTE: I have had no luck yet in getting those parts, new or used. Has anyone done this ?
OR…Do I order a 9.5" Clutch Cover Assembly and Driven Plate from one of the various Jag suppliers? (Note: I have read that most XKE Flywheels of this period were drilled for both the 10" and 9.5" clutch. Mine appears to have those extra holes, allbeit smaller in diameter) 6 holes for the 10"… only 5 and of a smaller diameter for the 9.5" on my Flywheel.
ADDITIONAL PROBLEM:
My Flywheel has two dowels in it that fit the 10" unit, not the 9.5" ones that I have seen (like Borg & Beck). What happens to these ? I believe the 9.5 Assembly will not use / fit on these 180 degree opposed dowels. Does anyone make an assembly that uses these dowels in a 9.5" unit ?
Apparently, the major Jaguar suppliers I use do not carry the 10" Clutch Assembly anymore…and if a 9.5" won’t fit on my Flywheel, do I need to get a new Flywheel that WILL accept a 9.5" ? And if so, it seems it will have to be Aluminum. Which I don’t want to use…and is not cheap, either.
And, since no matter what I do now (meaning I’m not just replacing the worn Driven Plate anymore), do I have to have any new unit balanced, as the old unit was, before fitting to the Flywheel ?
With respect to the dowel issue…a machine shop should be of use here…they can drill two dowel holes for the new cover. Sounds like most listers like the smaller clutches…I have the 3-finger, old style in my 140…quite stiff.
There are plenty of 10" out there to buy. It’s what fits on a 3.8. I’m sure you can find one if that is your desire. I’ll say that the diaphragm is a lot easier on the knees.
I bought a Borg and beck (I think) 10" kit last year and it works perfectly. I have no issues with the weight of the pedal, though some say it’s stiff.
This thread may benefit from a little clarification (or confusion if I get it wrong ) concerning the clutches fitted to E-Types.
The first 3.8L E-Types were fitted with a 10" Borg&Beck Coil Spring Clutch Pressure Plate
In Feb 1964 (i.e. still 3.8L cars), production switched to a 10" Laycock Diaphragm Spring Clutch Pressure Plate
The 10" Laycock Diaphragm Clutch continued well into the 4.2L cars
In June 1967 production switched to a 9-1/2" Borg&Beck Diaphragm Spring Clutch Pressure Plate.
So, the original poster’s 10" Laycock Diaphragm Spring clutch was standard fitment to his March 1965 car. Nothing odd about it at all. The 9.5" clutched weren’t introduced for 2 more years.
The 10" Laycock Diaphragm clutch is no longer available. Both the Borg&Beck 10" Coil Spring Clutch and the Borg&Beck 9-1/2" Diaphragm Spring Clutches are available. Using the term Borg&Beck to identify a clutch is ambiguous, as both available types were originally manufactured by them.
If you need to replace a Laycock 10" Diaphragm Spring clutch, you will need to replace all components (Pressure plate, Driven Plate and Throw-out Bearing) with a matching set. You can choose the 10" Coil Spring Type, or 9-1/2" Diaphragm Spring type. I’ve heard that some flywheels are drilled for both types, but I don’t know for which model years this applies.
Hope this helps. If someone knows better, please correct me.
Thanks to all for your info / insight. I was able to locate a B&B 10"assembly (including proper throw-out bearing) that will fit my flywheel and accommodate the dowel pins.
Happy Motoring !
Harold
OK…still a problem. Ordered new 3 piece B&B 10" clutch. Clutch housing has right bolt pattern…wrong dowel pattern. Or dowel holes match dowels…and then bolt holes don’t line up.
Welsh had never heard of this problem before…and has sold many replacement 10" clutches that worked with existing flywheels and the old Laycock Sheffield clutch. I sent them pix of old, new housings and my flywheel to demonstrate my problem.
Really don’t want to shave off the dowels…as I’m convinced they are there for a reason.
I agree that the dowels probably have utility. If you screw in the six bolts in lightly can it move at all? The main dowel benefit is that they centralize the clutch. If the holes are perfect and it can’t budge then maybe it’s good enough. But if if can, then I’d be concerned about balance. Are they in totally different locations or just slightly out?
I’m still not sure why you went with the spring clutch. If my 64 wheel was double drilled I’d have installed the diaphragm for sure.
Looks to me like the dowel pins are in the incorrect holes for the pressure plate. Your photo of the flywheel played with my brain for a while, probably due to the choice of lens, but i think I get it now. The 2 dowels for the 10" B&B Coil spring pressure plate are 1/2 way between a pair of adjacent mounting holes, oriented 180 degrees apart. I see what appears to be such holes on your flywheel, but your dowels are located in holes only about 1" from 2 of the mounting holes.
Correct. I can’t even loosely fit the bolts, as the metal of the clutch housing is folded where the dowel pins hit it…so even drilling new dowel pin holes in the new housing would seem problematic.
Can’t you just move the dowel pins in your flywheel to the appropriate positions for the new pressure plate? Are they they wrong diameter? Don’t the dowel pin holes in the pressure plate line up with the two holes in the flywheel (1/2 way between 2 of the bolt holes)?
Well…now that’s an excellent question. Do the dowels come out easily ? Are they a force fit ? I have been reluctant to take a pliers/other to them. Would love to know if others have been able to / know about doing this ???
I just lined up the bolt holes of the new housing and the flywheel…and lo and behold…the smaller diameter dowel pins will fit the smaller diameter holes in the new clutch housing, if I move the pins.
So the question becomes: how easy is it to move the pins / get them out of their current holes ???
Some penetrating oil and then vice grips. Jiggle back and forth trying to not let them slip. They might get a little galled but should still be usable.
Sometimes these dowels are stuck pretty hard in there. A dowel pin removal tool/puller is the “proper” instrument for the task, which will get it out without significant damage to the dowel. There are a couple of types of puller. One is screw based, and one is a slide hammer. Both grip the dowel with a collet of the appropriate diameter. I confess that last time I needed to do this I just took the flywheel to my friendly flywheel resurfacing shop, and he popped them out in a minute or so as a favor. You may have luck with vice grips, but expect to need to replace the dowels in that case.
) concerning the clutches fitted to E-Types.
