Which of these systems is most appropriate for an e type…the EGA
is at least twice as expensive…–
Peter Willetts 62 OTS, Laguna Niguel, Ca
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In reply to a message from PeteWilletts sent Sun 14 Sep 2014:
Pete,
I have both (the EGA is from from Gunson), in the
meantime I also have access to a professional Bosch EGA.
I would say the EGA is better, if a bit more involved
to use. The drawback with the EGA is you have no way to
verify calibration, so if it gets out of whack, you’re
sunk. With the colortune… blue is always blue.
Interestingly, the mechanic at the garage where I have
access to the Bosch unit uses the colortune. He does mostly
European classics - if a car with webers (for example) is
running really badly, and it seems like the carbs are off
(jetting is wrong for example) he will use the colortune as
part of the diagnostic process, then having ruled out or
rectified the any carb issues he then uses the Bosch unit
for final adjustment.
Calibration of the Bosch unit is appx 1000$, and by law
he has to have it calibrated every year. Since new cars all
have built in sensors, and the readings they provide are
legal here for the MOT, you can imagine how many tuneups it
takes him to recuperate the calibration cost of the EGA.
Are you just looking for a tuneup aid, or do you want
to be able to check your emissions before going to some
(obligatory) smog check?
Andrew–
The original message included these comments:
Which of these systems is most appropriate for an e type…the EGA
is at least twice as expensive…
–
1968 3.8S
Zurich, Switzerland
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In reply to a message from JagWaugh sent Sun 14 Sep 2014:
just a tune up toy!–
Peter Willetts 62 OTS, Laguna Niguel, Ca
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I got two ega meters from J C Whitney for a few bucks. WEld an oxygen sensor into each downpipe, and hook them up. YOu can see what the mixture is doing as you drive, under acclereation, deceleration and cruise. Then adjust the carbs accordingly.
LLoyd
Peter Willetts 62 OTS, Laguna Niguel, Ca
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In reply to a message from PeteWilletts sent Sun 14 Sep 2014:
Pete,
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Sun 14 Sep 2014:
Ray,
Did you post without having seen Schmedleys suggestion
of WBO2 sensors? That seems to me to be the best solution,
allowing you to monitor across the whole rev range. A bit
more expensive, and more bother to either run the heaters
the whole time, or remove the sensors and fit plugs between
tuneups but less still than a plug cut. A good solution,
imho.
btw, I agree fully on the ‘‘ear and feel’’ point.
Andrew–
The original message included these comments:
IMHO, the answer is: D - None of the Above. Both allow
monitoring mixture only at idle, which is often not
sufficient. The ColourTune can be a useful diagnostic
–
1968 3.8S
Zurich, Switzerland
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Sun 14 Sep 2014:
I thought one of the advantages of the Colortune is that it
could be used to examine the mixture at higher RPMs?
Of course, hard to beat reading the plugs for the final
assessment of mixture.–
The original message included these comments:
IMHO, the answer is: D - None of the Above. Both allow
monitoring mixture only at idle, which is often not
–
Geo Hahn 1969 OTS 4.2
Mt Lemmon, Arizona, United States
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In reply to a message from Geo H sent Sun 14 Sep 2014:
Seeing mixture at higher RPM is of no value, if it’s under
no load. It’s operating at a completely different ‘‘station’’
on the needle that when you’re actually driving the car.–
The original message included these comments:
I thought one of the advantages of the Colortune is that it
could be used to examine the mixture at higher RPMs?
Of course, hard to beat reading the plugs for the final
assessment of mixture.
–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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LLoyd,
I did the same just the last few days on my 72 but made the setup
permanent. It should really keep one familiar with how the car runs
over time. For those interested, ebay has them for under 20
bucks/gage. Although not driven much yet, it is amazing how the gage
shows what you hear and feel when the mix gets funky. I used single
wire O2 sensors and meter power from the dc driving the clock.
