1970 Series II OTS with high torque starter
Hi fellow Jagsters
Got unusual starter problem. The starter motor is working fine. I disassembled the original 22RA starter relay and cleaned. It seems like the points are working OK but not 100% sure. I had a Jag buddy over and he diagnosed it to be a bad ignition switch. I ordered a wired ignition switch from SNG and wired it up this a.m. The starter engages and turns the motor over but it won’t start until I release the pressure on the starter key. If I hold it it the start position and let it spin the engine does not start until I release the key. I want to correct this before Prince " L" leaves me to push starting it on the side of the road. Thanks for any wisdom. Much appreciated.
Jack
The symptoms you describe are typical of what happens when you are using some form of electronic ignition (eg Pertronix). The starter motor draws so much current from the battery when cranking that it pulls down the battery voltage to below the level that the electronic ignition system can operate, so the engine doesn’t fire. When you release the key to stop cranking, the battery voltage recovers, and if the engine is still spinning, the electronic ignition now has enough voltage to cause the engine to fire. This was even somewhat of an issue with points/condensor ignition back in the day, which caused Jaguar to modify the ignition system to use a lower resistance ignition coil and external ballast resistor combination. If your car has a serial number beyond 1R11052, it will have had this “ballasted ignition” system, with a starter relay with W1,W2,C1,C2, and C4 connections mounted on the engine bay side of the firewall. The ballasted ignition system works by having a 1.5ohm ignition coil in series with an external 1.5 ohm ballast resistor during normal running (so a combined primary resistance of 3ohms). During cranking, the starter relay causes the ballast resistor to be bypassed, so the 1.5 ohm ignition coil gets the full battery voltage which is less than 12v due to the load of the starter motor, but still plenty to work the ignition. As soon as the cranking stops (when the starter relay drops out), the ballast resistor is re-introduced to the circuit to prevent overloading the low resistance coil.
Unfortunately, most problems in this area are as a result of owners “upgrading” (ie messing with) the system, so to diagnose and correct your problem you need to know what you’ve got. Please let us know (a) what ignition system you are using - original points/condensor, Pertronix module in original Lucas distributor, Pertronix distributor, 123 distributor, Mallory… (b) if you have a ballast resistor in place - mounted on the picture frame next to the coil (c) how the starter relay is wired. Oh, and confirm the location of your starter relay and the Lucas number stamped on the side - should be something like 33231 - the 22RA number only identifies the relay family, not the relay type (as I’m sure I’ve said before…)
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In addition to what David said, some S2 ignition switches have an accesory position that will turn off while cranking.
If you have your ignition wired to that circuit you may have the problem you describe.
Tom
Hi David & Tom
I have the Pertronix module in the distributor. I’ve had this same system for 5 or 6 years with no probs. I’m also using the Flame Thrower coil and a one wire GM alternator. The electronic component under the heater box was unhooked when we changed alternators… Maybe I should spend the bucks and order a new Lucas 22 RA starter relay from the U.K. This one has been in there forever. I keep suspecting that opening my current relay and cleaning the points may not have been enough.I certainly appreciate the input. Jack
David my VIN # is 1R11831. The starter relay is mounted on the passenger side of the firewall next to the windshield washer bottle thank you
David I just got home. I do have the white ballast next to my coil. Thanks
This is what I was thinking also. Check you still have 12v going to the coil while cranking.
David,
You taught me…I am on it…THANK YOU
MITCH
Guys I’m going to try all these suggestions today and report back. Thank you Jack
Tom I don’t have 12V going to the coil when cranking it ??? When the car is idling and checking the starter relay the center spade connector is the only one lighting my tester. Is this the norm?
thank you Jack
Jack, as David said, you really need to determine what you have on your car. This area has often been rewired, changed, etc. This should be how your car was originally:
Not knowing what relay you have, I would not want to identify the posts by position. Are the terminals marked?
Do you have any voltage at the coil+ when cranking? You should have some, as the ballast resistor should be in play. And even if the relay is working, it will be battery cranking volts which will be slightly below at rest volts. A specific voltage reading of the coil + and the battery while cranking would be helpful.
Try to provide some more information.
