[E-Type] Reynolds 531

List: With all of the recent discussion of front frames I found the
following at www.reynoldsusa.com**************************************
Technical Advice for 531
Chemical Composition:C0.23-0.29%S0.045% maxSi0.15-0.35%P0.045%
maxMn1.25-1.45%Mo0.15-0.25%

Typical Physical Properties

Ultimate Tensile Stress:45-55 Tonf/in2
700-850 N/mm2
100-123 KsiElongation on 5.65 A:10% min

Reynolds 531 is entirely suitable for the following manufacturing methods;
under normally recognized working practices:*Hand brazing *Hearth brazing
*Automatic machine brazing

Before the tubes are assembled the ends should be degreased and
cleaned with emery over the area which is inserted into the lug. This
ensures that the brazing material makes good contact with the parent metal.
(Reynolds 531 Cycle Tubes are sent out free from scale and rust, and
protected with an anti-corrosive oil, but if by some mischance during
transport or storage some rust should form, this must be completely
removed.) When the tubes are fitted into the lugs, care should be
taken that the assembly is not in a state of stress. Brazing
should be carried out in the following clockwise sequence:

*bottom bracket *down tube/head tube joint *head tube/top tube joint *top
tube/seat tube joint

This sequence obviates the danger of a stress raiser being created
at a major shock point.
When brazing frames made from Reynolds 531 Tubing, the joints
should be pre-heated, and after brazing the cooling should be controlled and
not forced. Brazing must be carried out in a shop free from draughts.
Great care must be taken not to overheat the material, or to heat
too large an area of the tube. Overheating will lead to burning or to brass
inclusion (where the molten brass or bronze enters the grain of the steel),
either of which will make the tube brittle.
Setting, when necessary, should always be done cold.
Most proprietary brazing materials can be used satisfactorily, but
we recommend the use of brazing materials with a melting point of about 850
C to 950 C.

NB:
A fork EB711 27.5x20 oval x 1.2/0.8 is available as an alternative.
A fork EB712 27.5x20 oval x 1.4/0.9 is available as an alternative.

For lugless construction outside butted seat tubes and oversize
head tubes are available.
Due to raw material availability, items larger than 31.7mm diameter
or thicker than 1.6mm may be supplied in seamless chrome-molybdenum.

The company reserves the right to amend, modify or withdraw and details or
specifications given on this site without prior notice.

Regards, John Walker
69 2+2

Thought I’d share this with you folks…I decided to
contact Reynolds in the Uk to see what their view was on repairs to
the tubing used on our cars, here’s the reply from their managing
director…

"
Hello Les,
The company that manufactured the 531 in those days was part of the TI
Group as “plain gauge” tube – a high manganese-moly steel alloy that
was frequently brazed safely. This type of tubing is no longer
supplied and the current Reynolds is a private company which sells 531
to the bicycle industry only. The modern equivalent is 631 –termed an
air-hardening steel, which is mainly TIG welded.
As you note, there are many opinions on whether 531 can be repaired.
Note that we can suggest options for tubing use but the fabricator
skill and methods used have a major bearing on the outcome. Where
safety is concerned, we will not say if a particular repair method
will work because not matter how strong a tube is used, the actual
final strength of the repair will be dependent on the fabricator.
In a brazed 531 bike frame, I am aware of experienced builders
replacing entire tubes. And I know that classic E-type chassis have
been “renovated” by replacing parts of the structure – not necessarily
with 531 (as it is not available now).
But if you have a safety critical part, unless your fabricator
confirms they have done something similar in the past personally I
would not recommend that course of action.–
Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Thu 12 Sep 2013:

I was talking to Uryk from e-type fabs about this a while
back as I’m going to replace the frames on mine at some
point because they’re past their best and his reply was…

The main reasons the subframes fail are fatigue, internal
corrosion and accident damage

They were never designed to sustain the kind of use (and
abuse) that fifty years of driving produces

You have the twisting effect from the torsion bars, the
vibrations, torque & sheer weight from the engine unit and
all the suspension / steering forces wreaking havoc on these
lightweight parts…then throw in internal corrosion into
the equation and you have a recipe for disaster

The original design was flawed in many ways � we instigated
a stress analysis program with a university a few years ago
with the chief aim of finding out why the frames fail and
expected life cycle…using data replicating typical usage,
road conditions and driving style, we came up with an
endurance limit of between 5 and 7 years (depending on
severity of use) � so in other words, after this time, the
frames stop doing their job and start to breakdown (micro
cracking, corrosion, etc)

Just about everything in the modern world is repairable to a
degree but, in the case of the subframes, what a repair does
is to compromise the integrity of the structure…in other
words, there is no way you can guarantee the repair will be
as strong or have the same mechanical properties as the
remaining structure…so all of a sudden you�ve introduced
risk and uncertainty into the equation, with the obvious
consequences � also, how far do you go… with one repair
that leads to another and so

Jaguar never advocated any kind of repair- and neither do we
� you should notify your insurance company in the event of
a repair or any alterations to the structure of your car