MaxOn Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 12:23 PM, LLoyd (a rithmetician) soothsayer1@comcast.net wrote:
I got two ega meters from J C Whitney for a few bucks. WEld an oxygen sensor into each downpipe, and hook them up. YOu can see what the mixture is doing as you drive, under acclereation, deceleration and cruise. Then adjust the carbs accordingly.
LLoydYou carry a pistol when you don’t expect trouble. When you know the sh*ts going to hit the fan, then you lug something serious along.
Northworld Trilogy by David Drake
----- Original Message -----
Which of these systems is most appropriate for an e type…the EGA
is at least twice as expensive…Peter Willetts 62 OTS, Laguna Niguel, Ca
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In reply to a message from JagWaugh sent Sun 14 Sep 2014:
Andrew,
Yes, but Lloyd has two Strombergs, not three SUs. I’m not
at all sold on that method for tuning triple SUs. First,
you only ‘‘see’’ two exhaust streams, each of which is a
mixture of exhaust from cylinders fed by two different
carbs. So, you can easily set the mixture exactly right per
the sensors, but end up with one carb lean, and the next one
rich.–
The original message included these comments:
Ray,
Did you post without having seen Schmedleys suggestion
of WBO2 sensors? That seems to me to be the best solution,
allowing you to monitor across the whole rev range. A bit
more expensive, and more bother to either run the heaters
the whole time, or remove the sensors and fit plugs between
tuneups but less still than a plug cut. A good solution,
imho.
–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Sun 14 Sep 2014:
G. R. Wade in his manual ‘‘Tuning S.U. Carburetters’’ (3rd edition,
p.35 or 4th edition p.22) recommends the following procedure:
''Having jacked up the car, on suitably located safety stands, fit a
Colortune into one of the cylinders in place of a plug. Start the
car up and get an accomplice to ‘drive’ the car as if he were on
the road. The ‘driving’ will be done as normal, but with one
important exception; the ‘driver’ will use the brake of the car to
pull the engine revs down to the revs at which the mixture is
required to be known at. Say we are starting again at 2,000 revs to
analyse the mixture, then the ‘driver’ of the car will gradually
open the throttle whilst applying greater and greater amounts of
footbrake pressure until he reaches the state where the throttle is
wide open and the footbrake is hard enough on to keep the revs at,
say, 2,000. At this point you can note: (a) how far the carburetter
is open, and whether or not the mixture is rich or weak at the
particular revs concerned by looking at the Colortune. This
proceedure can now be repeated at 3,000 revs, 4,000 revs and so on
up through the rev range until the rev limit is achieved. (With
high revving cars it is not adviseable to exceed about 5,000 rpm
with a Colortune). When using this technique it is important that
(a) the person reading the colour of the and noting the distance
the carburetter is open does so as quickly as possible, and that
the accomplice ‘driving’ the car achieves the steady state
conditions as quickly as possible as prolonged use of the brakes to
hold the engine down, will cause the brakes to overheat. However,
applications of fifteen seconds or so are well with-in order, and
in practice this proves to be plenty of time to make the reading
required.
By utilizing this technique with the Colortune it is possible to
get the needle pretty well sorted out in a very short space of
time. For instance, starting from scratch it is possible to have a
carburetter correctly needled within an hour, providing you and
your accomplice work well as a team.‘’
I have 3 Colortunes but the above is not something I have
attempted. When I have used the Colortunes to check idle mixture
I’ve found that the procedure described in the manual gets you so
close that all you end up doing with the Colortunes is confirm that
the mixture is good, ie little or no adjustment. Reving the engine
to higher rpms doesn’t tell you what’s happening under load.–
The original message included these comments:
Seeing mixture at higher RPM is of no value, if it’s under
no load. It’s operating at a completely different ‘‘station’’
on the needle that when you’re actually driving the car.
The original message included these comments:I thought one of the advantages of the Colortune is that it
could be used to examine the mixture at higher RPMs?
Of course, hard to beat reading the plugs for the final
assessment of mixture.
