[concours] A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Concours
1

I have enjoyed participating in JCNA Concours events for
more than ten years. However, in recent years I have begun
to question whether all Jaguars participating in Concours
events across the six regions are held to the same strict
JCNA judging standards. Other Concours participants with
whom I have spoken have voiced the same question. In order
to satisfy my own curiosity, I decided to take a closer look
at Concours event scoring. This lead me to conduct a
detailed review of Concours event scoring for the entire
JCNA 2011 Concours season.

The purpose of this review was to determine the percentage
of perfect scores awarded at each Concours event during the
2011 Concours season, both by Club and by Region. First, the
number of cars judged was established for each event.
Second, the number of perfect scores was tallied in the
Champion, Driven, and Special Classes. Third, the percentage
of perfect scores awarded was determined based on the number
of cars judged. In addition, a percentage comparison was
made of the perfect scores awarded in each of the six
regions participating in 2011 JCNA Concours events. Finally,
the number of perfect scores per event for each region was
calculated. Statistical data is available upon request.

As a result of this review, the following information was
ascertained:
�1,380 cars were judged across the six regions of the JCNA
during the 2011 Concours season.
�136 perfect scores were awarded in the Champion, Driven,
and Special Classes.
�10% of the cars judged received perfect scores. Using this
percentage as a benchmark, a comparison was made between the
perfect scores awarded in each region and the percentage of
perfect scores awarded for the year across the six JCNA
regions, the aforementioned benchmark percentage.
�The highest
percentage of perfect scores awarded was in the South
Central Region with 19%. Second was the Southwest Region
with 12%. Third was the North Central Region with 9%. There
was a tie for fourth between the South East and North East
Regions with 8%. Fifth, and the lowest percentage of perfect
scores awarded, was in the North West Region with 3%.
�The highest number of perfect scores awarded per event was
also in the South Central Region with 5.1. There was a tie
for second between the South West and North Central Regions
with 2.9. Third was the North East Region with 2.3. Fourth
was the South East Region with 2.1, and last was the North
West Region with 1.0.

The above information raises several interesting
questions.(To be continued.)–
Dave Maupin, 1976 XJ 5.3C
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

2

Dave,

There are externalities involved which may naturally skew the scores.
Remember that correlation does not imply causation. One thing from which we
benefit from in the Southwest, and to a certain extent in South Central is
wonderful weather. Flexible stuff dries out, but everything else hardly
deteriorates. There’s also the possibility that there are a number of
excellent cars in an area. California has long been a Mecca for automobile
lovers. Standards of restoration may be slightly higher there. I remember
the first car to receive a perfect score at the JCCA concours was a Mark 2
from CA. Not only was the car a trailer queen, but the wheels barely touched
terra firma. The owner had made tire booties. He drove the car to the
concours spot, pulled the booties off the tires and rolled the Jag the last
foot off the booties. We viewed the procedure with a mixture of mirth and
admiration. I know another California entrant with a more modern four-door
Jag who has two sets of wheels, tires, and front seats. He puts the perfect
set in for concours. I had one club tell me that they judged more cars than
indicated on the JCNA site, but that they didn’t register the scores for
their club members who were only showing at their concours. They were in the
SC region.

While a strict statistical analysis may be indicative, you have to take into
account all these external factors. IMO, the only way to do that is to
follow car from concours to concours and compare their scores. Then you
would have to factor in any improvements made by the entrant. Usually what
happens among the true competitors is that when a non-authentic item is
found, they fix it before the next show. So it’s really a moving target.

Probably, the most accurate analysis would involve reviewing the scoresheets
from concours to concours and comparing deductions, especially
non-authenticity ones. If you discovered a pattern where a club or clubs
cars handed out a higher percentage of perfect scores, then at a subsequent
concours, they received one or more authenticity deductions, that would be a
much stronger indication that the judges at the earlier concours were not as
familiar, not as well trained or not as sharp eyed as the later judges.

That said, I don’t disagree that judging disparities exist in JCNA. To that
end, I don’t think it would be a bad idea for JCNA to receive a copy of
scoresheets from the local clubs, for review. If they found a pattern where
a club was giving consistently higher scores than a subsequent club, it
might be ground for a review of their judge training and testing.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson Phoenix, AZ
52 XK120 S673129; 59 Mark 1; 84, 85, 86, 95 XJ6-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of Coudamau
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 10:56 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

I have enjoyed participating in JCNA Concours events for more than ten
years. However, in recent years I have begun to question whether all Jaguars
participating in Concours events across the six regions are held to the same
strict JCNA judging standards. Other Concours participants with whom I have
spoken have voiced the same question. In order to satisfy my own curiosity,
I decided to take a closer look at Concours event scoring. This lead me to
conduct a detailed review of Concours event scoring for the entire JCNA 2011
Concours season.

The purpose of this review was to determine the percentage of perfect scores
awarded at each Concours event during the
2011 Concours season, both by Club and by Region. First, the number of cars
judged was established for each event.
Second, the number of perfect scores was tallied in the Champion, Driven,
and Special Classes. Third, the percentage of perfect scores awarded was
determined based on the number of cars judged. In addition, a percentage
comparison was made of the perfect scores awarded in each of the six regions
participating in 2011 JCNA Concours events. Finally, the number of perfect
scores per event for each region was calculated. Statistical data is
available upon request.

