[concours] Restoration or Rebuild?

Concours
1

The following is meant as a discucussion around the topic of the
point of concours, rather than a right or wrong approach, but…

These cars are now approaching an age in their life which due to
their value, means that what may have previously been a maintenance
schedule is now often to be addressed by a complete rebuild, as
they are simply too valuable to scrap. This is at a time when the
stock of original parts is running down and non-oem parts are
replacing them. Often such a rebuild leaves the car in arguably a
better (but certainly different) state than that when it first left
the factory.

It must be axiomatic that if you can tell that the car has been
restored, then it isn’t a good restoration - it’s something else.

Given that there is published guidance as to what is expected of a
concours car, where and how do these ‘‘over-restored’’ cars fit in?

I forsee a growing dilema because more cars are rebuilt with
reproduction parts and original survivors will dwindle as time
progresses.

Your ((if possible) balanced) views please.

kind regards
Marek–
MarekH
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2

In reply to a message from MarekH sent Thu 21 Jul 2011:

I think much modification is done becuase owners would rather treat
the symtoms of problems rather than the cause.

So if a car overheats, it’s more satisfying to see something new
like and extra electric fan, rather that cleaning out teh block,
having gas analyser check the mixture or have a distributor rebuild.

Or it seems better bang for you buck to see shiny new disc brakes
behind the wires than do say a front end rebuild which doesn’t
produce anything to look at.

We are now reaching a time when even cars like E types and Mk IIs
have a technology that is becoming nmore unfamiliar to mechanics
more used to checking a computer.

And so it seems natural to them to think that whet they are used
to is the obvious way to fix something.

And if entering a concours many of the judges think that if the
panel fit isn’t as good as a modern computer engineeered car, then
it can’t be original.–
The original message included these comments:

The following is meant as a discucussion around the topic of the
point of concours, rather than a right or wrong approach, but…
These cars are now approaching an age in their life which due to
their value, means that what may have previously been a maintenance
schedule is now often to be addressed by a complete rebuild, as
they are simply too valuable to scrap. This is at a time when the
stock of original parts is running down and non-oem parts are
replacing them. Often such a rebuild leaves the car in arguably a
better (but certainly different) state than that when it first left
the factory.
It must be axiomatic that if you can tell that the car has been

–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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3

In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Mon 25 Jul 2011:

Ed,
I think your are missing the point. I am questioning whether the
concours rules now result in an obvious bias towards people who pay
USD100,000 for a ‘‘restoration’’, when the car they get back is now
obviously better than the original ever was when it came out of the
factory. The resulting cars are very unoriginal (yet prize winning)
because they have been rebuilt not restored and the little guy who
actually does have a more original car (but smaller wallet) loses
out.

I personally have no interest in concours, but I do think it would
be beneficial if more people could get something out of it.

kind regards
Marek–
MarekH
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4

Ed,
I think your are missing the point. I am questioning whether the
concours rules now result in an obvious bias towards people who pay
USD100,000 for a ‘‘restoration’’, when the car they get back is now
obviously better than the original ever was when it came out of the
factory.

I see no harm in restoring a car to better-than-new standards. If it has
been reassembled with more care, has fewer paint runs, better fitting trim,
etc. I view all of that as “good”. It’s difficult to intentionally
downgrade your work just so the car can truly be as it was when it rolled
off the assembly line although, in some cases, people actually do so.

The resulting cars are very unoriginal (yet prize winning)
because they have been rebuilt not restored and the little guy who
actually does have a more original car (but smaller wallet) loses
out.

I fear we’re getting into automotive semantics here. The words “rebuilt” and
“restoration” mean different things to different people.
But there’s no doubt that an “original” car will be UNrestored. Most,
possibly all, sanctioning bodies have specific categories for unrestored,
original cars. The point of these “survivor” classes is to preserve the
automobile in original, UNrestored condition.