–
Nick Saltarelli '68 Cdn mkt E-type S1� OTS, '54 XK120SE OTS
Niagara, Ontario, Canada
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Ray’s got that right. Further, going uphill will read differently than going down hill. Both float level and needle height will have to be adjusted.
I adjust the needle until the idle is “pretty close”. Then adjust the float to mix where I want it to at highway speeds, then go back and re-adjust the needle for idle. It may require the float adjustment again, but keep narrowing down the range.
LLoyd
You carry a pistol when you don’t expect trouble. When you know the sh*ts going to hit the fan, then you lug something serious along.
Northworld Trilogy by David Drake----- Original Message -----
In
Seeing mixture at higher RPM is of no value, if it’s under
no load. It’s operating at a completely different ‘‘station’’
on the needle that when you’re actually driving the car.
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Sounds great, on the sIII you need 4, one on each downpipe, for each carb. I mount my gauges under the dash on a removable gauge holder and plug-in wires harness.
LLoyd
You carry a pistol when you don’t expect trouble. When you know the sh*ts going to hit the fan, then you lug something serious along.
Northworld Trilogy by David Drake----- Original Message -----
LLoyd,
I did the same just the last few days on my 72 but made the setup
permanent. It should really keep one familiar with how the car runs
over time. For those interested, ebay has them for under 20
bucks/gage. Although not driven much yet, it is amazing how the gage
shows what you hear and feel when the mix gets funky. I used single
wire O2 sensors and meter power from the dc driving the clock.
Max
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Yeh, good point. Any tuneing of 3 carbs on a 2 downpipe exhaust is hit-and-miss-guesswork, at best.
LLoyd
You carry a pistol when you don’t expect trouble. When you know the sh*ts going to hit the fan, then you lug something serious along.
Northworld Trilogy by David Drake----- Original Message -----
In reply to a message from JagWaugh sent Sun 14 Sep 2014:
Andrew,
Yes, but Lloyd has two Strombergs, not three SUs. I’m not
at all sold on that method for tuning triple SUs. First,
you only ‘‘see’’ two exhaust streams, each of which is a
mixture of exhaust from cylinders fed by two different
carbs. So, you can easily set the mixture exactly right per
the sensors, but end up with one carb lean, and the next one
rich.
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Ohhhh, really good advice.
Then, I assusme, Mr. Wade advises you pour gasoline over the brake disks to cool them. While smoking. wearing cotton shorts.
Did I miss anything?
LLoyd
You carry a pistol when you don’t expect trouble. When you know the sh*ts going to hit the fan, then you lug something serious along.
Northworld Trilogy by David Drake----- Original Message -----
G. R. Wade in his manual ‘‘Tuning S.U. Carburetters’’ (3rd edition,
p.35 or 4th edition p.22) recommends the following procedure:
''Having jacked up the car, on suitably located safety stands, fit a
Colortune into one of the cylinders in place of a plug. Start the
car up and get an accomplice to ‘drive’ the car as if he were on
the road. The ‘driving’ will be done as normal, but with one
important exception; the ‘driver’ will use the brake of the car to
pull the engine revs down to the revs at which the mixture is
required to be known at. Say we are starting again at 2,000 revs to
analyse the mixture, then the ‘driver’ of the car will gradually
open the throttle whilst applying greater and greater amounts of
footbrake pressure until he reaches the state where the throttle is
wide open and the footbrake is hard enough on to keep the revs at,
say, 2,000. At this point you can note: (a) how far the carburetter
is open, and whether or not the mixture is rich or weak at the
particular revs concerned by looking at the Colortune. This
proceedure can now be repeated at 3,000 revs, 4,000 revs and so on
up through the rev range until the rev limit is achieved. (With
high revving cars it is not adviseable to exceed about 5,000 rpm
with a Colortune). When using this technique it is important that
(a) the person reading the colour of the and noting the distance
the carburetter is open does so as quickly as possible, and that
the accomplice ‘driving’ the car achieves the steady state
conditions as quickly as possible as prolonged use of the brakes to
hold the engine down, will cause the brakes to overheat. However,
applications of fifteen …
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In reply to a message from LLoyd (a rithmetician) sent Sun 14 Sep 2014:
What? Not something you’d be comfortable doing, Lloyd? :o)–
The original message included these comments:
Ohhhh, really good advice.
