Can anyone refer me to a door lock trouble shooting guide for series 3 ? I have tried to find such things on this new site but cannot. I have read several manuals but am still confused where to find the door lock relay (relays?) and hidden inline fuse (protection thermal device?)
OOring,
The Jaguar Series III XJ6 S57 Electrical Guide has great information on the electrical components in the car, where they are located, where the connectors are, where all the relays are, all the wires and their colors. I purchased my hard copy on eBay but others have posted recently about an online source where it can be downloaded. Just search the archives for āS57 Electrical Guideā.
The Jag-Lovers archives is probably a good place to search for posts from others over the past 20 years or so about door lock problems. Your 1986 would have the newer Kiekert motorized locks instead of the earlier solenoids.
You donāt mention the problem you are having, but the usual remedy for lazy or inoperative door locks is to remove the door panels, clean and lubricate the mechanical linkages of the old hardened grease, and lubricate the linkages with new grease. That has always worked for me.
Paul
1 Like
Thank you Paul for your recommendation of the Guide. my locks and all linkages have been gone thru, cleaned and greased some several years ago. They all worked fine till one dayā¦nothing; no response from the drivers door key except to mechanically open the driver door. I have the trim panel off and the door switch out but do not know yet how to test it to see if that is the problem. Iāll also check the old site archives as you suggest.
O0ring,
Also check the XJ Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) on the old Jag-Lovers.org website. Seems to me there were some FAQs about the Kiekert door locks burning out, but I could be wrong about that.
Paul
Since yours in an '86 with the Kiekert system, as Paul pointed out, you wonāt have the lock relays.
And youāll probably have an inline fuse rather than a circuit breaker, likely in the area of the RH fuse box (Iām a little foggy on that) on brown and brown/blue wires.
Cheers
DD
**
You have the Kiekert motors, as Paul says - no relays, no thermal fusesā¦
First step; access Auxiliary fuse box on passenger side. There is either an inline fuse (dig around) or fuse #14 5A
ā¦change fuse and test locking. However; while the manual says a 5A fuse - check the value of the fuse you removed. Methinks that rating is too low - replace like with likeā¦
Warning; if some, but not all, of the locks, door or boot, operate and one or more fails; do NOT(!) proceed without further checks. The control unit, in the driverās door, may have failed - it should normally give a brief(!) burst of power to the motorsā¦
If failing; the control unit may send a too long pulse, causing the fuse to blow - and may burn out one or more motors. If fuse is then replaced motors may burn out in turn - expensiveā¦
If the replaced fuse holds and all locks operates normally - keep an eye on the situation.
If replacing the fuse makes no difference - you need to test the control unit. To be explained if requiredā¦
Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
**
1 Like
I have resolved the problem with much appreciated help; I incorrectly assumed that the manual was correct that power mirrors and the door locks were on the same fuse. Actually the locks were on a single in line fuse which was blown. Even so something did happen to blow the left rear door Kiekert door motor so I will need one of those. Everything else does work again on the locks.
Thanks
Scott Roskam
I did reset the adjustment on the control unit to insure the neutral spot was in the correct location centered with the key lever so I hope no more motors will be affected.
Scott,
What manual were you using?
Paul
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I still think you should verify proper control unit function, Scottā¦
While a motor may fail and cause the fuse to blow; a faulty control unit may power the motors for too long, causing both a blown fuse and a motor burn-out. With a repeat of a long pulse; with only 4 motors the current flow is lower delaying fuse blowing - and another motor may burn outā¦and anotherā¦
As a minimum; when locking/unlocking - check that all remaining locks have operatedā¦
To check control unit; remove drivers side A-pillar panel to access connections. You will find a connector with an orange/green and orange/red wires. Disconnect and connect a test lamp across the door side connector and operate the lock. The lamp should light for approximately 2 secondsā¦
An off-centre control unit will not in itself cause motor failure or blow fuses. It will only fail to either lock or unlock the doors - or to lock the bootā¦
Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
**
I recently joined the forum having acquired an ex Japan 1991 Daimler Double Six Series 3 and was looking through posts relating to central locking when I came across this one. I too had a problem with the central locking whereby the drivers door lock only operated the lock on that door. I checked out the pulse from the motor as Frank suggested and the lamp lit for around 1 second, certainly not longer. As that seemed to be OK I tested all four motors (three door and one boot) and found that all had failed. The left rear door handle and lock were a little stiff but freed up up easily with a little operation and lubrication. All other door locks and handles operated freely.
