[E-Type] Inner fulcrum bearing tubes

E-Type
1

Does anyone know if there are different versions of this IRS
bearing tube available based on hardness? C17168

The offerings from the usuals don’t describe the part in
that detail. I found a few archive entries on the subject,
but nothing current enough to help.

Thanks–
Anthony, Toronto Ontario, 69 OTS
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2

In reply to a message from EtypeLvr sent Wed 3 Feb 2016:

Anthony,

Sheesh! You need to have a talk with James Douglas! He di
did quite a bit of investigation to discover the hardness re
required by the original design. He tested and found that NO
NONE of the parts supplied by several of our vendors were ne
nearly hard enough.

He eventually rented an oven and did his own heat treating
to the correct Rockwell number. James has been on the
list, not sure whether he still is since he sold his E-Type to
to John Carey. If he does not answer, contact me offline an
and I’ll give you his address.

Jerry–
The original message included these comments:

Does anyone know if there are different versions of this IRS
bearing tube available based on hardness? C17168

–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
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3

In reply to a message from mouton sent Wed 3 Feb 2016:

Hi Jerry, so it’s still the case that none of the vendors
are offering hard enough bearing tubes 6 years after that
archive post by James?

The original message included these comments:

Sheesh! You need to have a talk with James Douglas! He di
did quite a bit of investigation to discover the hardness re
required by the original design. He tested and found that NO

–
Anthony, Toronto Ontario, 69 OTS
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4

In reply to a message from EtypeLvr sent Wed 3 Feb 2016:

Anthony,

I know nothing about it, but James may know. The way these
things work, I have a hard time believing anything would
have changed. You could ask him or ask the vendors.

Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
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5

In reply to a message from mouton sent Wed 3 Feb 2016:

Hi Guys,

I am still on and off the forum from time to time. I am
helping my friend Scott with his 1970 OTS.*****************
Thank god for old email. I have all of mine since 1993
Here is the old email I sent to Bill and Jason.

Tuesday, October 20, 2009

Subject: Jaguar XKE Independent Rear Suspension Lower Inner
Control Arm Tubes (C17168).

Bill Terry and Jason Len:

After several discussions with bearing engineers that
inspected several original XKE bearing tubes (C17168) a
general consensus is that the Jaguar XKE independent rear
suspension lower inner control arm tubes which act as
the �inner race� of the needle bearings in the control arms
often show false brinelling.

The major reason often cited for the brinelling is the lack
of angular motion of the control arm which results in a
lack of proper lubrication.

On examination of the tubes, several engineers asked the
question as to if the tubes did in fact have the proper
heat treating.

The manufacture of the Torrington bearings (Timken)
specifies that the tubes, acting as the inner race, have a
hardness between 58 and 64 HRC with a case depth = (0.07 to
0.12) * Dw where Dw is the diameter of the rolling element
which is 7/8�. They recommend higher multiplier (0.12) on
low core strength materials and/or heavy loads. The minimum
recommended depth is 0.015 and based on a 7/8� diameter
bearing and the 0.12 multiplier the recommended case
hardening depth should be 0.105 inch.

Two original Jaguar tubes, one new early 3.8 (long) tube
from Terry�s Jaguar, and new one short tube from XK�s
Unlimited were taken to a San Francisco Bay Area heat
treatment business for analysis. The tubes were tested in
the center of the tubes. The tubes showed the following:

Jaguar Original #1: 53 RC

Jaguar Original # 2: 63 RC

Terry�s Jaguar: 55 RC

XK�s Unlimited: SOFT (This tubes showed no case hardening
after several tests)

In addition, several hardness scales were tested and the
depth of all samples was under the manufactures
specifications.

Conclusions:

Although the false brinelling of the tubes is no doubt in
part due to a lack of proper lubrication, the fact that the
tubes fall short of the manufacturer�s specification for
hardness may be a major contributing factor. The tube that
tested out at 63 RC showed the lest amount of brinelling or
general wear of all the used tubes.

It is recommended that the suppliers of these parts revisit
their suppliers and see to it that they are selling tubes
(inner races) that are within the specifications of the
manufacturers of the bearings they are supplying for this
assembly. Based on the results I recommend that the tubes
be heat treated to RC 64 with a minimum depth of 0.105 Inch.

Respectfully Submitted,

James Douglas

San Francisco.

–
James
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6

In reply to a message from SFjames sent Wed 3 Feb 2016:

James, thank you for the detailed response.

After all the research you did on this subject, at this
point in time, would you know of a vendor supplying heat
treated replacements to a minimum of RC 58?

