[E-Type] Car handling, and part of why it's *badly* misunderstood

E-Type
1

I posted this in the Pub (sorry, GC!) and since there’s been
many discussions in here about ultimate handling, and which
tire/anti-roll bar/jee whiz whooped-de-do
gizmo/bushing/springs will be ALL I need?
Well, I’m not really good at many things, but knowing how to
make a car handle and ‘interpreting’ the spacer is one
place I do pretty good at, and here was the beginning of my
road down which I went to learn how (1975):

The BEST words I’ve ever read about getting a car set up
correctly for racing, came from an incredibly thin, yet
incredibly accurate book I got from Datsun Competition,
way back when I built and ran a GT-5-spec 1200 Datsun in SCCA.
These words have NEVER left my consciousness, vis-a-vis
getting the most out of a car:

''Maximum performance from a chassis can only be extracted by
a driver who is capable of exploring the maximum limits of
adhesion without losing control. This is because basic
handling characteristics are related to the level of lateral
loading exerted on the chassis. The true characteristics of
a given set-up appear only when a car is driven at the
absolute limit of adhesion.

For example, assume that a car that understeers at .7G
lateral acceleration and becomes neutral when 1/0G is
reached. Also imagine that the gap between .7G and 1.0G can
be bridged by some suitable driving techniques. A driver who
is capable of pushing the car at no greater level than .7G
might want to eliminate the .7G understeer, and in the
process eliminates the car’s capability of generating the
very desirable 1.0G neutral characteristic.

So when setting up a car it becomes obvious that the degree
of driver skill is a factor which must be considered. The
closer to the absolute limit of adhesion a driver can come,
the more meaningful the driver’s observations and subsequent
adjustments become.’’

In other less politically correct words, the ‘spacer’ is
often the most limiting factor for any given car’s handling.
Mark Donohue was a Jedi master of not blaming the car, a
habit so many modern-day drivers increasingly do.
Wah f’n wah!

(*spacer = ANY given driver! VERY few spacers can
regularly approach these important parameters.)–
Paul Wigton, '60 DKW 1000SP, Tweety!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
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2

In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Wed 31 Oct 2007:

That just goes to show that there are drivers and tuners. Many
tuners are unable to drive cars on the edge of the envelope while
there are drivers thet can do it at any age. The communication
between drivers & tuners is critical to maximum results. I’ve
learned over the years that I’m no driver and likely a marginal
tuner as there’s no reliable feedback from my driver (me) to my
tuner (again me) in my case. I envy those who are good at both.–
E-type’s, XK’s Resurrected on Retired Time
Phoenix AZ, United States
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1 Like
3

In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Wed 31 Oct 2007:

Hmmm…just like computer problems, 95% of of all computer
errors originate between the chair and the keyboard-not
between the keyboard and the monitor. The other .05%? Well
computers do run on PFM, don’t they?

Bob–
'69 2+2, '69 OTS, '99 XK8 Mantua, New Jersey
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4

In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Wed 31 Oct 2007:

Paul,

This is soooooo true. Thank you for sharing it. I try too tell the
guy I am setting up the Cooper Formula Junior for…that the setup
will be different as you get faster.We will change the setup again
as he gets faster. Now I am working on setting the car up that he
is comfortable driving at his limit, so that he can explore new
limits easier. It is a step by step process, and it is fun too
(especially when the results show). We will be at the CSRG event at
ThunderHill this Weekend if anyone wants too see some great vintage
racing. It is supposed to be a beautiful Weekend. Bring your E-
Type, as it will not be crowded. We will be setting up and racing
the front engine drum brake BMC Formula Junior (green number 166)
for next seasons Formula Junior 50th anniversary.

Regards

-Don–
The original message included these comments:

''Maximum performance from a chassis can only be extracted by
a driver who is capable of exploring the maximum limits of
adhesion without losing control. This is because basic
handling characteristics are related to the level of lateral
loading exerted on the chassis. The true characteristics of
a given set-up appear only when a car is driven at the
absolute limit of adhesion.
For example, assume that a car that understeers at .7G
lateral acceleration and becomes neutral when 1/0G is
reached. Also imagine that the gap between .7G and 1.0G can
be bridged by some suitable driving techniques. A driver who

–
Petrarch
Los Gatos/CA, United States
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5

In reply to a message from Petrarch sent Wed 31 Oct 2007:

Yours must be a mid to late 50s, right? Dad’s Cooper was a rear
engine’er, 1961 vintage. Need some gen-you-wine Cooper mags for
it?..;)–
The original message included these comments:

racing. It is supposed to be a beautiful Weekend. Bring your E-
Type, as it will not be crowded. We will be setting up and racing
the front engine drum brake BMC Formula Junior (green number 166)
for next seasons Formula Junior 50th anniversary.