I found replacement motors and tested their operation before fitting them and then tested their operation in the doors. I found that they all worked as they should when using the drivers door key, locking and unlocking (including the boot which the manual says will only lock) perfectly. However, that only lasted a few days and then I think one failed (I canāt be certain it was only one, but I only noticed one to start with) and then the rest failed. I checked the fuse and that was OK and have checked the pulse from the drivers door again and that remains brief, but none of the motors operate. I have checked the boot motor and that has failed so I suspect the others have as well (not had the chance to check yet).
I opened two of the original failed motors to see if I could establish the cause. One was very stiff, suggesting it had seized, but that could have been from lack of use after it failed. The other one was free but the motor winding looked burnt.
I can see exactly what Frank is saying and agree that it all makes sense, but when my drivers door motor only sends a brief pulse, I am at a loss to understand what the problem is. Any help would be greatly appreciated and I apologise for resurrecting this old post, but it seemed a good place to start.
Thanks,
Paul
To clarify, Paul there is no āmotorā in the drives door, only a ācontrol moduleā - which looks like a motorā¦
Providing you tested the ālight-upā time correctly - ā1 secondā should be enough, and safeguard the motors against burn-out.
Questions; is there no reaction sign/sound on any doors then using the door key, either lock or unlock? And no reaction if you use the driverās door inside lock/unlock flap either to lock or unlock? If one direction work and the other do not, it is a control module issue, of courseā¦
As the motors (all of them?) operated for a time after installation it is not likely that the door mechanisms are too stiff - and sounds will again indicate if the motors are getting power.
Otherwise, the first step is to use the test lamp again to verify control module operation. Itās not usually temperamental, but rechecking is advisable - a failed control module explains the lot. One factor here is that the power output of the module is insufficient - the (small) test lamp will light up with low current. You may use a headlamp, with much higher current draw, as test lamp to verify output - it will light up fully only with high currentā¦
And of course, again recheck/replace the fuse before using the test lamp - but any light implies that the fuse is intact. The combined motors draws some 6 - 8A (I āthinkā)
I have no immediate answer, Iām equally at a loss - the crucial point is that the brief pules cannot burn out the motors. And if 4 are working and one burns out; the fuse will blow - unlus replaced by a nailā¦
Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
Thank you for this Frank. I have not had the chance to do anything more yet as I was otherwise engaged this weekend but to answer your questions, there is no sound or reaction from any of the door motors that I can hear when operating with the door key or the interior flap in either direction. I have tested, but will do so again, the output from the driverās door and the feed to each door motor and found everything in order. I also powered the old failed motors off the car and, unsurprisingly, they made no noise at all when powered up. The same is true of the replacement boot motor, the only one I have had the chance to test, which is why I think they have all failed again. Mind you, when I tested the replacements prior to fitting to the car, they made very little noise, but they did work.
I have not found an in line fuse but the fact that there is output from the supply cable to the motor suggests that, if there is a fuse, it is intact.
I will try the higher wattage bulb and see what transpires. The relevant fuse in the left hand auxiliary fuse box (RHD car) is 15amp so is unlikely to blow without some serious current draw.
Still some investigative work to be done but I am wondering if it is simply a case of 30+ year old motors being too old to function as they should. The cars were built down to a price in period and were never supposed to last this long.
I will report back as soon as I have had a chance to investigate furtherā¦
Paul
[quote=āPaule, post:14, topic:379989, full:trueā]
ā¦there is no sound or reaction from any of the door motors that I can hear when operating with the door key or the interior flap in either direction.
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While the driverās door flap operates the central locking, Paule; the flaps generally is a tell-tale on whether the doors are locked or unlocked. As such they should all be in the same position - either fully forward or rearwards.
Important(!) when retesting; if the motors do not operate, flaps do not change - move all(!) flaps to the opposite position, and use the door key.
Reason; if, for some reason, the central locking does not respond it may because it can only lock or unlock, not both - a sort of one way response. If it is then ālockedā there is no response as the doors are already locked - and it is unable unlock, again no responseā¦
The usual cause is that the driverās door control unit is out of adjustment. The control unit must then be accessed, mounting bolts loosened and the unit moved forwards or backwards - then re-tightened and retested. Nominally, with the original Kiekert motors, midpoint should be about rightā¦
The other doors only lock and unlock their respective doors, of course, but if one door motor fails it will show up by flap positions. It is conceivable that any and all motors are similarly out of adjustment - but the throw of the Kiekert is usually long enough to tolerate some maladjustment.