Alternatively, and probably like most, I could go out and
purchase what I think is best and roll the dice.

Or do you think I may be overly concerned about nothing?

Thanks–
The original message included these comments:

It is recommended that the suppliers of these parts revisit
their suppliers and see to it that they are selling tubes
(inner races) that are within the specifications of the
manufacturers of the bearings they are supplying for this
assembly. Based on the results I recommend that the tubes
be heat treated to RC 64 with a minimum depth of 0.105 Inch.

–
Anthony, Toronto Ontario, 69 OTS
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7

In reply to a message from EtypeLvr sent Wed 3 Feb 2016:

I wish I new more about case hardening of steel. I think
some hardening is achieved by heating the steel and
quenching in water, or oil. Do we have a metallurgist who
can explain this?–
The original message included these comments:

After all the research you did on this subject, at this
point in time, would you know of a vendor supplying heat
Alternatively, and probably like most, I could go out and
purchase what I think is best and roll the dice.
Or do you think I may be overly concerned about nothing?
Anthony, Toronto Ontario, 69 OTS

–
John M Holmes 1973 E Type SIII Supra 5Sp, 70 SII OTS 05XJ8L
Ontario, Canada
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8

In reply to a message from John M Holmes sent Thu 4 Feb 2016:

I used to have a tin of ‘Casenite’ dark powder. You heated
your parts cherry red and dipped them in - more than once
if required. I think it was part charcoal as carbon source
and part nasty stuff to aid absorbtion. I think I tossed
it whrn I moved over here, which was probably not clever
as I think DIY case hardening materials are hard to get
these days.–
The original message included these comments:

I wish I new more about case hardening of steel. I think
some hardening is achieved by heating the steel and
quenching in water, or oil. Do we have a metallurgist who
can explain this?

–
66 ‘UberLynx’ D, 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L, 97 XJ6L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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9

In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Thu 4 Feb 2016:

For quenching powder ( probably of similar components to
your Casenite ) check with www.RoseMill.com . I suspect
that the powder is a way to get carbon into the surface
layer of the steel, thus changing the surface structure to
give higher hardness.–
The original message included these comments:

I used to have a tin of ‘Casenite’ dark powder. You heated
your parts cherry red and dipped them in - more than once
if required. I think it was part charcoal as carbon source
and part nasty stuff to aid absorbtion. I think I tossed
it whrn I moved over here, which was probably not clever
as I think DIY case hardening materials are hard to get
these days.

–
John M Holmes 1973 E Type SIII Supra 5Sp, 70 SII OTS 05XJ8L
Ontario, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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10

In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Thu 4 Feb 2016:

Pete, John

The original case hardening powders (including the original

Casenite) contained Cyanide to aid in the oxygen exclusion.
Modern powders are available and no longer contain cyanide.
Brownells makes a case hardening powder which should be readily
available in the US, methinks.

The powder's function is to provide Carbon while excluding

Oxygen. Case hardening has gone out of fashion because of the
availability of air, water, or oil hardening steels. Case
hardening tends to warp the parts less while developing less
surface scale buildup (water is the worst for warping, air
worst for scale). Having spent a day or three cutting a watch
pinion the last thing you want to end up with is a part that is
warped AND needs to be polished down below the target size.

Years ago I made some powder using an ancient recipe

(Saunier, 1887) which called for charcoal, ground horn, and a
potassium salt iirc. It stunk, but it worked.

If you only need a couple of parts it probably isn't worth

the bother to do it yourself, I would try to find a local tool
and die maker or gunsmith, they probably have the powder as
well as a temperature controlled oven. In fact, given that you
don’t know what kind of steel the parts from the usuals are
made from, you might just get them made from scratch - they are
after all just surface ground hardened tubes…

Andrew–
The original message included these comments:

if required. I think it was part charcoal as carbon source
and part nasty stuff to aid absorbtion. I think I tossed
it whrn I moved over here, which was probably not clever
as I think DIY case hardening materials are hard to get

–
1968 3.8S
Zurich, Switzerland
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11

In reply to a message from JagWaugh sent Thu 4 Feb 2016:

John, Pete, Andrew, as I nudge you back to the subject of
this post, do you think I should just buy what I think is best?

It sounds like it’s difficult to determine who sells the
best part.

I was hoping the sage elders that frequent this forum would
know.