–
Paul Wigton, '60 DKW 1000SP, Tweety!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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6

In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Wed 31 Oct 2007:

Oh, yeah, another point: A well-set-up race car often times is
referred to as having ‘no under-/oversteer.’
WRONG! A well-set-up race car can, and should exhibit all three
basic conditions, as needed by the driver; under-, over-, and
neutral-steer.–
The original message included these comments:

The BEST words I’ve ever read about getting a car set up
correctly for racing, came from an incredibly thin, yet
incredibly accurate book I got from Datsun Competition,
way back when I built and ran a GT-5-spec 1200 Datsun in SCCA.
These words have NEVER left my consciousness, vis-a-vis
getting the most out of a car:

–
Paul Wigton, '60 DKW 1000SP, Tweety!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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7

In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Wed 31 Oct 2007:

Paul,

What is the exact name of this book and the author? I would like to
get it, as it sounds like the equivalent of Machiavelli’s Prince is
to politics.

As for under-steer, over-steer, and neutral-steering: This is so
true too. A great driver ‘‘aims’’ the car on the line around the
track, and uses all of theses traits too keep the car on line at
speeds much higher than one could just ‘‘steer’’ around the track.
There are loads of micro-adjustments a quick and smooth driver
takes around any turn at the limit. Great stuff Paul. Thanks!

Regards

-Don–
The original message included these comments:

Oh, yeah, another point: A well-set-up race car often times is
referred to as having ‘no under-/oversteer.’
WRONG! A well-set-up race car can, and should exhibit all three
basic conditions, as needed by the driver; under-, over-, and
neutral-steer.

The BEST words I’ve ever read about getting a car set up
correctly for racing, came from an incredibly thin, yet
incredibly accurate book I got from Datsun Competition,

–
Petrarch
Los Gatos/CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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1 Like
8

In reply to a message from Petrarch sent Thu 1 Nov 2007:

Don, I’ll upload the particulars tonight, when I get home. Doubtful
you can find one; it’s a pamphlet that came with the full-size
blueprints that one could buy from Datsun Competition (looong the
domain of Datsun wizard, Ron Johnson) when modifying one’s 1200 to
C Sedan (the class at the time of its publishing) and sadly, mine
got severely water-damaged somehow in the past 20 or so years. I’ll
even, if you cannot find one, lend you this one!
Nice to know someone out there appreciates my Machiavellian
traits…;)))–
The original message included these comments:

What is the exact name of this book and the author? I would like to
get it, as it sounds like the equivalent of Machiavelli’s Prince is
to politics.
As for under-steer, over-steer, and neutral-steering: This is so
true too. A great driver ‘‘aims’’ the car on the line around the
track, and uses all of theses traits too keep the car on line at
speeds much higher than one could just ‘‘steer’’ around the track.
There are loads of micro-adjustments a quick and smooth driver
takes around any turn at the limit. Great stuff Paul. Thanks!

–
Paul Wigton, '60 DKW 1000SP, Tweety!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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9

In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Wed 31 Oct 2007:

Just goes to prove what Jerry always says - the biggest performance aid most of us can buy is an advanced driving course…

As you will probably concur Paul, it’s slightly different on a bike where you hardly get any lateral G except a drifting component but with off-roaders especially there is a ‘zone’ beyond the bucking, kicking, hanging-on-for-dear-life range where a good chassis such a Rickman or Bultaco etc begins to ‘float’ over the washboard surface and it actually becomes smoother and ‘easier’ to ride (until you hit the next corner 25% faster, that is…)–
66 2+2, 73 OTS, 76 DD6 Coup�, 85 XJS 5sp convert
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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10

In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Fri 2 Nov 2007:

Indeed: motorcycle handling is a whoooole diff’rnt kettle of
(scalded) fish, for sure!
You’re correct,inasmuch as ‘back in (my) day,’ dirt bikes all
sucked; some just sucked less!
That’s one reason why I so loved Hodakas, for they were the first
good handling, ‘modern’ dirt bikes (even in my somewhat lessened
condition, I was able to lift the bike onto a milk crate for
dismantling; they were that light!).
I spent about three hours last night, dismantling the '‘Road Toad’
for its delivery to ‘The Mother Country’ (maybe you’ll get to see
it, eh?) and spending a good time of those hours kinda lost in a
reverie for the days I had shoulders and could ride a dirt bike!
I sometimes toy with the idea of getting a new dirt bike,
remembering what a damn good workout a day’s dirt riding can
do…then I think about the constant pain in my shoulders, and how
riding might not be the best thing for’m…
Oh well, I can still dream!–
The original message included these comments:

Just goes to prove what Jerry always says - the biggest performance aid most of us can buy is an advanced driving course…
As you will probably concur Paul, it’s slightly different on a bike where you hardly get any lateral G except a drifting component but with off-roaders especially there is a ‘zone’ beyond the bucking, kicking, hanging-on-for-dear-life range where a good chassis such a Rickman or Bultaco etc begins to ‘float’ over the washboard surface and it actually becomes smoother and ‘easier’ to ride (until you hit the next corner 25% faster, that is…)

–
Paul Wigton, '60 DKW 1000SP, Tweety!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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11

In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Thu 1 Nov 2007:

Thanks Paul,

Dust off the 1200 and run it at a NASA -or other road race
sanctioning body- event at your local raceway! Let it live again!
When I am not at the track supporting Jim Smith with his vintage
cars, I run my '69 Camaro with NASA at Infineon Raceway. Its a
great time. I am looking at getting a roll bar installed in the E
to let it have fun too!

Regards

-Don–
The original message included these comments:

Don, I’ll upload the particulars tonight, when I get home. Doubtful
you can find one; it’s a pamphlet that came with the full-size
blueprints that one could buy from Datsun Competition (looong the
domain of Datsun wizard, Ron Johnson) when modifying one’s 1200 to
C Sedan (the class at the time of its publishing) and sadly, mine
got severely water-damaged somehow in the past 20 or so years. I’ll
even, if you cannot find one, lend you this one!
Nice to know someone out there appreciates my Machiavellian
traits…;)))

–
Petrarch
Los Gatos/CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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12

In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Fri 2 Nov 2007:

I say get a modern bike, as the suspensions have come light years
from the old days when I had a link front Grieves with a Viller�s
Star Maker engine. The new stuff has loads of travel and is
pretty ‘‘cushy’’. There’s little like the feeling of flying into the
berm and roosting out! If there are no berm use ruts, roots, or any
thing else to get the pool ball effect. I ride regularly on a dual
suspension mountain bike to keep my health in check. Its not so
easy too find a place to dirt bike around here anymore, but
mountain biking is still going. The downhill run from my weekly
ride is sometimes the best part of my week! Go for it, but crashing
does hurt a lot more with age.

Regards

-Don–
The original message included these comments:

I sometimes toy with the idea of getting a new dirt bike,
remembering what a damn good workout a day’s dirt riding can
do…then I think about the constant pain in my shoulders, and how
riding might not be the best thing for’m…
Oh well, I can still dream!

–
Petrarch
Los Gatos/CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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13

In reply to a message from Petrarch sent Fri 2 Nov 2007:

Cushy for the tushy’s not the problem, Donny: One still has to
have shoulders to horse the damn thing around with!
I’ve injured myself in sooo many creative and interesting ways,
over the years, but nothing (short of my ‘big crash’/recovery back
in '91) has been as debilitating as this triple whammy; bursitis in
the left shoulder, torn rotator cuff in the right, and arthritis
from pinkie tips to scapulae in BOTH …so, I’m
getting …buuuuGAK!.. chicken with age!
As for the 1200, it went to greener (faster) pastures back in '94.
It’s now a Nationally-competitive H Prod car, somewhere in the
midwest.
There are many variations on this theme and here’s mine:
If I ever won a HUGE amount of money, I’d prolly get back into
racing, until it was all gone again, too.

:):):)–
Paul Wigton, '60 DKW 1000SP, Tweety!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
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