Then, I assusme, Mr. Wade advises you pour gasoline over the brake disks to cool them. While smoking. wearing cotton shorts.
Did I miss anything?
–
Nick Saltarelli '68 Cdn mkt E-type S1� OTS, '54 XK120SE OTS
Niagara, Ontario, Canada
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In this case it’s either each bank (presently) or 3 on each side
because of 6 IDF’s. Time will tell if I need to go through the
trouble. Wish they had small sensors. Anyone know if they exist?
MaxOn Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 5:26 PM, LLoyd (a rithmetician) soothsayer1@comcast.net wrote:
Sounds great, on the sIII you need 4, one on each downpipe, for each carb. I mount my gauges under the dash on a removable gauge holder and plug-in wires harness.
LLoydYou carry a pistol when you don’t expect trouble. When you know the sh*ts going to hit the fan, then you lug something serious along.
Northworld Trilogy by David Drake
----- Original Message -----
LLoyd,
I did the same just the last few days on my 72 but made the setup
permanent. It should really keep one familiar with how the car runs
over time. For those interested, ebay has them for under 20
bucks/gage. Although not driven much yet, it is amazing how the gage
shows what you hear and feel when the mix gets funky. I used single
wire O2 sensors and meter power from the dc driving the clock.
Max
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In reply to a message from N�ck sent Sun 14 Sep 2014:
That would no doubt work, but is, by far, the most
dangerous tune-up procedure I have ever heard of! If you
try this, be sure to video-tape it, so we can use it for
the Darwin Prize application…
Reminds me of something similar I saw when working on fuel
metering for the 383cu. in. V-8 at Chrysler in the late
'70s. One of the adjustments during the development cycle
was carried out at WOT, with the automatic transmission in
gear, and the output shaft locked. One of the engineers
took a leeeetle too long to make the adjustment, and one
of the oil cooler lines burst, covering here with boiling
hot ATF. Fortunately, she was not seriously hurt (purely
by dumb luck). The engineers (all electrical engineers)
quickly blamed a faulty oil cooler hose, until I asked
them a simple question: ‘‘You have a 383 cu. in. V8
running WOT, producing probably 200HP, yet nothing on the
output is moving. Where is all that energy going?’’. The
answer, of course, is the torque converted turned it all
into heat in the ATF.–
The original message included these comments:
G. R. Wade in his manual ‘‘Tuning S.U. Carburetters’’ (3rd edition,
p.35 or 4th edition p.22) recommends the following procedure:
''Having jacked up the car, on suitably located safety stands, fit a
Colortune into one of the cylinders in place of a plug. Start the
car up and get an accomplice to ‘drive’ the car as if he were on
the road. The ‘driving’ will be done as normal, but with one
important exception; the ‘driver’ will use the brake of the car to
pull the engine revs down to the revs at which the mixture is
required to be known at. Say we are starting again at 2,000 revs to
–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Sun 14 Sep 2014:
Hmm. So the thought of an E-type on jackstands being simultaneously
revved to redline in first gear while the brakes are applied full
force by an accomplice (who doubtless has a nervous tic) makes you
squeamish? Apparently it’s what you have to do to get any value out
of your Colortunes.–
The original message included these comments:
That would no doubt work, but is, by far, the most
dangerous tune-up procedure I have ever heard of! If you
try this, be sure to video-tape it, so we can use it for
the Darwin Prize application…
–
Nick Saltarelli '68 Cdn mkt E-type S1� OTS, '54 XK120SE OTS
Niagara, Ontario, Canada
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In reply to a message from N�ck sent Sun 14 Sep 2014:
good grief…sorry I asked–
Peter Willetts 62 OTS, Laguna Niguel, Ca
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