A person can restore a car to any level he likes, even if it means
better-than-new. Or not. If a person elects to restore a car to “same as
new” standards he won’t necessarily be spending less money. A painter isn’t
likely to charge any less for leaving a few bare spots in the fenderwells
and the engine shop probably won’t charge less for being sloppy with the
gasket glue or adding a few scuff marks to the painted parts. In some
circles duplication of “factory sloppiness” is essential and is almost a
form of art.

If a person elects to restore his car for concours competition he’ll likely
find that different sanctioning bodies, and even groups within a body, have
different attitudes and policies about over restoration. JCNA, broadly
speaking, is flexible on the subject. Your car must have the correct cam
covers, for instance, but if you’ve polished them to a higher gloss than
Jaguar did…no points are deducted.

I should add that having correct cam covers doesn’t mean having original
cam covers. They may have come off a different car and therefore not
“original” to your car.

Sorry…I’m rambling.

I personally have no interest in concours,

I sense that.

but I do think it would
be beneficial if more people could get something out of it.

Anyone can “get something out of it”. Concours is great fun even for an
average hobbyist on a budget.

Cheers
Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJRFrom: “MarekH” jl@dognextdoor.com

5

In reply to a message from MarekH sent Tue 26 Jul 2011:

Marek

It’s a very complex issue and ends up coming down to an owner’s
value judgement

I personally don’t like to see a car ’ modified’ to improve it

I can understand necessary hidden mods, replacing alloy conrods
with steel etc
I’m less sure about chassis that have a better paint job than the
body did originally

I don’t like the’ chrome everything in sight’ syndrome and polish
every brass part. Replace any Rexine with leather because it’s
more ‘luxurious’ but not better in application.

Many of the cars at Pebble Beach are shockers , They do little to
encourage accurate preservation or restoration but often look like
a rap singers heaven of bling.

Fair enough , it’s the owners prerogerative but, as last year
they waffle on about a car being a no expense restoration carried
out by a craftsman brought back from cryogenic preservation just
for that job.

So we had a coachbuilt bodied SS Jaguar touted as the greatest
restoration since Lazarus, but having been ‘’ Buggatified with
Marchal head lamps , a Bugatti blue paint job, chrome wires, and
bearing a but fleeting resemblance to the original.

In my experience a $100,000 restoration is one done to a strict
budget.–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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6

Ed,
With all due respect, I disagree with your comment regarding the Pebble Beach Concours doing little to promote accurate restoration. I have been fortunate to attend the show for the last 9 years (as a volunteer worker), and while it is true that a huge amount of money is spent on those cars, they are not to be compared with a typical show full of "over restored " cars. I have yet to see a car which I thought was over restored, and I am sensitive to that.

One complaint I have had since they started the preservation class is that the rules seem to be “the dirtier the better”. I have seen marvelous old Benz’s for instance, flown in from Germany with a thick coating of dirt . A few years ago, a gentleman who was the original owner, drove in with a Shelby Cobra which was incredibly dirty, and the seats were even held together with duct tape. The engine was a huge lump of grease. I woud have thouht at least washing would have been better!
Mike Moore
S1 OTS, TR3On Jul 27, 2011, at 4:33 AM, Ed Nantes wrote:

In reply to a message from MarekH sent Tue 26 Jul 2011:

Marek

It’s a very complex issue and ends up coming down to an owner’s
value judgement

I personally don’t like to see a car ’ modified’ to improve it

I can understand necessary hidden mods, replacing alloy conrods
with steel etc
I’m less sure about chassis that have a better paint job than the
body did originally

I don’t like the’ chrome everything in sight’ syndrome and polish
every brass part. Replace any Rexine with leather because it’s
more ‘luxurious’ but not better in application.

Many of the cars at Pebble Beach are shockers , They do little to
encourage accurate preservation or restoration but often look like
a rap singers heaven of bling.

Fair enough , it’s the owners prerogerative but, as last year
they waffle on about a car being a no expense restoration carried
out by a craftsman brought back from cryogenic preservation just
for that job.

