Have E-mailed Bob Sawyer a couple of times and got back good helpful info on
how Jaguar Concours Driven classes are conducted, since I’ve never been to one
that is apparently run By the Book. I don’t intend to ever make my car
concours, but the driven class seems doable. I understand that there are two
sheets, one for originality and one for condition and that the engine and boot
aren’t part of the equation, so long as the engine is truly Jaguar…no
lumping…but of course it never hurts of those areas are pretty darn nice
too!! Does anyone have advice that may help outside of these useful
guidelines, or experiences that may help me not be embarassed as I prepare to
go into my first one?? I do know what early E-type original is, and certainly
know what parts on my particiular car aren’t in original condition, yet! . I do
understand that Concours (non-driven) have 100 points possible, and that driven
actually have 10 points possible, w/scores in the 8.xxx and 9.xxx range, and
also that you must get a certain minimum to even place…but don’t know how
that works…Also, are there any actual reference books I could get on this???
and where??? and how much??? and thanks in advance… Steve Roush, Huntington
Beach, CA., USA 62 E-type OTS
About the driven class: I have participated in the Driven Class three
times (with three “first in class” awards). My experience is that the
championship and driven classes are judged in EXACTLY the same manner and
in the same detail, except that the engine compartment and boot are not
judged. There is no sheet for originality. This is part of the normal
score sheet. The scores are allotted in the same way as the championship
scores, but then divided so the total is out of 10 not 100. My last
score was 9.976 for example. As in the championship class, everything
must be authentically Jaguar. Those trick wheels would mean a big loss
of points, and indicate that your car should be judged in the “modified”
category. Above all, cleanliness and care in preparation are vital.
Gregory Andrachuk
Victoria, Canada
82 xj6 (class D6)
84 xj6 Sovereign (class D6)Steve,
The best advice for anyone entering concours competition is CLEAN IT REAL GOOD.
Insofar as driven goes, sure there are a lot of things that can get point deducts,
but nothing gets noticed better than dirt and nothing gets deducted for more often.
Simple reason being it is probably the single most common thing under the owner’s
own control (it’s hard to fault an owner for what has become the standard mediocre
professional paint job, chrome polishing or parts reproduction). That said, I’ll
assume we’re not talking beat up paint and broken spokes.
SK
62 OTS
Steve Roush 1-310-884-8570 wrote:> Have E-mailed Bob Sawyer a couple of times and got back good helpful info on
how Jaguar Concours Driven classes are conducted, since I’ve never been to one
that is apparently run By the Book. I don’t intend to ever make my car
concours, but the driven class seems doable. I understand that there are two
sheets, one for originality and one for condition and that the engine and boot
aren’t part of the equation, so long as the engine is truly Jaguar…no
lumping…but of course it never hurts of those areas are pretty darn nice
too!! Does anyone have advice that may help outside of these useful
guidelines, or experiences that may help me not be embarassed as I prepare to
go into my first one?? I do know what early E-type original is, and certainly
know what parts on my particiular car aren’t in original condition, yet! . I do
understand that Concours (non-driven) have 100 points possible, and that driven
actually have 10 points possible, w/scores in the 8.xxx and 9.xxx range, and
also that you must get a certain minimum to even place…but don’t know how
that works…Also, are there any actual reference books I could get on this???
and where??? and how much??? and thanks in advance… Steve Roush, Huntington
Beach, CA., USA 62 E-type OTS
I just finished judging interiors at the JANE concours. Dirt was one
of the main deduction areas – especially in folds in the leather, in
the carpet, around the instruments, and in all the little nooks and crannies.
It takes boxes of Q-tips, and toothpicks to properly clean a car for
showing. In driven there are usually more deductions for wear than
in championship cars – scuffed and cracked leather, scratched paint,
pitted chrome, etc. But that’s expected, and anybody who gets perfect
scores in those areas should probably be moving on to the championship
class anyway.
One item that was a big point loser for a lot of driven cars was having
a non-authentic stereo. At a minimum of 2-points each, a Mark 2 with
stereo, CD player, equalizer, twin amps and 6 speakers can lose a whopping
22 points. (Of course, that still would leave an otherwise perfect
car with a 9.780 score). Although I didn’t do exteriors, I noted there
were also some heavy deductions for tires of the wrong size.
Chip
At 5:56 PM +0000 8/5/98, Steve Roush 1-310-884-8570 wrote:>Have E-mailed Bob Sawyer a couple of times and got back good helpful info on
how Jaguar Concours Driven classes are conducted, since I’ve never been to one
that is apparently run By the Book. I don’t intend to ever make my car
concours, but the driven class seems doable. I understand that there are two
sheets, one for originality and one for condition and that the engine and boot
aren’t part of the equation, so long as the engine is truly Jaguar…no
lumping…but of course it never hurts of those areas are pretty darn nice
too!! Does anyone have advice that may help outside of these useful
guidelines, or experiences that may help me not be embarassed as I prepare to
go into my first one?? I do know what early E-type original is, and certainly
know what parts on my particiular car aren’t in original condition, yet! .