As a result of this review, the following information was
ascertained:
.1,380 cars were judged across the six regions of the JCNA during the 2011
Concours season.
.136 perfect scores were awarded in the Champion, Driven,
and Special Classes.
.10% of the cars judged received perfect scores. Using this percentage as a
benchmark, a comparison was made between the perfect scores awarded in each
region and the percentage of perfect scores awarded for the year across the
six JCNA
regions, the aforementioned benchmark percentage.
.The highest percentage of perfect
scores awarded was in the South Central Region with 19%. Second was the
Southwest Region with 12%. Third was the North Central Region with 9%. There
was a tie for fourth between the South East and North East Regions with 8%.
Fifth, and the lowest percentage of perfect scores awarded, was in the North
West Region with 3%.
.The highest number of perfect scores awarded per event was also in the
South Central Region with 5.1. There was a tie for second between the South
West and North Central Regions with 2.9. Third was the North East Region
with 2.3. Fourth was the South East Region with 2.1, and last was the North
West Region with 1.0.

The above information raises several interesting questions.(To be
continued.)

Dave Maupin, 1976 XJ 5.3C
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

3

…Yeah, I’m still looking for that guy that beat me out in my class for
first a few years back… damned Texans! (BIG SMILE) :)----- Original Message -----
From: “Mark Stephenson” mark@jag-lovers.org
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: [concours] A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Dave,

There are externalities involved which may naturally skew the scores.
Remember that correlation does not imply causation. One thing from which
we
benefit from in the Southwest, and to a certain extent in South Central is
wonderful weather. Flexible stuff dries out, but everything else hardly
deteriorates. There’s also the possibility that there are a number of
excellent cars in an area. California has long been a Mecca for automobile
lovers. Standards of restoration may be slightly higher there. I remember
the first car to receive a perfect score at the JCCA concours was a Mark 2
from CA. Not only was the car a trailer queen, but the wheels barely
touched
terra firma. The owner had made tire booties. He drove the car to the
concours spot, pulled the booties off the tires and rolled the Jag the
last
foot off the booties. We viewed the procedure with a mixture of mirth and
admiration. I know another California entrant with a more modern four-door
Jag who has two sets of wheels, tires, and front seats. He puts the
perfect
set in for concours. I had one club tell me that they judged more cars
than
indicated on the JCNA site, but that they didn’t register the scores for
their club members who were only showing at their concours. They were in
the
SC region.

While a strict statistical analysis may be indicative, you have to take
into
account all these external factors. IMO, the only way to do that is to
follow car from concours to concours and compare their scores. Then you
would have to factor in any improvements made by the entrant. Usually what
happens among the true competitors is that when a non-authentic item is
found, they fix it before the next show. So it’s really a moving target.

Probably, the most accurate analysis would involve reviewing the
scoresheets
from concours to concours and comparing deductions, especially
non-authenticity ones. If you discovered a pattern where a club or clubs
cars handed out a higher percentage of perfect scores, then at a
subsequent
concours, they received one or more authenticity deductions, that would be
a
much stronger indication that the judges at the earlier concours were not
as
familiar, not as well trained or not as sharp eyed as the later judges.

That said, I don’t disagree that judging disparities exist in JCNA. To
that
end, I don’t think it would be a bad idea for JCNA to receive a copy of
scoresheets from the local clubs, for review. If they found a pattern
where
a club was giving consistently higher scores than a subsequent club, it
might be ground for a review of their judge training and testing.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson Phoenix, AZ
52 XK120 S673129; 59 Mark 1; 84, 85, 86, 95 XJ6

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of Coudamau
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 10:56 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

I have enjoyed participating in JCNA Concours events for more than ten
years. However, in recent years I have begun to question whether all
Jaguars
participating in Concours events across the six regions are held to the
same
strict JCNA judging standards. Other Concours participants with whom I
have
spoken have voiced the same question. In order to satisfy my own
curiosity,
I decided to take a closer look at Concours event scoring. This lead me to
conduct a detailed review of Concours event scoring for the entire JCNA
2011
Concours season.

The purpose of this review was to determine the percentage of perfect
scores
awarded at each Concours event during the
2011 Concours season, both by Club and by Region. First, the number of
cars
judged was established for each event.
Second, the number of perfect scores was tallied in the Champion, Driven,
and Special Classes. Third, the percentage of perfect scores awarded was
determined based on the number of cars judged. In addition, a percentage
comparison was made of the perfect scores awarded in each of the six
regions
participating in 2011 JCNA Concours events. Finally, the number of perfect
scores per event for each region was calculated. Statistical data is
available upon request.

As a result of this review, the following information was
ascertained:
.1,380 cars were judged across the six regions of the JCNA during the 2011
Concours season.
.136 perfect scores were awarded in the Champion, Driven,
and Special Classes.
.10% of the cars judged received perfect scores. Using this percentage as
a
benchmark, a comparison was made between the perfect scores awarded in
each
region and the percentage of perfect scores awarded for the year across
the
six JCNA
regions, the aforementioned benchmark percentage.
.The highest percentage of perfect
scores awarded was in the South Central Region with 19%. Second was the
Southwest Region with 12%. Third was the North Central Region with 9%.
There
was a tie for fourth between the South East and North East Regions with
8%.
Fifth, and the lowest percentage of perfect scores awarded, was in the
North
West Region with 3%.
.The highest number of perfect scores awarded per event was also in the
South Central Region with 5.1. There was a tie for second between the
South
West and North Central Regions with 2.9. Third was the North East Region
with 2.3. Fourth was the South East Region with 2.1, and last was the
North
West Region with 1.0.