So we had a coachbuilt bodied SS Jaguar touted as the greatest
restoration since Lazarus, but having been ‘’ Buggatified with
Marchal head lamps , a Bugatti blue paint job, chrome wires, and
bearing a but fleeting resemblance to the original.

In my experience a $100,000 restoration is one done to a strict
budget.

Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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7

Agreed on the dirt thing.

IMHO a car should be preserved in the best possible condition, not the
worst. Preserve the car, not the dirt :slight_smile:

Cheers
Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

One complaint I have had since they started the preservation class is that
the rules seem to be “the dirtier the better”. I have seen marvelous old
Benz’s for instance, flown in from Germany with a thick coating of dirt . A
few years ago, a gentleman who was the original owner, drove in with a
Shelby Cobra which was incredibly dirty, and the seats were even held
together with duct tape. The engine was a huge lump of grease. I woud have
thouht at least washing would have been better!From: “Michael Moore” mmoore8425@aol.com

8

I once owned an SWB XJ6 S1 which had been owned by a college professor. He had not spent a huge amount of money on the car. Part of the front seats had been repaneled with leather his wife had sewn in to replace old panels with holes in them.

The paint job may have been an Earl Schieb or Maaco paint job, but he had apparently done a terrific amount of careful masking,even in the trunk.
His shop manual was filled with detailed notes expanding on some aspect of maintenance. I was amazed each time I got into doing something on that car, the correct hardware stack-up was always there (stud, flat washer, internal star washer, nut ) etc. The man had been meticulous in all he did without spending exorbitant amounts of money.
I respected that car more than a car which had been restored for big bucks by a professional, because of its subtle testimony about the kind of person who had its owned it.
Mike MooreOn Jul 27, 2011, at 6:50 AM, Doug Dwyer wrote:

Agreed on the dirt thing.

IMHO a car should be preserved in the best possible condition, not the worst. Preserve the car, not the dirt :slight_smile:

Cheers
Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

From: “Michael Moore” <@MMoore8425>
One complaint I have had since they started the preservation class is that the rules seem to be “the dirtier the better”. I have seen marvelous old Benz’s for instance, flown in from Germany with a thick coating of dirt . A few years ago, a gentleman who was the original owner, drove in with a Shelby Cobra which was incredibly dirty, and the seats were even held together with duct tape. The engine was a huge lump of grease. I woud have thouht at least washing would have been better!

9

In reply to a message from Michael Moore sent Wed 27 Jul 2011:

It’s always nice to see evidence of careful, thoughtful work. Ask
anyone, DIYer or professional, and they’ll all agree that ‘‘the last
5%’’ is always the most difficult. By that I mean making sure all
the final, minor details are correctly tended to…whether it’s a
ordinary repair job or a full blown resto. Your hardware ‘stack’ is
a good example because incorrect, mis-matched, and missing
fasteners are always a bugaboo.

I don’t respect or appreciate careful work any less if the car was
professionally restored versus merely repaired by a detail-oriented
DIYer. Good work is good work.

Cheers
DD–
The original message included these comments:

I respected that car more than a car which had been restored for big bucks by a professional, because of its subtle testimony about the kind of person who had its owned it.

–
Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington, United States
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10

In reply to a message from Michael Moore sent Wed 27 Jul 2011:

With the emphasis on rare coachbuilt car there’s not going to be
much speialised knowledge amongst the judges.

I recall a UK mag showing a car entered at Pebble compared with
the same car as built

It was a flamboyant car to start, but much extra chrome trim had
been added.

An SS1 resorted here for a Japanese owner went there with copper
plated brake drums and chrome wheels and won a prize.

Many great cars only end up as what we are klead to believe they
were or their owners want them to be

I stand by my comments about the coachbuilt SS last year.

Check its [ auction] pics against originals when new.