The only way I can guarantee the strength and integrity of a
subframe is to manufacture from new using tubing, sheetmetal
and brazing rods of known quality and mechanical strength �
and a method with a proven track record

The frames go through a process of setting and heat
treatment during their manufacture, and again, these are
strictly monitored to ensure the end product not only fits
as it should, but is as strong as the originals (actually ,
our std frame are substantially stronger than the originals
by virtue of improved methods of manufacture (we gas flux,
which ensures a porous free weld without flaws and staged
heat treatment), slightly heavier wall thickness on the
tubing and superior specs on the tubing, sheetmatal and
brazing rods

The bottom line is that once the frames start to degrade,
their effectiveness becomes compromised and safety becomes
the primary concern–
1965 FHC 1E20390, 1976 Lotus Esprit, 1976 Mini 1000
Bedford, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from Paul Coleman sent Thu 12 Sep 2013:

Jaguar never ‘‘advocated’’ any repair is a bit of an
understatement. What they actually did was absolutely forbid any
repair. I have seen two cases of legal action over this–One was a
well intentioned dealer who paid the price. At the end of the day
with insurance claims or law issues everything will revert --not to
Reynolds, or a current mfn. but to the original service documents
from Jaguar. When faced with multiple entries in multiple documents
of ‘‘DO NOT ATTEMPT REPAIR’’ the case is short lived.–
The original message included these comments:

Jaguar never advocated any kind of repair- and neither do we


George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

So happy I replaced mine with Urik’s about 7 years ago.---- George Camp scjag@juno.com wrote:

=============
In reply to a message from Paul Coleman sent Thu 12 Sep 2013:

Jaguar never ‘‘advocated’’ any repair is a bit of an
understatement. What they actually did was absolutely forbid any
repair. I have seen two cases of legal action over this–One was a
well intentioned dealer who paid the price. At the end of the day
with insurance claims or law issues everything will revert --not to
Reynolds, or a current mfn. but to the original service documents
from Jaguar. When faced with multiple entries in multiple documents
of ‘‘DO NOT ATTEMPT REPAIR’’ the case is short lived.

The original message included these comments:

Jaguar never advocated any kind of repair- and neither do we


George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

This all may be true but I have some reservation. Some of the terms
he uses smacks of self promotion. e.g they were a flawed design, start
to fail after 7 years. These sound like scare tactics that end with
you are at risk unless you have my new frames but maybe I’m over
sensitive. Folks race these things (read abuse and stress) and have
been racing them for 50 years and not all of them have new frames.
The question has been asked here several times and I don’t recall a
first hand report of a catastrophic failure. A few failures have been
reported on damaged frames but also a few cases where frames were,
holed, cracked and even broken through and did not fail/collapse. And
the use of tube frames was not a new science when the car was
designed, there was lots of aircraft experience so any inference that
they weren’t designed to last, tolerate the torsional stresses and
flawed doesn’t sit well with me. JM2CW.
pauls

I was talking to Uryk from e-type fabs about this a while
back as I’m going to replace the frames on mine at some
point because they’re past their best and his reply was…

The main reasons the subframes fail are fatigue, internal
corrosion and accident damage

They were never designed to sustain the kind of use (and
abuse) that fifty years of driving produces

You have the twisting effect from the torsion bars, the
vibrations, torque & sheer weight from the engine unit and
all the suspension / steering forces wreaking havoc on these
lightweight parts…then throw in internal corrosion into
the equation and you have a recipe for disaster

The original design was flawed in many ways – we instigated
a stress analysis program with a university a few years ago
with the chief aim of finding out why the frames fail and
expected life cycle…using data replicating typical usage,
road conditions and driving style, we came up with an
endurance limit of between 5 and 7 years (depending on
severity of use) – so in other words, after this time, the
frames stop doing their job and start to breakdown (micro
cracking, corrosion, etc)

Just about everything in the modern world is repairable to a
degree but, in the case of the subframes, what a repair does
is to compromise the integrity of the structure…in other
words, there is no way you can guarantee the repair will be
as strong or have the same mechanical properties as the
remaining structure…so all of a sudden you’ve introduced
risk and uncertainty into the equation, with the obvious
consequences – also, how far do you go… with one repair
that leads to another and so

Jaguar never advocated any kind of repair- and neither do we
– you should notify your insurance company in the event of
a repair or any alterations to the structure of your car

The only way I can guarantee the strength and integrity of a
subframe is to manufacture from new using tubing, sheetmetal
and brazing rods of known quality and mechanical strength –
and a method with a proven track record

The frames go through a process of setting and heat
treatment during their manufacture, and again, these are
strictly monitored to ensure the end product not only fits
as it should, but is as strong as the originals (actually ,
our std frame are substantially stronger than the originals
by virtue of improved methods of manufacture (we gas flux,
which ensures a porous free weld without flaws and staged
heat treatment), slightly heavier wall thickness on the
tubing and superior specs on the tubing, sheetmatal and
brazing rods

The bottom line is that once the frames start to degrade,
their effectiveness becomes compromised and safety becomes
the primary concern
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<From: “Paul Coleman” paulcoleman70@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Reynolds 531