Thanks–
Anthony, Toronto Ontario, 69 OTS
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12

In reply to a message from EtypeLvr sent Thu 4 Feb 2016:

Anthony,
Unfortunately, although it may be possible to determine
who sold the best part, this does not necessarily mean that
they are still stocking parts made from the exact same
material! Your chances are better with someone like Robey, who
make most of their parts in house, as they have no reason to
change a running system. Places that outsource production to
the lowest bidder may not have consistent quality.

 Order some, and try a file on them. If you can mark it

with a file, send them back as they aren’t hardened at all. At
the end of the day they don’t need to be super hard - in fact
this would probably lead to early failure, but they do need to
be hard enough that the bearing will roll on the surface.

Andrew–
The original message included these comments:

It sounds like it’s difficult to determine who sells the
best part.
I was hoping the sage elders that frequent this forum would

–
1968 3.8S
Zurich, Switzerland
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13

In reply to a message from JagWaugh sent Thu 4 Feb 2016:

Thanks Andrew, sounds like reasonable advice.–
The original message included these comments:

 Order some, and try a file on them. If you can mark it

with a file, send them back as they aren’t hardened at all. At
the end of the day they don’t need to be super hard - in fact
this would probably lead to early failure, but they do need to
be hard enough that the bearing will roll on the surface.

–
Anthony, Toronto Ontario, 69 OTS
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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14

G’Day All,
Hardening steels is literally a can of worms. Trying to harden ordinary
bright mild steel will likely get you a parsons nose, only good in parts,
especially if wear/brinelling on a bearing surface are important. Yes you
can definitely influence the steel composition with hardening powders but
penetration of the alteration to the steel composition will not be very
deep/even and the quenching may not work very well in the hardening step.
The best strategy is to start with a steel with the right carbon and or
other elements composition in a softened state, machine it to marginally
oversize shape and then harden it. With the right steel a close enough
hardening can be achieved by heating evenly to a bright cherry red and
quench in cold (not freezing) water, reheat evenly to just hot enough to
make sparks when rubbed with a bit of hickory wood and allow to air cool out
of any draughts (slower the cooling the better), this step will remove
surface stresses that may cause cracks/failures in use. Next hit surfaces
with a sand/media blast to remove scale and finally machine/polish for best
fit. Bearing makers always start with the right steel, never with ordinary
bright mild. Using the powders you definitely will achieve a harder than a
case hardened bright mild result but will not get even Brinnel punch test
results over whole piece. The proper steel composition/hardness tubes will
give better bearing life/performance, powder alteration then hardening will
be a better result than ordinary case hardening of bright mild without the
powder, and that will be better than unhardened bright mild, but … how
critical all that is in the Jaguar application I do not know. If there is
some way to find out the ‘composition’ of the steel tubes used by Jaguar it
is likely a specialist steel supplier may have that steel in a suitable size
tube. I would not think Jaguar obtained a special size tube run just for
them, so it is likely a standard bearing surface size that just needs
cutting right length bits off the end of a 6.5 metre length. If research
(beyond my pay scale) can find the answer to type of steel and tube
availability it might be a nice little earner for someone cutting off the
right size bits of tube :-), a drop saw to get 90 degree ends with cut off
discs for steel is only tool needed (plus specs and other safety gear of
course). My father’s factory made steel springs, grader blades,
agricultural tines for scarifiers etc (including springs for cars, trucks
and railway rolling stock) we did harden/temper steels in the process but
did buy the right composition stock for each application in first place.
Probably I have not helped much, trying to get even heating with an oxy
torch is never going to work.
Cheers, John B. 67 2+2 in Oz—
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15

In reply to a message from jembennett sent Sat 6 Feb 2016:

Marvellous post, thank you. I used Casenite mostly for
hardening reground tool edges and centre punch or
screwdriver tips. Occasional one-use lathe form curters.

Love the Hickory wood test - I can smell it from here. We
don’ need no steenkin’ pyrometers!–
The original message included these comments:

quench in cold (not freezing) water, reheat evenly to just hot enough to
make sparks when rubbed with a bit of hickory wood and allow to air cool out
of any draughts (slower the cooling the better), this step will remove

–
66 ‘UberLynx’ D, 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L, 97 XJ6L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
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16

In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Sat 6 Feb 2016:

I would just get a set from any of the usual suspects and
send it out to a heat treating house.

In my case ‘‘the oven’’ for one batch was $100. You could do
a dozen or more batches in the over for the $100.

If you really wanted to be picky, order some very hard but
lathe ready steel from someone like McMaster-Carr have a
shop make a set of the tubes and then send them out for
heat treating.

Do READ the comments by the bearing marker in my detailed
post. If the base material is somewhat suspect then have
them treat it longer-deeper.

James.–
James
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