The above information raises several interesting questions.(To be
continued.)

Dave Maupin, 1976 XJ 5.3C
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

4

Mark,
You are correct that there are “Judging Disparities” within JCNA. That is
what happens when you use those darn People but I am very glad to see that
you have volunteered to receive copies of the hundreds of judges sheets so
you can personally analyze them in your spare time. Please let everyone know
what your postal address and fax number are so they can deliver these
massive collection of scoresheets to you.
Steve Kennedy----- Original Message -----
From: “Mark Stephenson” mark@jag-lovers.org
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 1:11 PM
Subject: RE: [concours] A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Dave,

There are externalities involved which may naturally skew the scores.
Remember that correlation does not imply causation. One thing from which
we
benefit from in the Southwest, and to a certain extent in South Central is
wonderful weather. Flexible stuff dries out, but everything else hardly
deteriorates. There’s also the possibility that there are a number of
excellent cars in an area. California has long been a Mecca for automobile
lovers. Standards of restoration may be slightly higher there. I remember
the first car to receive a perfect score at the JCCA concours was a Mark 2
from CA. Not only was the car a trailer queen, but the wheels barely
touched
terra firma. The owner had made tire booties. He drove the car to the
concours spot, pulled the booties off the tires and rolled the Jag the
last
foot off the booties. We viewed the procedure with a mixture of mirth and
admiration. I know another California entrant with a more modern four-door
Jag who has two sets of wheels, tires, and front seats. He puts the
perfect
set in for concours. I had one club tell me that they judged more cars
than
indicated on the JCNA site, but that they didn’t register the scores for
their club members who were only showing at their concours. They were in
the
SC region.

While a strict statistical analysis may be indicative, you have to take
into
account all these external factors. IMO, the only way to do that is to
follow car from concours to concours and compare their scores. Then you
would have to factor in any improvements made by the entrant. Usually what
happens among the true competitors is that when a non-authentic item is
found, they fix it before the next show. So it’s really a moving target.

Probably, the most accurate analysis would involve reviewing the
scoresheets
from concours to concours and comparing deductions, especially
non-authenticity ones. If you discovered a pattern where a club or clubs
cars handed out a higher percentage of perfect scores, then at a
subsequent
concours, they received one or more authenticity deductions, that would be
a
much stronger indication that the judges at the earlier concours were not
as
familiar, not as well trained or not as sharp eyed as the later judges.

That said, I don’t disagree that judging disparities exist in JCNA. To
that
end, I don’t think it would be a bad idea for JCNA to receive a copy of
scoresheets from the local clubs, for review. If they found a pattern
where
a club was giving consistently higher scores than a subsequent club, it
might be ground for a review of their judge training and testing.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson Phoenix, AZ
52 XK120 S673129; 59 Mark 1; 84, 85, 86, 95 XJ6

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of Coudamau
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 10:56 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

I have enjoyed participating in JCNA Concours events for more than ten
years. However, in recent years I have begun to question whether all
Jaguars
participating in Concours events across the six regions are held to the
same
strict JCNA judging standards. Other Concours participants with whom I
have
spoken have voiced the same question. In order to satisfy my own
curiosity,
I decided to take a closer look at Concours event scoring. This lead me to
conduct a detailed review of Concours event scoring for the entire JCNA
2011
Concours season.

The purpose of this review was to determine the percentage of perfect
scores
awarded at each Concours event during the
2011 Concours season, both by Club and by Region. First, the number of
cars
judged was established for each event.
Second, the number of perfect scores was tallied in the Champion, Driven,
and Special Classes. Third, the percentage of perfect scores awarded was
determined based on the number of cars judged. In addition, a percentage
comparison was made of the perfect scores awarded in each of the six
regions
participating in 2011 JCNA Concours events. Finally, the number of perfect
scores per event for each region was calculated. Statistical data is
available upon request.

As a result of this review, the following information was
ascertained:
.1,380 cars were judged across the six regions of the JCNA during the 2011
Concours season.
.136 perfect scores were awarded in the Champion, Driven,
and Special Classes.
.10% of the cars judged received perfect scores. Using this percentage as
a
benchmark, a comparison was made between the perfect scores awarded in
each
region and the percentage of perfect scores awarded for the year across
the
six JCNA
regions, the aforementioned benchmark percentage.
.The highest percentage of perfect
scores awarded was in the South Central Region with 19%. Second was the
Southwest Region with 12%. Third was the North Central Region with 9%.
There
was a tie for fourth between the South East and North East Regions with
8%.
Fifth, and the lowest percentage of perfect scores awarded, was in the
North
West Region with 3%.
.The highest number of perfect scores awarded per event was also in the
South Central Region with 5.1. There was a tie for second between the
South
West and North Central Regions with 2.9. Third was the North East Region
with 2.3. Fourth was the South East Region with 2.1, and last was the
North
West Region with 1.0.

The above information raises several interesting questions.(To be
continued.)

