In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Sun 17 May 2015:
Don’t ask me Les. I just follow the manual and never have
trouble. Got two more motors to do and I bet the same will
happen. I am a slow learner.
Simon’s the one who measures seals to about 0.1% accuracy.
Since his was ‘clearly too long’ he’ll have the before and
after length we can all check our Payen and Jaguar seals
against to avoid blindly following the outdated book
advice.–
The original message included these comments:
Presumably that only refers to a genuine Jaguar supplied seal Pete (I
assume Jaguar can still supply these seals??). Who knows whether the
aftermarket seals are made to the exact same dimensions and whether,
then, trimming is required? And, if it is required, how would one
know how much to trim??.
–
1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Sun 17 May 2015:
Don’t ask me Les. I just follow the manual and never have
trouble. Got two more motors to do and I bet the same will
happen. I am a slow learner.
Simon’s the one who measures seals to about 0.1% accuracy.
Since his was ‘clearly too long’ he’ll have the before and
after length we can all check our Payen and Jaguar seals
against to avoid blindly following the outdated book
advice.
The original message included these comments:
Presumably that only refers to a genuine Jaguar supplied seal Pete (I
assume Jaguar can still supply these seals??). Who knows whether the
aftermarket seals are made to the exact same dimensions and whether,
then, trimming is required? And, if it is required, how would one
know how much to trim??.
–
1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Doug Buchan sent Sun 17 May 2015:
I think it should be clear (from some who have actually
measured the J17 tools) that they size the seals smaller
than the scroll. Let’s put to bed the idea that they size
so as to not touch the crank. This is a repeated story from
posts which include no measurements.
Doug measured his scroll - mine was polished and miked at
3.123’’ ± 0.0003’‘. This is reasonable to Doug’s 3.1252’’ -
granting the 0.0002’’ is a last significant digit with a
standard mike gives a confidence that the scrolls are
probably 3.125’’ nominal.
If the Zelenda tool was 3.1194’’ and my (presumably
Churchill) was 3.110’‘, there is no doubt the tools are smaller.
It is also true this probably makes no difference if the
seal is concentric and has no parts sticking out.
I think the post that started this years ago mentioned
the US cars with smooth seal race area being ‘‘tight’’ with
the seal because they wouldn’t ‘cut’ the seal and the Jag
needing clearance because of the scroll. Worked 10 years in
a Chevy shop and an engine shop and some old US engines
leaked and some seeped. Do what the manual says and it will
be OK.
Since my connecting rod big ends miked at 2.2325’’ after
sizing for ARP and 2,2332’’ before with me measuring, I’d
guess my mikes and technique are OK.–
The original message included these comments:
In reply to a message from larebob sent Sat 16 May 2015:
My Zelenda J17B measures 3.1194
A crank I have measures 3.1252 so the tool undersizes the
seal by .0058
In addition to pre-sizing the seal the tool insures
concentricity.
–
Larry Velk: '64 FHC,928, FZR1000, XR4ti, 325Ci
New Berlin, WI, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from larebob sent Mon 18 May 2015:
I am informed by George that the 5 JCNA tools, measured
around high 60s-70 F are:
3.1194
3.11945 (brand new, never used, de-waxed to measure…)
3.1145 (By phone, using HF instrument, & ?iffy technique?)
3.119
3.120
Pete–
The original message included these comments:
Doug measured his scroll - mine was polished and miked at
3.123’’ ± 0.0003’‘. This is reasonable to Doug’s 3.1252’’ -
granting the 0.0002’’ is a last significant digit with a
standard mike gives a confidence that the scrolls are
probably 3.125’’ nominal.
If the Zelenda tool was 3.1194’’ and my (presumably
Churchill) was 3.110’', there is no doubt the tools are smaller.
–
1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
HF tools are ok to the closest 1/8 inch.On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:52 PM, PeterCrespin jag@thewritersbureau.com wrote:
In reply to a message from larebob sent Mon 18 May 2015:
I am informed by George that the 5 JCNA tools, measured
around high 60s-70 F are:
3.1194
3.11945 (brand new, never used, de-waxed to measure…)
3.1145 (By phone, using HF instrument, & ?iffy technique?)