Where did you get the replacements? As you tested them, they should be OK - if they worked when tested, they should continue to work when fitted. The āonlyā reason for burnout is prolonged power pulse due to control unit failure - but failure to operate may have a variety of causesā¦
An inline fuse (15A) were fitted on later models, accessible by opening the aux fuel panel on the glove box - I āthinkā, but may be at the aux fuse box itselfā¦
The motors are versed by reversing the polarity from the control unit. This does not show up with the test lamp connected between the orange/red and orange/green - but will show up with the test lamp connected between either and groundā¦
Soā¦?
Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
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Thank you Frank. I had thought about the one way response and you have confirmed my thoughts, but to expand on this a little further, I assume that using the key in the lock effectively makes a connection to send a positive charge down one wire or the other from the control unit. If you turn the key to lock, the charge goes down one wire and when you turn it to unlock it goes down the other wire. I have tested the output from the unit on the orange/green and orange/red wires and found it to be 12v on one or the other when locking and unlocking using the key so think this confirms that theory, although I may be simplifying it a little.
The point is that, if using the key, regardless of which position the flaps are in motor will operate when you either lock or unlock, provided you try both. If the motor is in the locked position and you use the key to lock, nothing will happen on the motor as it is already in the locked position, but if you unlock on the key it will operate. You can, as you say, move all the flaps to the same position manually, but I am not sure that you have to do this. I will try it though to see if it makes any difference.
The replacement motors were obtained from a reliable second hand supplier/breaker and we both tested them all several times prior to fitment. They all worked off the car and when fitted to the car initially, only failing after several operations.
I have checked the fuse in the auxiliary fuse box under the passenger side dash/glove box and it is 15A, as you say. It is still the original Lucas fuse and is intact, but has got hot at some point as the paper inside the glass showing the amperage is brown in one place and has burnt through very slightly. To me this implies that there was an increased momentary current draw, perhaps when the left rear door lock became stiff.
Last night I removed the boot lock motor and tested it by powering it up from a 12v supply, reversing polarity to make sure I tested both ways. It did not move or make any noise at all so it seems the motor has failed. I did not break it open to check if it was burnt out or had just failed for some other reason, but might do so later. I then tested the supply from the control unit to the boot and found that was satisfactory.
I have some different motors that look similar to ones currently available and they provide a far more positive response when powered up so I will try one of those in the boot to start with. Interestingly, although these newer motors (the test date on them is 12/95, so some while after the Series 3 was discontinued) were mounted on Series 3 brackets, the boot motor at least does not fit well in the space and the operating arm fouls on the inside of the vertical boot panel so I am having to make an alternative bracket. I suspect that these motors were installed as replacements for the originals at some time in the carās life and were never actually a Jaguar fitment.
Iāll let you know how I get on, but it wonāt be a for a few days as I have other commitments this week.
Paul
[quote=āPaule, post:16, topic:379989, full:trueā]
I assume that using the key in the lock effectively makes a connection to send a positive charge down one wire or the other from the control unit.
[unqoute]
To clarify, Paule; turning the key operates a rod that physically locks and unlocks the door mechanism. Two rods are connected to the door lock mechanism and is moved by its movement. One rods goes to inside flap moving it in sync with key motion. But there is no motor in the driverās door - only the control unitā¦
The other rod goes to the control unit and move it according to key motion. The motion switches the control unit to deliver ā+ā on one wire and ground on the other. Ie, power goes to one wire on the motors - the second motor wires are grounded in the control unit. Iaw, the control unit both powers and grounds the motors - so your āsimplifiedā observations are fair enoughā¦
**
[quote]
The point is that, if using the key, regardless of which position the flaps are in motor will operate when you either lock or unlock, provided you try both.
[unquote]
The key does not operate a motor; it indirectly moves a rod to operate the control unit in the driverās door. Which is a sort of āswitchā, requiring enough movement in both direction to trigger switching. When switching it briefly (couple of second) connects āmainsā power to the door (and boot) motors. With insufficient throw (usually maladjustment) in one direction the switch wonāt switch both ways.