Dave Maupin, 1976 XJ 5.3C
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

5

My job is to sanction and approve the Concours reports submitted by the
various clubs in the JCNA. JCNA Concours scoring is dependant upon judge
qualifications and application of the approved judging standards. Yes, you
are correct that there is a disparity among clubs and regions and it has to
be frustrating to get a high score at one event and a significantly lower
one at another. The JCRC has made huge strides in improving the judging
standards; one example being mandatory deductions for non-authentic items,
another being published judging guides. In my opinion the judging disparity
comes from (1) non-qualified judges (2) subjective deductions for
cleanliness and condition issues.

The majority of JCNA clubs use component judging where each judge on a team
is assigned a specific area of the vehicle to evaluate. Current JCNA rules
only require ONE QUALIFIED JUDGE per team and that judge only need be
certified within the past three years. So, right out of the gate you have a
three person judging team with two of them not trained to judge. Many
non-authentic items are missed due to judge ignorance.

Condition and cleanliness inspection is subjective and there are large
disparities between judging teams on how many points to deduct. This past
year I entered my car in three Concours at Champion Division level. At two
of the events I received paint chip deductions of 0.2 points total. At the
third I received 2.0 points. It all comes down to training judges how much
to properly deduct for observed defects. One idea we are looking into is a
national training video.

I asked this issue be addressed at the recent AGM proposing that the Rule
Book be changed to require all judges be certified. This was voted down
because many clubs felt they could not field the required number of judges.

So, if you want a national champion car, do your research and find the clubs
that give high percentages of 100 point scores. If you want your car to be
properly inspected find the clubs with the highest number of qualified
judges.

Pat Harmon
JCNA Concours Archivist-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of Coudamau
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 1:56 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

I have enjoyed participating in JCNA Concours events for
more than ten years. However, in recent years I have begun
to question whether all Jaguars participating in Concours
events across the six regions are held to the same strict
JCNA judging standards. Other Concours participants with
whom I have spoken have voiced the same question. In order
to satisfy my own curiosity, I decided to take a closer look
at Concours event scoring. This lead me to conduct a
detailed review of Concours event scoring for the entire
JCNA 2011 Concours season.

The purpose of this review was to determine the percentage
of perfect scores awarded at each Concours event during the
2011 Concours season, both by Club and by Region. First, the
number of cars judged was established for each event.
Second, the number of perfect scores was tallied in the
Champion, Driven, and Special Classes. Third, the percentage
of perfect scores awarded was determined based on the number
of cars judged. In addition, a percentage comparison was
made of the perfect scores awarded in each of the six
regions participating in 2011 JCNA Concours events. Finally,
the number of perfect scores per event for each region was
calculated. Statistical data is available upon request.

As a result of this review, the following information was
ascertained:
.1,380 cars were judged across the six regions of the JCNA
during the 2011 Concours season.
.136 perfect scores were awarded in the Champion, Driven,
and Special Classes.
.10% of the cars judged received perfect scores. Using this
percentage as a benchmark, a comparison was made between the
perfect scores awarded in each region and the percentage of
perfect scores awarded for the year across the six JCNA
regions, the aforementioned benchmark percentage.
.The highest
percentage of perfect scores awarded was in the South
Central Region with 19%. Second was the Southwest Region
with 12%. Third was the North Central Region with 9%. There
was a tie for fourth between the South East and North East
Regions with 8%. Fifth, and the lowest percentage of perfect
scores awarded, was in the North West Region with 3%.
.The highest number of perfect scores awarded per event was
also in the South Central Region with 5.1. There was a tie
for second between the South West and North Central Regions
with 2.9. Third was the North East Region with 2.3. Fourth
was the South East Region with 2.1, and last was the North
West Region with 1.0.

The above information raises several interesting
questions.(To be continued.)

Dave Maupin, 1976 XJ 5.3C
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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6

In reply to a message from Pat Harmon sent Mon 26 Mar 2012:

Well said Pat. You and your colleagues are the reason North
Georgia is my favorite Concours event.

I have some ideas that may make your job as Concours
Archivist a little easier.–
The original message included these comments:

My job is to sanction and approve the Concours reports submitted by the
various clubs in the JCNA. JCNA Concours scoring is dependant upon judge
qualifications and application of the approved judging standards. Yes, you
that give high percentages of 100 point scores. If you want your car to be
properly inspected find the clubs with the highest number of qualified

–
Dave Maupin, 1976 XJ 5.3C
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

7

It bothers me to see judges who own restoration shops judging cars they have restored, against cars which others have restored. I am sure they are honest, but it just doesn’t seem right though.
Mike MooreOn Mar 26, 2012, at 6:33 AM, Pat Harmon wrote:

My job is to sanction and approve the Concours reports submitted by the
various clubs in the JCNA. JCNA Concours scoring is dependant upon judge
qualifications and application of the approved judging standards. Yes, you
are correct that there is a disparity among clubs and regions and it has to
be frustrating to get a high score at one event and a significantly lower
one at another. The JCRC has made huge strides in improving the judging
standards; one example being mandatory deductions for non-authentic items,
another being published judging guides. In my opinion the judging disparity
comes from (1) non-qualified judges (2) subjective deductions for
cleanliness and condition issues.

The majority of JCNA clubs use component judging where each judge on a team
is assigned a specific area of the vehicle to evaluate. Current JCNA rules
only require ONE QUALIFIED JUDGE per team and that judge only need be
certified within the past three years. So, right out of the gate you have a
three person judging team with two of them not trained to judge. Many
non-authentic items are missed due to judge ignorance.

