[E-Type] play bearings IRS drive shafts

Hi all,

When holding the rear wheel at 6 and 12 oclock I have an amount of
play. The wheel is rocking I think about 2 mm. You can hear it
rocking at slow speed. Is this due to bearing failure from the
drive shafts or can it be the IRS not correctly shimmed? So adding
or removing shims could solve it. I noticed two different shims:
shims for the bearing housing (with 5 holes in it) and shims for
the bearings.

Can this be done with the IRS under the car, or must the IRS be
removed?

When holding the rear wheel at 3 and 9 oclock I have no amount of
play, so this is good.

Thanks for advice.

Regards,
Richard–
E-type Series II RHD 2+2 1969 http://www.richardbrand.nl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from kingrichard sent Tue 27 Mar 2012:

Richard, Any play you ‘‘see’’ while holding and pushing and
pulling on the suspended rear wheel is related to the
bearing in the hub, and I see no reason for the up/down
movement to be any different from the side to side. Said
another way , if there IS play, then I would expect it to be
the same in all directions. Whatever play there is is most
likely in the hub bearing, and not in the IRS. If you study
the ROM, you will see that there are 3 distinct functioning
parts…the IRS, the output bearing on the IRS, and then the
hub bearing, which what we are concerned with here.If this
is something that needs fixing, and I am not sure it is,
then the hub must be removed and the bearing assessed. Hope
this helps.–
The original message included these comments:

When holding the rear wheel at 6 and 12 oclock I have an amount of
play. The wheel is rocking I think about 2 mm. You can hear it
rocking at slow speed. Is this due to bearing failure from the
drive shafts or can it be the IRS not correctly shimmed? So adding
Richard
E-type Series II RHD 2+2 1969 http://www.richardbrand.nl


John M Holmes 1973 E Type SIII Supra 5Sp, 70 SII OTS 05XJ8L
Ontario, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from John M Holmes sent Tue 27 Mar 2012:

Thanks John,

I though play at the rear wheel holding at 6 and 12 oclock and play
at the the rear wheel holding at 3 and 9 oclock indicates different
failures between drive shaft bearings at the axle and hub bearings?

Richard–
The original message included these comments:

another way , if there IS play, then I would expect it to be
the same in all directions. Whatever play there is is most
likely in the hub bearing, and not in the IRS. If you study


E-type Series II RHD 2+2 1969 http://www.richardbrand.nl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from kingrichard sent Tue 27 Mar 2012:

Besides excess bearing play, movement in ‘‘6 and 12’’ holding
positions (only) could indicate worn drive shaft (half shaft)
ujoints, and would be the easiest to check and fix. They also would
be more likely to produce noise.
Good luck with all of it, whatever it is!
Phil 1S73330–
The original message included these comments:

When holding the rear wheel at 6 and 12 oclock I have an amount of
play. The wheel is rocking I think about 2 mm. You can hear it
rocking at slow speed. Is this due to bearing failure from the
drive shafts or can it be the IRS not correctly shimmed? So adding
or removing shims could solve it. I noticed two different shims:
shims for the bearing housing (with 5 holes in it) and shims for
the bearings.
Can this be done with the IRS under the car, or must the IRS be
removed?
When holding the rear wheel at 3 and 9 oclock I have no amount of
play, so this is good.


Phil Schaefer
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from Metalover sent Tue 27 Mar 2012:

The question is: Where is the movement taking place? If the
hub is moving relative to the hub carrier, then the wheel
bearings are at fault, and the same play should be present
when rocking the wheel at the 9 and 3 o’clock positions.
Otherwise, the u-joint is probably at fault, allowing the
entire hub and carrier to rock. It could also be the lower
fulcrum shaft bearings. This will be evident by motion
between the hub carrier and the wishbone.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from John M Holmes sent Tue 27 Mar 2012:

John,

When my outer U-joints were worn, the result was motion when you
pushed/pulled the suspended wheel, and it was quite pronounced.
The whole hub was moving, and pivoting around the lower fulcrum.
That allowed movement when holding top to bottom, but the fulcrum
itself allowed no movement when holding front to back.

If you open the U-joint cover and put your finger between the two
yokes while you push the wheel top to bottom you will feel the
slight movement between them if it’s the U-joint; there should be
none at all. Also you can touch the hub through the wire wheel and
if you feel no motion between wheel and hub, that also indicates
it’s the U-joint.

Pascal Gademer actually had one of his U-joints fail on the
highway, and it was quite scary.

Jerry–
The original message included these comments:

Richard, Any play you ‘‘see’’ while holding and pushing and
pulling on the suspended rear wheel is related to the
bearing in the hub, and I see no reason for the up/down


Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from mouton sent Tue 27 Mar 2012:

I’m with Jerry - I would strongly suspect the half-shaft UJs. My
new replacement ones started to exhibit the same problem after less
than 1000 miles on the SOL tour. They still got me home more than
2000 miles later, but ‘‘clunked’’. As others have said, you need to
rock the wheel (or more likely have someone else do so) while
closely monitoring the various components of the suspension to see
which parts are moving relative to each other. It could be the diff
output bearings (in which case you’ll notice the disc rotor
moving), or the inboard or outboard half-shaft UJs, or the lower
fulcrum shaft bearings. In my case, it was clear that the whole hub
carrier was pivoting about the lower fulcrum shaft due to play in
the half-shaft UJs. I never bothered to identify whether it was the
inboard or outboard joints, and replaced both.