Unfortunately the prestige of it encourages this sort of behavour.–
The original message included these comments:

Ed,
With all due respect, I disagree with your comment regarding the Pebble Beach Concours doing little to promote accurate restoration. I have been fortunate to attend the show for the last 9 years (as a volunteer worker), and while it is true that a huge amount of money is spent on those cars, they are not to be compared with a typical show full of ''over restored ‘’ cars. I have yet to see a car which I thought was over restored, and I am sensitive to that.

–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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11

In reply to a message from MarekH sent Thu 21 Jul 2011:

I’m new to this forum, I have had Jags for 40 years. A Concours
Judge. I do agree cars in many cases are over restored, incorrect
finishes on parts, over finished wood on the dashes ( my pet peeve)
which almost resemble plastic, and the subtle changes in the
appearace of replacemnt parts. JCNA has acknowleged the problem
of replacement parts and in most cases no deduction is made,
however incorrect finishes on parts like plating the oval washers
on the underside of an E tyle hood is a no,no and deductable.
Personally I look for cleanliness first, I expect wear, some flaws
which are inharent in assembly production, these are what the
deductions are for. But for ther most part there is no deduction
for doing a better job than the factory in putting together the
car.
Myself,I do show my Jags, at least the ones running, but I am
moving away from Concours compition as they are getting older and I
am more intereted in driving them.–
65 MKII, 66 3.8S, 67 XKE, 76 XJ6C
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12

That’s why JCNA has the “Driven” class.
Please delete all names and email addresses from this message if you plan to
forward it.
Please use Bcc; for any and ALL emails INSTEAD of Cc: or To:
If you keep our information private, we might be able to cut down on
computer identity theft.----- Original Message -----
From: “jagarra” luvewe@att.net
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: [concours] Restoration or Rebuild?

In reply to a message from MarekH sent Thu 21 Jul 2011:

I’m new to this forum, I have had Jags for 40 years. A Concours
Judge. I do agree cars in many cases are over restored, incorrect
finishes on parts, over finished wood on the dashes ( my pet peeve)
which almost resemble plastic, and the subtle changes in the
appearace of replacemnt parts. JCNA has acknowleged the problem
of replacement parts and in most cases no deduction is made,
however incorrect finishes on parts like plating the oval washers
on the underside of an E tyle hood is a no,no and deductable.
Personally I look for cleanliness first, I expect wear, some flaws
which are inharent in assembly production, these are what the
deductions are for. But for ther most part there is no deduction
for doing a better job than the factory in putting together the
car.
Myself,I do show my Jags, at least the ones running, but I am
moving away from Concours compition as they are getting older and I
am more intereted in driving them.

65 MKII, 66 3.8S, 67 XKE, 76 XJ6C
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13

In reply to a message from Len Wheeler sent Mon 12 Sep 2011:

Concours events serve several useful functions, as far as
I’m concerned:

1)Celebrate the history and development of the motor car in
all its phases, including racing.

2)Encourage owners to care for and keep their vehicles
rather than send them to the breakers and wreckers.

3)Stimulate a healthy competitive spirit in showing just how
beautiful and clean a car can be. Or show how much work it
would be to make them that way.

4)Showing off the motor cars to the public so folks can
enjoy them and (hopefully) develop future exhibitors tempted
to become owners and restorers themselves.

  1. Having a party. :smiley:

As for the rest, such as judging on originality,
un-restored, restoration, ‘‘driver’’ categories, modification,
etc., it’s all good. Just as long as these categories are
spelled out and fairly compared.

I love to see gorgeous and rare cars, and also appreciate
the care shown by ‘‘drivers’’ who use their cars often and
keep them alive (like me).
Unless the vehicle condition has some special significance,
such as a notable race event, I see no reason to praise
dirt. Some can be forgiven for those vehicles driven on the
street, but I would think a natural sorting process takes
place here.–
XJS coupe 1986 V-12, California
Santa Cruz, California, United States
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