**
[Quote
You can, as you say, move all the flaps to the same position manually, but I am not sure that you have to do this. I will try it though to see if it makes any difference.
[Unquote]
The point of this is really to use the flaps as indicators - showing if door motors are moving mechanisms enough, or eventual single motor failure And to reveal if the control unit is delivering power in both directionsā¦
However, you reading power alternatively on both orange/green and orange/red when operating the key, implies that the control unit does thatā¦
Failure of motor(s) to operate may be insufficient power pulse, too stiff door mechanisms and of course failed motorsā¦
**
[quote]
The replacement motors were obtained from a reliable second hand supplier/breaker and we both tested them all several times prior to fitment. They all worked off the car and when fitted to the car initially, only failing after several operations.
[Unquote]
Are these original Kiekert motors? In any case; if they worked when tested, there is no particular reason for them to fail in operation. Burnout can only occur if the power pulse is too long due to a failed control unit. The pulse is by design long enough for a full throw of the motors, but too short to burn motors. Burnout can principally only happen with sustained power to a stalled motor. Though, of course ,any motor may burn out by internal faultsā¦
**
Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
To proceed:
It is still the original Lucas fuse and is intact, but has got hot at some point as the paper inside the glass showing the amperage is brown in one place and has burnt through very slightly. To me this implies that there was an increased momentary current draw, perhaps when the left rear door lock became stiff.
[Unquote]
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Stiffness may cause higher current; a stalled motor draws about twice the current of a turning one - though the current flow only lasts as long as directed by the control unit.
The fuse will blow at 15A, and the 5 motors draws less than that - though if enough motors stall, the fuse will blow.
A problem arises if the pulse is too long; a motor (the āweakest linkā) may then burn out before the fuse blows. As a burnt out motor is usually ābreakā; with just replacing the blown fuse the process is repeated, and the next motor may burn out before the fuse blows. And ultimately all motors will burn outā¦
Ie, if the fuse blows the output from the control unit should be tested before the fuse is replaced. And indeed; checking the flap positions will reveal if a motor hasnāt operated - as will checking if doors are actually locked or unlocked, of courseā¦
**
[Quote]
Last night I removed the boot lock motor and tested it by powering it up from a 12v supply, reversing polarity to make sure I tested both ways. It did not move or make any noise at all so it seems the motor has failed.
[Unquote]
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Just ohm through the motor, likely showing ābreakā - though if it doesnāt operate it is of course uselessā¦
**
[Quote]
I have some different motors that look similar to ones currently available and they provide a far more positive response when powered up so I will try one of those in the boot to start with. Interestingly, although these newer motors (the test date on them is 12/95, so some while after the Series 3 was discontinued) were mounted on Series 3 brackets, the boot motor at least does not fit well in the space and the operating arm fouls on the inside of the vertical boot panel so I am having to make an alternative bracket. I suspect that these motors were installed as replacements for the originals at some time in the carās life and were never actually a Jaguar fitment.
[Unqote]
The xj40 used the identical Kiekert set-up - the only difference being the control unit. Which is prepared for remote locking/unlocking and therefore includes a motor - within the same shape and size as the plain control unit, but with more wiresā¦
While I installed some aftermarket motors, I used a xj40 unit for the boot. In fact the actual xj40 control unit, but had no problems fitting it.
However, if yours are actually aftermarket ones, not Kiekerts, some modifications may be required. In my case it only involved drilling new holes in the motor mounting bracket to fit the aftermarket motorsā screw positionsā¦
Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
Thanks for clarifying these points. I had not thought about the maladjustment meaning the possibility of the throw being insufficient in one direction or the other, but that makes sense and would, as you say, be seen on the flaps.
I think we are both saying much the same thing, it is just that your greater detailed knowledge of the system leads to a more precise description of the way things actually work, which is very helpful in aiding my understanding of things.
The replacement motors were original Kiekert ones and appeared identical to the ones removed from my car. Interestingly, they were not in as good condition externally as the failed motors removed from my car as the rubber bung retaining the cables had deteriorated quite a lot. I suspect the failure of these replacement motors is due to internal faults within the motor due to their age. The fact that they tested OK prior to fitment may be simply due to there being nothing connected to them so there is no resistance whatsoever when they are operated. Once fitted to the car there will be some resistance, even if the rods and locks are free moving.
To be continuedā¦
Paul