Condition and cleanliness inspection is subjective and there are large
disparities between judging teams on how many points to deduct. This past
year I entered my car in three Concours at Champion Division level. At two
of the events I received paint chip deductions of 0.2 points total. At the
third I received 2.0 points. It all comes down to training judges how much
to properly deduct for observed defects. One idea we are looking into is a
national training video.

I asked this issue be addressed at the recent AGM proposing that the Rule
Book be changed to require all judges be certified. This was voted down
because many clubs felt they could not field the required number of judges.

So, if you want a national champion car, do your research and find the clubs
that give high percentages of 100 point scores. If you want your car to be
properly inspected find the clubs with the highest number of qualified
judges.

Pat Harmon
JCNA Concours Archivist

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of Coudamau
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 1:56 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

I have enjoyed participating in JCNA Concours events for
more than ten years. However, in recent years I have begun
to question whether all Jaguars participating in Concours
events across the six regions are held to the same strict
JCNA judging standards. Other Concours participants with
whom I have spoken have voiced the same question. In order
to satisfy my own curiosity, I decided to take a closer look
at Concours event scoring. This lead me to conduct a
detailed review of Concours event scoring for the entire
JCNA 2011 Concours season.

The purpose of this review was to determine the percentage
of perfect scores awarded at each Concours event during the
2011 Concours season, both by Club and by Region. First, the
number of cars judged was established for each event.
Second, the number of perfect scores was tallied in the
Champion, Driven, and Special Classes. Third, the percentage
of perfect scores awarded was determined based on the number
of cars judged. In addition, a percentage comparison was
made of the perfect scores awarded in each of the six
regions participating in 2011 JCNA Concours events. Finally,
the number of perfect scores per event for each region was
calculated. Statistical data is available upon request.

As a result of this review, the following information was
ascertained:
.1,380 cars were judged across the six regions of the JCNA
during the 2011 Concours season.
.136 perfect scores were awarded in the Champion, Driven,
and Special Classes.
.10% of the cars judged received perfect scores. Using this
percentage as a benchmark, a comparison was made between the
perfect scores awarded in each region and the percentage of
perfect scores awarded for the year across the six JCNA
regions, the aforementioned benchmark percentage.
.The highest
percentage of perfect scores awarded was in the South
Central Region with 19%. Second was the Southwest Region
with 12%. Third was the North Central Region with 9%. There
was a tie for fourth between the South East and North East
Regions with 8%. Fifth, and the lowest percentage of perfect
scores awarded, was in the North West Region with 3%.
.The highest number of perfect scores awarded per event was
also in the South Central Region with 5.1. There was a tie
for second between the South West and North Central Regions
with 2.9. Third was the North East Region with 2.3. Fourth
was the South East Region with 2.1, and last was the North
West Region with 1.0.

The above information raises several interesting
questions.(To be continued.)

Dave Maupin, 1976 XJ 5.3C
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8

In reply to a message from Coudamau sent Sun 25 Mar 2012:

This has always been one of the most difficult subjects to tackle.
I just sat down and reviewed my past Judging sheets, well those I
have saved anyway. I don�t see one area that compares consistently
across all of them. Fact is when looking at them you would think I
had showed a totally different car at each of the 46 Concours I
have attended , so I know what you are saying.

At present, certifying JCNA judges just involves having them take a
test to see if they can find the right answer in the rule book when
in addition to the question, the exact page and paragraph is given
directing them to where the correct answer can be found. This most
times but not all, would be then followed up with an informal test
judging of sample cars. (Anything less than a 100% score on the
written test alone would I have thought earned an �f� when it does
not but that is just my thoughts).

Not the finest way of filtering out a person�s qualifications for
being considered a suitable Concours judge. However considering
these are car clubs made up with just enthusiastic volunteers and
not dedicated professionals. This is a system that is difficult if
not impossible to improve on. If you try and tighten the individual
judging qualifications up, you would most probably end up just
scaring off potential volunteer judges and that would result in
very few Concours d�Elegances events being held for people to
attend.

I have always thought that considering that the Chief Judges in
each of the clubs are the ones most responsible for the evaluating
and training of the individual �volunteer judges� they choose to
use. They are the ones that JCNA should be focussing their
attention on. Standards are always set at the top and work their
way down through the ranks. I believe if all the chief judges were
assisted to make it possible for them to be reading from the same
page of the book, we would stand a far better chance of achieving
the across clubs uniformity that you and most other serious
Concours participants are seeking.

I also think that in addition to the what we judge now we should
also be judging the underside of the cars. Nothing worse in my book
than a 100 point top side sitting on a rusty frame. :slight_smile:

So that shows where I am coming from.–
The original message included these comments:

I have enjoyed participating in JCNA Concours events for
more than ten years. However, in recent years I have begun
to question whether all Jaguars participating in Concours
events across the six regions are held to the same strict
JCNA judging standards. Other Concours participants with

–
Peddlarbob
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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9

That is against the rules and grounds for disqualification. If you know of
such a situation please bring it to the attention of the Chief Judge. The
JCNA Rule Book available on the JCNA website for free, covers this.