3.119
3.120
Pete
–
The original message included these comments:
Doug measured his scroll - mine was polished and miked at
3.123’’ ± 0.0003’‘. This is reasonable to Doug’s 3.1252’’ -
granting the 0.0002’’ is a last significant digit with a
standard mike gives a confidence that the scrolls are
probably 3.125’’ nominal.
If the Zelenda tool was 3.1194’’ and my (presumably
Churchill) was 3.110’', there is no doubt the tools are smaller.
–
1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Sun 17 May 2015:
The seals on the last 4 or 5 engines that we have done have all
needed trimming. Some are up to 10mm too long. These are the white
ones that come in the bottom end gasket sets from SNGB , Manners.
Chris the chief engine builder sizes them with the tool and then
cuts them to length with a flat razor blade.
Where do you source the proper Jag ones Peter?–
The original message included these comments:
‘’…the instructions Jaguar gave out, in capitals:
DO NOT cut the ends of the seal…‘’
In reply to a message from abowie sent Mon 18 May 2015:
Andrew,
I bought original Jag ones (asbestos!) from SNG Barratt in
Manchester NH.
They are not part of a kit.
They are on the website with the original Jag part number.
They are from 1992 stock (it’s on the label).
Anyway I compared these original asbestos Jaguar ones to
those I have from a Payen Bottom End Gasket Set (also from
SNGB) and the Jag ones are significantly shorter. I have
taken photos and will post them as soon as they are
approved by the Jag-Lovers moderator.
This would seem to be proof positive that the Payen ones
(and probably other non-Jag ones) are not subject to
the ‘‘DO NOT cut’’ rule.
This long thread has already shown that there are different
opinions on this issue and also a lot of uncertainty about
the exact role of the special tool.
This has been very useful to me as it caused me to question
what I was doing and helped me decide to redo the job. I am
really happy that I am now using the original Jaguar
Asbestos Rope Seal which I will NOT CUT as it probably
(hopefully) won’t be necessary.
Thank you Jag Lovers participants.
Simon–
The original message included these comments:
Where do you source the proper Jag ones Peter?
–
Simon '68 E-Type OTS
Carlisle, MA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from abowie sent Mon 18 May 2015:
I us the graphite hard pre-formed seals in the Payen
gasket sets which is what dealers used to sell around 15
years ago in my very limited experience of dealer parts.
Obviously I soak the graphite ones. I did use a white one
but it was an OEM hard asbestos one I think, not the soft
things you see sometimes. Even then, however, I think I’s
pack the seal ends down into the groove with the crank
pressing on the seal half in its holder.
Pete–
The original message included these comments:
The seals on the last 4 or 5 engines that we have done have all
Where do you source the proper Jag ones Peter?
–
1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
The picture on the left is two Rope Seals from the same
Payen kit laid one over the other. Again, they are
different lengths.
This supports the contention that one may have to trim non-
Jaguar Rope Seals.
YMMV
Cheers
Simon–
The original message included these comments:
turn, to OK with cut seal - you’re in no position to
contradict the instructions Jaguar gave out, in capitals:
DO NOT cut the ends of the seal.
–
Simon '68 E-Type OTS
Carlisle, MA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from SGLP sent Tue 19 May 2015:
Now look what you’ve been and gone and made me do!
You forced me out into 84 degree evening warmth to stroll
over to the garage block and look at my gasket sets… It
was so nice I didn’t want to come back.
My mileage does vary.
I can’t say I’ve ever measured free seal lengths or
compared back to back (and let it be said I haven’t done
THAT many Jag engines myself as an amateur). I’ve just
never had to cut a Payen seal after fitting. Anecdote is
all I can offer. It just happens to agree with the manual.
Sadly, all but one of the gasket sets are top end or sump
without rope seals. The one with rope seals was bought at
Stoneleigh and uses white asbestos rope over the black
centre thread. I would be sceptical it was asbestos rope
except the German unbranded packaging has an asbestos
warning sticker on it.
The two halves are the same length and when straightened
out one measured 6’'. I had a loose seal holder handy and
offered it up and it probably would be a bit long except of
course the purpose of massaging it into the groove is to
compress it, so I wouldn’t know until I tried and I’m not
at that stage yet. I would normally buy a Payen again for
the second engine I need to do but it’s a long stroke 4.7L
so I’m going to use a lip seal with the new billet crank.