I do
understand that Concours (non-driven) have 100 points possible, and that
driven
actually have 10 points possible, w/scores in the 8.xxx and 9.xxx range, and
also that you must get a certain minimum to even place…but don’t know how
that works…Also, are there any actual reference books I could get on this???
and where??? and how much??? and thanks in advance… Steve Roush, Huntington
Beach, CA., USA 62 E-type OTS
Chip wrote:
—snip------
One item that was a big point loser for a lot of driven cars
was having
a non-authentic stereo. At a minimum of 2-points each, a Mark 2 with
stereo, CD player, equalizer, twin amps and 6 speakers can
lose a whopping
22 points.
If I drive a car (daily) I will want the best stereo I can afford. The
fact that it isn’t the crappy radio that came with the car shouldn’t
matter. If the stereo is installed “professionally” and doesn’t detract
from the overall appearance, then it shouldn’t make any difference. Now
if the car is being judged on “orginality” only, then yes, by all means
deduct. I like some of the newer events I’ve been to where the crowd
picks based on the original concept of a “Concurs d’Elegance” a
“Gathering of Excellence”, the car that looks the “best” in the eye of
the voting public, wins. Who cares if it’s original. I much rather have
a drivable car which looks good, than a trailer queen which looks
perfect.
Lee
There’s Class 16 (Modified) for cars whose owners want to be judged
exclusive of originality. The flip side of your argument is that a
lot of people are there to show their antique cars that they have
lovingly maintained and attempted to return to the car’s period
appearance. It wouldn’t be fair to them to let others get away with
lumping the engine, flaring the fenders, and painting the exterior
hot pink. It’s a matter of comparing apples to oranges if the
two types of cars end up competing with each other. Hence the separate
class for modified cars.
Since JCNA’s stated purpose for sanctioned concours events includes
“preservation of the marque”, the majority of the classes are
oriented toward the antique/vintage car restorer. Driven classes
are there for people who want to enjoy their restored cars
instead of trailering them. I also judged Class 16, where we had
a pair of cars – one that was modestly modified (special wheels,
stereo, etc.) and one highly modified (nitrous injection, custom
interior and bodywork, etc. – but a stock stereo ;-). They were
simply judged on factors of cleanliness and wear.
People’s choice awards are often nice, in that they reward cars
that are attractive on the surface. But they are also rather arbitrary,
since the winner depends on the taste of the spectators.
Chip>Lee Walden wrote:
If I drive a car (daily) I will want the best stereo I can afford. The
fact that it isn’t the crappy radio that came with the car shouldn’t
matter. If the stereo is installed “professionally” and doesn’t detract
from the overall appearance, then it shouldn’t make any difference. Now
if the car is being judged on “orginality” only, then yes, by all means
deduct. I like some of the newer events I’ve been to where the crowd
picks based on the original concept of a “Concurs d’Elegance” a
“Gathering of Excellence”, the car that looks the “best” in the eye of
the voting public, wins. Who cares if it’s original. I much rather have
a drivable car which looks good, than a trailer queen which looks
perfect.Lee
Chip, for the benefit of the list and since I’m not a member of any
clubs, is there a list someplace which describes the different classes,
and what’s judged? I know based on discussions here that there are some
things which result in a lot of point deductions and others which result
in next to nothing, and sometimes it seems that the more glaring the
error the fewer the points. Lee> -----Original Message-----
From: Chip Weems [mailto:weems@cs.umass.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 1:08 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [concours] Re: Concours Digest V1 #57There’s Class 16 (Modified) for cars whose owners want to be judged
exclusive of originality. The flip side of your argument is that a
lot of people are there to show their antique cars that they have
lovingly maintained and attempted to return to the car’s period
appearance. It wouldn’t be fair to them to let others get away with
lumping the engine, flaring the fenders, and painting the exterior
hot pink. It’s a matter of comparing apples to oranges if the
two types of cars end up competing with each other. Hence the separate
class for modified cars.Since JCNA’s stated purpose for sanctioned concours events includes
“preservation of the marque”, the majority of the classes are
oriented toward the antique/vintage car restorer. Driven classes
are there for people who want to enjoy their restored cars
instead of trailering them. I also judged Class 16, where we had
a pair of cars – one that was modestly modified (special wheels,
stereo, etc.) and one highly modified (nitrous injection, custom
interior and bodywork, etc. – but a stock stereo ;-). They were
simply judged on factors of cleanliness and wear.People’s choice awards are often nice, in that they reward cars
that are attractive on the surface. But they are also rather
arbitrary,
since the winner depends on the taste of the spectators.Chip
Lee Walden wrote:
If I drive a car (daily) I will want the best stereo I can
afford. The
fact that it isn’t the crappy radio that came with the car shouldn’t