Regards,

Paul M. Novak

1990 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1990 XJ-S Classic Collection convertible
1987 XJ6 Vanden Plas
1985 XJ6 Vanden Plas (parts)
1984 XJ6 Vanden Plas
1969 E-Type FHC
1957 MK VIII Saloon
Ramona, CA
P.M.Novak7@gmail.com-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of Michael Moore
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 7:24 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Cc: Michael Moore
Subject: Re: [concours] RE: [Concours] A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for
2011

It bothers me to see judges who own restoration shops judging cars they have
restored, against cars which others have restored. I am sure they are
honest, but it just doesn’t seem right though.
Mike Moore
On Mar 26, 2012, at 6:33 AM, Pat Harmon wrote:

10

Mike,

Judging a car that you, or someone who works for you, restored is

against the JCNA rules.

Provided below is a quote out of the current 2012 JCNA Concours Rule

Book (Version 10.2) regarding judging a car that you have worked on. This
information is found on page III-6. All JCNA Judges should be aware of this
and if you are aware of this happening you should bring this to the
attention of the Chief Judge of the club involved including the specifics.

“8. Judging Own Class
A Judge may not judge his or her own Jaguar(s) or the specific class(es) in
which their cars may be entered. Neither may he nor she judge the class in
which an immediate family member has a car entered. If a person or firm has
performed existing cosmetic restoration on a Jaguar, neither that person nor
any member of the restoration firm involved may judge the class in which
that Jaguar is entered.”

All JCNA certified Judges should be aware of this and if you are aware of
this happening you should bring this to the attention of the Chief Judge of
the club involved including the specifics so that it can be looked into and
prevented in the future.

Regards,

Paul M. Novak

1990 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1990 XJ-S Classic Collection convertible
1987 XJ6 Vanden Plas
1985 XJ6 Vanden Plas (parts)
1984 XJ6 Vanden Plas
1969 E-Type FHC
1957 MK VIII Saloon
Ramona, CA
P.M.Novak7@gmail.com-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of Michael Moore
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 7:24 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Cc: Michael Moore
Subject: Re: [concours] RE: [Concours] A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for
2011

It bothers me to see judges who own restoration shops judging cars they have
restored, against cars which others have restored. I am sure they are
honest, but it just doesn’t seem right though.

Mike Moore
On Mar 26, 2012, at 6:33 AM, Pat Harmon wrote:

11

Paul, thanks a lot, I am really glad to know that’s the policy.
Mike Moore 'On Mar 26, 2012, at 10:36 PM, Paul Novak wrote:

Mike,

Judging a car that you, or someone who works for you, restored is
against the JCNA rules.

Provided below is a quote out of the current 2012 JCNA Concours Rule
Book (Version 10.2) regarding judging a car that you have worked on. This
information is found on page III-6. All JCNA Judges should be aware of this
and if you are aware of this happening you should bring this to the
attention of the Chief Judge of the club involved including the specifics.

“8. Judging Own Class
A Judge may not judge his or her own Jaguar(s) or the specific class(es) in
which their cars may be entered. Neither may he nor she judge the class in
which an immediate family member has a car entered. If a person or firm has
performed existing cosmetic restoration on a Jaguar, neither that person nor
any member of the restoration firm involved may judge the class in which
that Jaguar is entered.”

All JCNA certified Judges should be aware of this and if you are aware of
this happening you should bring this to the attention of the Chief Judge of
the club involved including the specifics so that it can be looked into and
prevented in the future.

Regards,

Paul M. Novak

1990 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1990 XJ-S Classic Collection convertible
1987 XJ6 Vanden Plas
1985 XJ6 Vanden Plas (parts)
1984 XJ6 Vanden Plas
1969 E-Type FHC
1957 MK VIII Saloon
Ramona, CA
P.M.Novak7@gmail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of Michael Moore
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 7:24 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Cc: Michael Moore
Subject: Re: [concours] RE: [Concours] A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for
2011

It bothers me to see judges who own restoration shops judging cars they have
restored, against cars which others have restored. I am sure they are
honest, but it just doesn’t seem right though.

Mike Moore
On Mar 26, 2012, at 6:33 AM, Pat Harmon wrote:

12

In reply to a message from Mark Stephenson sent Sun 25 Mar 2012:

Gentlemen,

I’m very happy that finally someone seems to be silling to discuss
the problem of disparity in judging. I used to show my MK IV, my
XK120SE and my XK150S and quit showing them because I witnessed a
flagrant attitude in three or four shows that the local competitor
had the perfect car, 100 points at most of his showings for the
last 6-7-8 years; that car is a pretty car but not correct: I
photographed at least 15 wrongs on his car and he consistently gets
100’s. I wrote a letter to the man in charge at the JCNA but did
not get anywhere. No fifty year old car, if well judged, should get
100 points, it would not have gotten 100 points when it was new and
out of the showroom! To get close to a perfect car in Concours, one
has to spend tens of thousands of dollars more than he’d have to to
get an excellent driver; then the car is judged by well meaning
judges who compare the car from out of the immediate area to the
local ‘‘perfect car’’. It seems that the local car is the only such
car they have ever seen. One of the cars I’m talking about had the
wrong bonnet, an XK120 generator (in a XK150), and many many more
descrepancies (I have the photos); another car did not have the
little’‘door’’ on the transmission tunnel to check the transmission
oil level, still got 100’s… Some people will say that this sounds
like sour grapes, it’s not; it’s disappointing, I haven’t shown my
cars in 3-4 years and bad judging has kept me from enjoying what
used to be great fun.

I never wanted to write this but when I saw this topic, I had to do
it for the future of the JCNA Concours d’Elegance.