Tom
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Jack,
From your comment it seems that you are using some form of testing probe, and not a multimeter in voltage mode for your investigation. I don’t think that this will be very fruitful as it may not register for voltages significantly less than 12v. Please measure the voltage at the + terminal of the coil (a) when the ignition is turned on, but before you try to crank it (b) when the engine is cranking but not firing, and (c) when the engine is running.
With regards to your measurements at the relay when the engine is idling: the C2 terminal (probably the one in the center of your relay - please identify this relay for us by the 5 digit number stamped on the side such as 3xxxx, not the 22RA family designation) will have 12v at all times the ignition is ON. If the wiring is as originally supplied by the factory, C1 will have around 6v when idling - a lighted test probe may not light at this level. None of the other terminals would have power when the engine is running.
For others following this thread and trying to help you should be aware that Jack started another thread concerning the relay a few days ago that may contain pertinent information not presented here: Starter Relay driving me to adult beverages!
The fact that the engine used to start properly for an extended period and now it doesn’t is a key piece of information. Has anything changed? If not, it may simply be a case that your battery is now a little weak and unable to supply sufficient voltage to the Pertronix when under cranking loads. Increased resistance in the starter connection due to corrosion could also have the same effect. However, at this point of the investigation I would focus on getting the requested voltage measurements and trying to determine exactly how your ignition is wired, as it’s quite possible/likely that whoever added the Pertronix made changes from the Jaguar wiring diagram.
-David
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David & Tom
with the ignition switch turned on the meter voltage at the positive terminal on the coil is 7.9 volts
I have a battery tester and the car battery is reading 12.2 with nothing turned on.
The number on the side of the 22RA starter relay is 33336F. I hope this helps, All the components on the car have been unchanged and working properly for the last 3 or 4 years.
The Pertronix module has been in place for about 5 years. I just went out one morning, turned the key, and had zero response. I was actually just so happy it was not the actual starter motor. I lost a pint of “O” positive the last time I changed the starter. Any light you can shine is much appreciated. I keep trying to blame the relay and I’m reluctant to change to another model number relay. Thank you Jack
I presume that this is with the engine not cranking or running - ie test (a) from my previous post. If so, that indicates that the ballast resistor is in the circuit as it should be, and dropping the voltage to the coil. Now you need to repeat the measurement (b) when cranking, and (c) with the engine running. If correctly wired, I would expect (b) to be more than 7.9v, but probably less than 12v - because the ballast resistor should be bypassed and supplying full battery voltage to the coil, but the cranking load will reduce the battery voltage somewhat - say to around 10v. I would expect (c) to be a down below (b) but a little higher than 7.9v as the alternator will now be charging the battery, so battery voltage will be higher, but the ballast resistor will no longer be bypassed.
Frankly, that is low - I’d expect a healthy battery to read 12.5-12.6 off load. This may be the cause of your problem, as when cranking the battery voltage (even with the ballast bypassed) may be too low for the Pertronix.
I really doubt that it is the relay, but test (b) should help narrow it down.
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Tom & David. while cranking the car and hooked to the positive side of the coil (but not starting) the meter is bouncing all over the place with a high of approx 8 volts. With the car started and running I’m getting a constant 10 volts Thanks Jack
Jack, the positive side of the coil should be fairly constant, not wild swings. Did you also check the battery voltage while cranking to be sure it is fairly constant? If so, then it seems you have an issue between the battery and the coil+ while cranking, which does include the relay.
So,
- Again, check battery volts while cranking. Should be fairly constant and over 10 volts.
- Check voltage at C2. Should be over 10 volts while cranking. If not trace out wire from C2 back to the battery+. I believe it may be the positive standoff near the battery.
- Check voltage at C1. Should be over 10 volts while cranking. If not, check if relay is energized. If so, faulty relay. If not energized, need to trace from W1 back to key switch. Is the relay clicking?
- If C1 voltage over 10 volts, trace out wire from C1 to Coil+.
Tom
Thanks Tom I’ll work on this
If the battery was a little suspect then it might exhibit swings as the starter comes up and struggles against compression?
Yes, I would tend to agree which is why I said “fairly” constant. But if the battery is too marginal, it will not maintain 10 volts or better.
Tom
My wife just bought a brand new battery for her AH “bugeye”. I’m going to try it on the E tomorrow and maybe eliminate the weak battery thought. I’ve just got to remember to put it back positive ground1