Pete–
The original message included these comments:
The picture on the right is a Jaguar Original Rope Seal
laid over on top of a Payen Kit part. As you can see the
Payen part is considerably longer.
The picture on the left is two Rope Seals from the same
Payen kit laid one over the other. Again, they are
–
1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Billet crank!!! Boy being editor of JJ must pay well! Only kidding Pete!
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.On May 19, 2015, at 5:44 PM, PeterCrespin jag@thewritersbureau.com wrote:
In reply to a message from SGLP sent Tue 19 May 2015:
so I’m going to use a lip seal with the new billet crank.
Pete
The original message included these comments:
The picture on the right is a Jaguar Original Rope Seal
laid over on top of a Payen Kit part. As you can see the
Payen part is considerably longer.
The picture on the left is two Rope Seals from the same
Payen kit laid one over the other. Again, they are
–
1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Robert Stevenson sent Tue 19 May 2015:
Some poor sap had to offload a 120mm fully-counterweighted
billet crank, eight Arrow H beam rods and eight 95mm
liners and 6 offset dome slipper pistons. I gave him very
little for the lot in the UK some years ago. I am just
using the rods, crank and some custom pistons for the 20
thou rebore, to build what should be a 4841cm3 torque
monster. Too much engine for the little alloy D, as I have
to use a B-type head on that. Too much engine for 6’’
Minilites probably as well. I expect I’ll end up going
backwards into a hedge somewhere.–
The original message included these comments:
Billet crank!!! Boy being editor of JJ must pay well! Only kidding Pete!
–
1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from larebob sent Mon 18 May 2015:
Larry,
I agree.
I mentioned concentricity because some time ago someone
posted a picture of sizing a seal while it was in the jaws
of a vise.
Obviously this method is wrong and not in accordance with
the manual.
It clearly instructs performing the operation on the block
using the #1 main tunnel bore as a pilot for the 1st step of
the J17 to ensure that the finished, presized seal is
concentric with the scroll.–
The original message included these comments:
I think it should be clear (from some who have actually
measured the J17 tools) that they size the seals smaller
In reply to a message from Doug Buchan sent Wed 20 May 2015:
Doug,
Life is made even easier for v12 owners - the last version of the
tool has a separate metal insert which sits inside the main bearing
cap and guarantees that the tool will sit perfectly at right angles
to the seal.
I find it interesting that the tool has measured up slightly
undersize. As soon as the crank is put into the engine, it’ll have
to finish off what the tool started, so why not simply make the
tool exactly the same size as the crank?
kind regards
Marek–
v12 E-type running MS3/3X sequential lpg and petrol
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from MarekH sent Wed 20 May 2015:
It’s undersize because it’s a deformable (slightly) seal.
Garter seals are undersize and so are o-rings.
It’s not unknown for the seals to dry out or settle under
the crank weight after long layup, leading to significant
leakage when restarted. With luck it goes away or at least
improves as the engine is re-used and the seal is resoaked
in oil and massaged in use.
When the seal is brand new and the engine not yet run it
will stop oil seeping, even along the scroll if you leave
the engine tilted 30 degrees backward with a full sump.
That was my little test before I put the last rebuilt
engine back in. That implies that before it beds in there
is enough give under light compression by the crank, for
the rope to seal the scroll depression.
Pete–
The original message included these comments:
I find it interesting that the tool has measured up slightly
undersize. As soon as the crank is put into the engine, it’ll have
to finish off what the tool started, so why not simply make the
tool exactly the same size as the crank?
–
1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Wed 20 May 2015:
I just miked a 4.2l crank in my shop. The scroll is 3.119’’ I’ve
done quite a few engines over the years. Keep a few rope seals in
a jar soaked with oil. Never cut the seal. I’ve always sized them
on the scroll before putting the crank in the block by screwing
the seal halves together on the scroll when they (seal halves) are
off the block. That process ends the debate about worry about the
size of the scroll etc. Never had one leak in 20 plus years. Merek
H’s comments about the seal being 2 thou bigger than the scroll is
something I hadn’t heard before. Given that I believe that the
scroll dia. is the same as the diameter of the tool I’m kind of
doubtful. I wouldn’t think that the rope seal could maintain that
clearance in operation anyway.–
68 E Type OTS, 67 E Type coupe, 07 XKR
Victoria, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