-David–
davidxk '56 XK-140 OTS, '69 XKE OTS , '98 XK8
Monterey CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from mouton sent Tue 27 Mar 2012:

Dad had an outer UJ disintegrate on his Cooper FJr., at speed:
wiped the entire outer suspension bits OFF THE CAR. Dad allowed it
was ‘kinda a wild ride.’’–
The original message included these comments:

Pascal Gademer actually had one of his U-joints fail on the
highway, and it was quite scary.


Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from kingrichard sent Tue 27 Mar 2012:

Don’t count out play in the output shaft bearings. I recently
bought a 2.88 diff from an XJS to put in my E type, and the output
shaft bearings were shot on one side. I would say approx 1.5mm
play. These bearings are subject to a side load, so they do wear
out.
Sombody has to crawl under to find the source of play while someone
else wiggles the wheel. Hopefully you have access to a hoist, and
someone other than your significant other to do the wiggling.
cheers
Doug–
The original message included these comments:

rocking at slow speed. Is this due to bearing failure from the
drive shafts or can it be the IRS not correctly shimmed? So adding


69 E type FHC 1R25901, 91 Miata Turbo, Locost 7,
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from blownmiata91 sent Tue 27 Mar 2012:

Many thanks for all replies. I checked that the hub is moving also.
So that narrows it to the half shaft UJ’s or drive shaft bearings.

I will investigate further. Can I remove the drive shaft with the
IRS under the car?

REgards,
Richard van den Brand–
The original message included these comments:

Sombody has to crawl under to find the source of play while someone
someone other than your significant other to do the wiggling.
cheers
Doug


E-type Series II RHD 2+2 1969 http://www.richardbrand.nl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from kingrichard sent Wed 28 Mar 2012:

If you’re refering to the prop shaft, twixt the transmission and
diff…nope. IRS has to come out.–
The original message included these comments:

I will investigate further. Can I remove the drive shaft with the
IRS under the car?


Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Wed 28 Mar 2012:

Hi,

No not tht prop. The 2 drive shaft (left an dright) which are
bolted to the half shafts via the brake discs.

Regards,
Richard–
The original message included these comments:

In reply to a message from kingrichard sent Wed 28 Mar 2012:
If you’re refering to the prop shaft, twixt the transmission and
diff…nope. IRS has to come out.


E-type Series II RHD 2+2 1969 http://www.richardbrand.nl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from kingrichard sent Wed 28 Mar 2012:

Aha, OK: If you remove one of the shock/spring assemblies, you can
remove the hub carrier and halfshaft with the IRS in situ. You’ll
need a press to remove the halfshaft from the hub carrier.

Keep track of the spacers that go between the HS and the brake
rotor, for they set the camber.–
The original message included these comments:

No not tht prop. The 2 drive shaft (left an dright) which are
bolted to the half shafts via the brake discs.


Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from kingrichard sent Wed 28 Mar 2012:

Richard,

The half shafts (with a UJ at each end) can be removed with the IRS
in position on the car. The big question will be whether the spline
between the half-shaft and the hub was locktited when it was
assembled or not. If they were, they are a bear to remove. A
special Churchill puller tool is the ‘‘proper’’ way to remove them.
If you don’t have access to it, a press may be required, which will
require you to remove the hub carrier from the car too, which comes
with some associated ‘‘fun’’ concerning the outer fulcrum shaft. If
you are lucky, and the splines are not stuck, you can have both
half-shafts off in less than an hour. With the car supported on the
IRS tie-plate, just remove the road wheel, remove the split pin and
castellated nut in the centre of the hub, remove the four nuts that
secure the inner end of the half-shaft to the disc rotor/diff
output shaft, and pivot the hub carrier about the lower fulcrum
shaft, as you withdraw the half-shaft from the 4 bolts. Now see if
the half-shaft can be withdrawn from the hub…

Good luck,
-David–
The original message included these comments:

Hi,
No not tht prop. The 2 drive shaft (left an dright) which are
bolted to the half shafts via the brake discs.
Regards,
Richard


davidxk '56 XK-140 OTS, '69 XKE OTS , '98 XK8
Monterey CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from davidxk sent Wed 28 Mar 2012:

Aha, thanks. Luckely I can remove the half shaft from the hub, so
that’s no problem. I can then remove the half shafts from the disc
brakes. I still need to set the camber, so that’s no worry. I
refitted the shims back in 1994 the way they came out when
restoring the IRS. But 18 years later I have some play. Note that I
never drive the car ever! It’s a 20 years project.

For removing the drive shafts from the rear axle I need to remove
the brake disc and caliper?

Regards,
Richard–
E-type Series II RHD 2+2 1969 http://www.richardbrand.nl
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from kingrichard sent Wed 28 Mar 2012:

Richard,

If you mean the ‘‘differential’’, when you refer to the ‘‘rear axle’’,
then the answer is no. The 4 bolts that secure the output flange of
the differential to the half shafts, pass through the disc rotors
and camber-setting shims, but once the special locking nuts are
removed, the half shaft can be withdrawn on it own, leaving the
disc rotor and shims still on the bolts (the bolt head is inboard
of the output flange).

As I recall, if you want to remove the disc rotor you will need to
remove the caliper first, but this isn’t necessary if you only want
to remove the half-shaft.

-David–
The original message included these comments:

For removing the drive shafts from the rear axle I need to remove
the brake disc and caliper?


davidxk '56 XK-140 OTS, '69 XKE OTS , '98 XK8
Monterey CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php