Hoping that I did not offend anybody,

Best Regards

Marcel LeHouillier–
marcelxke
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13

When it comes to authenticity issues it mostly boils down to A) the
expertise of the judges and B) what they can find in the 15 minute time
allowance.

Of course a more subjective human element often does come into play. For
example, some judges have favorite places to look for faults and go right to
them…while ignoring others. Others worry about creating disharmony on the
field. And, different chief judges use their own discretion in setting the
tone and level of rigidity of the event.

Never in a million years will we get away from these human variables.

Anyhow…

I hate to sound callous but I have to wonder if judges with XK120/140/150
expertise are literally dying off. If that’s the case, and if you’re truly
concerned about the future of the JCNA concours program, I imagine that
someone with your (presumed) expertise could help the effort tremendously by
staying involved rather than distancing yourself. I’ll wager the chief judge
of your local club would be tickled to have another judge on his roster,
especially one with a high level of knowledge.

You know the old saying" “if you’re not part of the solution you’re part of
the problem”. :slight_smile:

As for whether or not 100-point cars do, could, or should really exist is
too much for me to bite off at the moment :slight_smile:

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJRFrom: “marcelxke” mmlehouillier@hotmail.com

. No fifty year old car, if well judged, should get
100 points, it would not have gotten 100 points when it was new and
out of the showroom!

One of the cars I’m talking about had the
wrong bonnet, an XK120 generator (in a XK150), and many many more
descrepancies (I have the photos); another car did not have the
little’‘door’’ on the transmission tunnel to check the transmission
oil level,

I never wanted to write this but when I saw this topic, I had to do
it for the future of the JCNA Concours d’Elegance.

14

In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Sat 24 Nov 2012:

Good Morning Doug:

Thanks for your comments; I have distanced myself from the
Concours, not because my local clubs did not do an excepetionally
good job of judging, they do and are tough in their judging; I’m
talking about some of the clubs who are ‘‘easy’’ either because they
don’t know or because after giving 100’s so many times to the same
car, they can’t go back… I’m pretty sure it’s not intentional and
the odd oversight is understandable, but not when I can see and did
photograph fifteen or twenty of them in five minutes. Again, some
of them are very pretty cars but not correct. The problem is that
we restore these cars and want to compete for the ultimate North
American title and are judged by local judges whom, I agree with
you, are subjected to human variables…

By discussing this openly, I think that I am part of a possible
solution… There are a lot of very knowledgeable people who have
restored XK’s all over the Country, but a lot of them have
distanced themselves for the same reason.

Thanks for your response, much appreciated,

Regards

Marcel–
marcelxke
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15

Marcel,

Bring your car to Phoenix for some tough, accurate judging. I won’t say
we’ll catch everything, but we take pride in catching many things that have
escaped the scrutiny of judges at many concours prior to ours. In terms of
authenticity, if we don’t catch it, chances are no one else will. Many of
our judges study the guides before concours (not during) and know what to
look for going in. We also assign judges to the cars they know.

Rather than take the easy route and keep a judging team together for the
entire day, we construct and deconstruct judging teams so that we have the
most knowledgeable judges judging the classes they know best. If we have a
judge with a Jaguar entered in a Champion Class, we put them on a judging
team that judges the comparable class in Driven Division, and vice versa.
Doing this requires knowing who your judges are and what their areas of
expertise are in advance, then creating a timeline with 20 minute intervals,
and putting teams together on that timeline, making sure that we don’t have
a judge in two places at once. At Western States 2012, the Chief Judge and I
spent at least 8 hours working out the judges schedule. It’s geometrically
easier at smaller concours, but you have to do this far enough in advance so
the judges can study the guides where they exist.

In other words, accurate judging takes forethought and preparation both on
the part of the Chief Judge and the judges themselves. The best entrants
spend scores of hours prepping their cars; don’t they deserve judges that
have spent a couple hours prepping to judge?

I will correct you on one point. A car that just rolled of the assembly line
would score 100 because that’s how 100 pts. is defined in the JCNA Rule
Book. It’s not perfection, it’s as the car left the factory. I constantly
have to correct judges on my teams who want to take points off for uneven
body panel gaps outside and paint flaws in less visible areas. They are
judging to the standard of a modern, robot-built car, which Jaguars of the
fifties and sixties were far from. We had an XK120 in the club that had been
owned by the same family since new and had been driven only 7000 miles. It
has two factory paint flaws on the exterior, a drip and a sag. We’ve never
deducted for them because based on the placement and direction, they were
almost certainly from the factory.

I will not argue that JCNA judging is inconsistent, but when you have
hundreds of judges with varying skill, knowledge, preparation, and expertise
levels scattered across North America, it will never be an exact science. It
can be better – much better. The way that happens is for people like you,
with a desire for consistency, to volunteer to judge, be the head of your
judging team, or best of all, volunteer for Chief Judge of your local club.
That’s what I did. I got tired of the same things you got tired of and
figured I could improve the situation. One common misconception about being
a Chief Judge is that you have to know everything about every Jaguar.
Technically, you don’t have to know anything about any Jaguar. In fact, know
too much and it can actually be a distraction. Your job in the weeks leading
up to the concours, is to choose and motivate judges so that they, as a
group, know everything about every Jaguar. Choose wisely, Grasshopper, and
they will not come to you concours day asking if the confabulator set screw
is supposed to be slotted or Phillips. Instead, they will be asking you
about the finer points of the application of JCNA Rules, because overseeing
that is your job on concours day.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson Phoenix, AZ
52 XK120 S673129; 59 Mark 1; 84, 85, 86, 95 XJ6

P.S. I hope everyone understood the “Grasshopper” reference (American TV).
If not…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=7pdsZ3wnElo-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of marcelxke
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 5:23 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [concours] A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

In reply to a message from Mark Stephenson sent Sun 25 Mar 2012:

Gentlemen,

I’m very happy that finally someone seems to be silling to discuss the
problem of disparity in judging.