matter. If the stereo is installed “professionally” and
doesn’t detract
from the overall appearance, then it shouldn’t make any
difference. Now
if the car is being judged on “orginality” only, then yes,
by all means
deduct. I like some of the newer events I’ve been to where the crowd
picks based on the original concept of a “Concurs d’Elegance” a
“Gathering of Excellence”, the car that looks the “best” in
the eye of
the voting public, wins. Who cares if it’s original. I much
rather have
a drivable car which looks good, than a trailer queen which looks
perfect.Lee
Walden, Lee wrote:
Chip wrote:
—snip------One item that was a big point loser for a lot of driven cars
was having
a non-authentic stereo. At a minimum of 2-points each, a Mark 2 with
stereo, CD player, equalizer, twin amps and 6 speakers can
lose a whopping
22 points.If I drive a car (daily) I will want the best stereo I can afford. The
fact that it isn’t the crappy radio that came with the car shouldn’t
matter. If the stereo is installed “professionally” and doesn’t detract
from the overall appearance, then it shouldn’t make any difference. Now
if the car is being judged on “orginality” only, then yes, by all means
deduct. I like some of the newer events I’ve been to where the crowd
picks based on the original concept of a “Concurs d’Elegance” a
“Gathering of Excellence”, the car that looks the “best” in the eye of
the voting public, wins. Who cares if it’s original. I much rather have
a drivable car which looks good, than a trailer queen which looks
perfect.Lee
Lee,
You make an excellent point, perhaps there may be a happy medium for
cars in the driven class? I can agree with the “original or deduct”
attitude of the champion divsion, people know this when they get into
it. However, IMHO, updated head units should be allowed in the driven
class, perhaps with a smaller deduction… modified stereo systems
(amps…subs…etc…) Should either put the car in the modified division,
or people should accept that I suppose.
Just my thoughts…
Bill
A non-original stereo head would result in a 2-point minimum deduction
under current rules. That translates to 0.02 off of a driven-class
total. It’s easy to total up more than that in deductions for dirt and
wear, so many people cheerfully accept the 2-point hit in exchange for
the pleasure of good music in their car. Those who are really troubled by
it are usually candidates for switching to the championship classes or to
Class 16.
I should note also that hiding modern speakers behind the standard
grilles won’t lead to a deduction – if the change isn’t visible,
the judges won’t take off any points.
Chip
At 9:58 PM -0700 8/18/98, Bill Weismann wrote:>Lee,
You make an excellent point, perhaps there may be a happy medium for
cars in the driven class? I can agree with the “original or deduct”
attitude of the champion divsion, people know this when they get into
it. However, IMHO, updated head units should be allowed in the driven
class, perhaps with a smaller deduction… modified stereo systems
(amps…subs…etc…) Should either put the car in the modified division,
or people should accept that I suppose.Just my thoughts…
Bill
At 3:04 PM -0700 8/18/98, Walden, Lee wrote:
Chip, for the benefit of the list and since I’m not a member of any
clubs, is there a list someplace which describes the different classes,
and what’s judged? I know based on discussions here that there are some
things which result in a lot of point deductions and others which result
in next to nothing, and sometimes it seems that the more glaring the
error the fewer the points. Lee
The only place I’ve seen that lists all of this is the judges manual,
which is available from JCNA. It’s been suggested several times that
they put it online, but it hasn’t happened yet. Maybe now that they
at least have a web site, they’ll give it some consideration. Since
they hold the copyright on it, I’m reluctant to post large sections of
it. However, I think I can paraphrase the list of classes. My schedule’s
packed until the middle of next week, so I won’t have a chance to
dig out the manual and post the list until then. Basically, it
distinguishes the prewar cars, the XK’s, E-types, small and large
sedans, XJ sedans, XJS, XK8, competition cars, modified, and unrestored
original cars. Each class has a championship and a driven division.
The only difference between the divisions is that the bonnet and boot
stay closed in the driven division. Competition and modified cars
have no deductions for authenticity. For unrestored original cars,
authentic modern replacement parts result in the same deduction as
if they were nonauthentic, except for certain expendable items
such as tires, belts, plugs, filters, etc. (Many people feel that the
ill-defined nature of “expendable” is a mine field of problems
just waiting to happen.)
Judging is in five areas: mechanical, engine compartment, exterior,
boot, interior. Each of the last 4 is judged on various aspects of cleanliness,
condition and authenticity. The scoresheets serve mainly to remind
the judges of what to look for and to standardize how the points
are allocated to each area. The mechanical component checks that
the lights, wipers, and horn all work. The cars don’t have to be
started for the judges because there is a requirement that they
be driven into position. (We had a guy start his car because it
was the only way to get enough power to light the lights sufficiently
to be seen – it blew oil onto the pants of the judge who was
trying to check the tail lights!)
Chip