16

True enough that open discussion is indeed helpful in that it brings issues
to the surface but I maintain that the “fix” is to increase the level of
expertise in the judging…and THAT, I believe, requires direct
participation from those who have the knowledge and are willing and able to
teach others.

Mark’s comments about organizing and prepping judging teams are very good.
I’ve seen many instances where chief judges struggled to merely get enough
judges on the field regardless of expertise and level of preparation.

I fully appreciate how discouraging it can be, especially for a serious
competitor, when judging isn’t reasonably consistent and held to high
standards. Ideally we’d have many more people interested in judging and a
more intense certification process requiring demonstration of some actual
model-by-model expertise. My impression over the years is that, besides the
low-ish overall level of participation, not enough judges have or desire
that level of intensity.

Until and unless there is a widespread demand for more intense judging (such
as we see at Corvette or Porsche concours events) and more direct
participation from the most knowledgeable enthusiasts, I don’t see much
changing.

Cheers
Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJRFrom: “marcelxke” mmlehouillier@hotmail.com

By discussing this openly, I think that I am part of a possible
solution… There are a lot of very knowledgeable people who have
restored XK’s all over the Country, but a lot of them have
distanced themselves for the same reason.

17

In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Sun 25 Nov 2012:

The only thing I do not understand about this discussion is why it
is not being held on the JCNA forum. It does little good here. As
far as the ‘‘head man’’ I assume you mean Dick Cavicke. If he did not
respond he never got the letter! Period. I have know Dick for years
and he takes the judging and comments seriously.–
The original message included these comments:

True enough that open discussion is indeed helpful in that it brings issues
to the surface but I maintain that the ‘‘fix’’ is to increase the level of
expertise in the judging…and THAT, I believe, requires direct

–
JCRC SE member JCNA Regional Director SE JCNA Auth. Desk
Columbia SC, United States
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18

In reply to a message from marcelxke sent Sat 24 Nov 2012:

Gentlemen:

Just throwing a suggestion around off the top of my head:

If one was to compete in at least three Concours and was to finish
in the top three in North America, wouldn’t it be worth his time
and expense to have a final judging day by the most credible
judges? We know who they are: Mark Stephenson, Dick Cavicke and
many others know who some of them are. We all meet at the same
venue and get judged and find out who the real champion is. Think
about the people who always wanted to compete with their car from
an equal footing but like me, distanced themselves because of the
same reason I did; this would mean quite a few of the best cars
around would be back to show at least three times a season; this
might help to revive our Concours d’Elegance and fire up the
competition… The excitement would be back!

Thanks for all your opinions, much appreciated,

Best Regards

Marcel

I must say that I am extremely pleased to see how this exchange is
going, with people whose opinion I respect; I’d like to hear from
Robert Stephenson from Michigan, one of most respected XKE
experts.–
marcelxke
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19

Marcel,
In the past, I have suggested that for the Challenge Championship to be a
true championship, there be a field of Jaguars, all of whom have earned at
least a 99.99 to enter the competition in each category. I did some checking
and for Series 1 E-Types, there were only 3 or 4, maybe fewer that would
have even qualified for such a category. Yes, with 3, that would make a 1st,
2nd, 3rd placement, but not hardly enough to create excitement.
Steve-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of marcelxke
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:49 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [concours] A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

In reply to a message from marcelxke sent Sat 24 Nov 2012:

Gentlemen:

Just throwing a suggestion around off the top of my head:

If one was to compete in at least three Concours and was to finish
in the top three in North America, wouldn’t it be worth his time
and expense to have a final judging day by the most credible
judges? We know who they are: Mark Stephenson, Dick Cavicke and
many others know who some of them are. We all meet at the same
venue and get judged and find out who the real champion is. Think
about the people who always wanted to compete with their car from
an equal footing but like me, distanced themselves because of the
same reason I did; this would mean quite a few of the best cars
around would be back to show at least three times a season; this
might help to revive our Concours d’Elegance and fire up the
competition… The excitement would be back!

Thanks for all your opinions, much appreciated,

Best Regards

Marcel

I must say that I am extremely pleased to see how this exchange is
going, with people whose opinion I respect; I’d like to hear from
Robert Stephenson from Michigan, one of most respected XKE
experts.

marcelxke
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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20

In reply to a message from Steve Kennedy sent Sun 25 Nov 2012:

Good Morning Steve,

You’re right, it shouldn’t be limited to three; what if it was
lowered to 99.98? Taking care of a spec of dust, a streak on the
glass, a little dirt somewhere…could often bring those cars back
up… I believe that there are quite a few cars that used to score
in the 99.98+ could qualify with a little work; any previously high
scoring competitors should be contacted and told about this new
venue…I think that some of them would come out of the woodwork.

I love the idea of a ‘‘CHAMPIONSHIP CHALLENGE’’… where every car is
judged by the same standards.

Thanks for your comments,

Regards

Marcel–
marcelxke
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