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Well said Paul!
Bob
889076
Plymouth, MiOn Sep 13, 2013, at 9:25 AM, paul spurlock wrote:

This all may be true but I have some reservation. Some of the terms
he uses smacks of self promotion. e.g they were a flawed design, start
to fail after 7 years. These sound like scare tactics that end with
you are at risk unless you have my new frames but maybe I’m over
sensitive. Folks race these things (read abuse and stress) and have
been racing them for 50 years and not all of them have new frames.
The question has been asked here several times and I don’t recall a
first hand report of a catastrophic failure. A few failures have been
reported on damaged frames but also a few cases where frames were,
holed, cracked and even broken through and did not fail/collapse. And
the use of tube frames was not a new science when the car was
designed, there was lots of aircraft experience so any inference that
they weren’t designed to last, tolerate the torsional stresses and
flawed doesn’t sit well with me. JM2CW.
pauls

From: “Paul Coleman” paulcoleman70@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Reynolds 531

I was talking to Uryk from e-type fabs about this a while
back as I’m going to replace the frames on mine at some
point because they’re past their best and his reply was…

The main reasons the subframes fail are fatigue, internal
corrosion and accident damage

They were never designed to sustain the kind of use (and
abuse) that fifty years of driving produces

You have the twisting effect from the torsion bars, the
vibrations, torque & sheer weight from the engine unit and
all the suspension / steering forces wreaking havoc on these
lightweight parts…then throw in internal corrosion into
the equation and you have a recipe for disaster

The original design was flawed in many ways – we instigated
a stress analysis program with a university a few years ago
with the chief aim of finding out why the frames fail and
expected life cycle…using data replicating typical usage,
road conditions and driving style, we came up with an
endurance limit of between 5 and 7 years (depending on
severity of use) – so in other words, after this time, the
frames stop doing their job and start to breakdown (micro
cracking, corrosion, etc)

Just about everything in the modern world is repairable to a
degree but, in the case of the subframes, what a repair does
is to compromise the integrity of the structure…in other
words, there is no way you can guarantee the repair will be
as strong or have the same mechanical properties as the
remaining structure…so all of a sudden you’ve introduced
risk and uncertainty into the equation, with the obvious
consequences – also, how far do you go… with one repair
that leads to another and so

Jaguar never advocated any kind of repair- and neither do we
– you should notify your insurance company in the event of
a repair or any alterations to the structure of your car

The only way I can guarantee the strength and integrity of a
subframe is to manufacture from new using tubing, sheetmetal
and brazing rods of known quality and mechanical strength –
and a method with a proven track record

The frames go through a process of setting and heat
treatment during their manufacture, and again, these are
strictly monitored to ensure the end product not only fits
as it should, but is as strong as the originals (actually ,
our std frame are substantially stronger than the originals
by virtue of improved methods of manufacture (we gas flux,
which ensures a porous free weld without flaws and staged
heat treatment), slightly heavier wall thickness on the
tubing and superior specs on the tubing, sheetmatal and
brazing rods

The bottom line is that once the frames start to degrade,
their effectiveness becomes compromised and safety becomes
the primary concern
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from paul spurlock sent Fri 13 Sep 2013:

Right you are Paul! In the two cases I am speaking of there was
accident damage and the failure was from the attempted repair! I
have replaced them over the years and it was almost always from
rust damage (normally under the battery area from having removed
the tray) or accident damage.–
The original message included these comments:

This all may be true but I have some reservation. Some of the terms
he uses smacks of self promotion. e.g they were a flawed design, start
to fail after 7 years. These sound like scare tactics that end with
you are at risk unless you have my new frames but maybe I’m over
sensitive. Folks race these things (read abuse and stress) and have
been racing them for 50 years and not all of them have new frames.
The question has been asked here several times and I don’t recall a
first hand report of a catastrophic failure. A few failures have been


George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from paul spurlock sent Fri 13 Sep 2013:

E-type subframes are not only exceedingly strong, their
design incorporates considerable structural redundancy.
When I first acquired my OTS it had a disconcerting habit
of squawking over bumps. When I detailed the engine
compartment a few years later I discovered the LHS
subframe was cracked in two places and the lower outermost
tube was completely severed - ie not providing any
structural support at all. Yet it did not fail, despite
spirited driving at sometimes high speed. The damage was
carefully braze repaired and that cured the squawk, but
they did not last. After several thousand miles of
spirited driving at sometimes etc. new hairline cracks
appeared about a half inch from the repair fillets. Upshot
is these structures will take a lot of abuse. Also
Jaguar’s advice not to attempt repairs is in my experience
sound.–
Nick Saltarelli - 1968 E-type S1� OTS, 1954 XK120SE OTS
Niagara, Ontario, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

I have decided not to attempt any repairs so am ordering a complete
set. Hell, the old lady is well worth it!On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Nick S. stellar-plain@sympatico.ca wrote:

In reply to a message from paul spurlock sent Fri 13 Sep 2013:

E-type subframes are not only exceedingly strong, their
design incorporates considerable structural redundancy.
When I first acquired my OTS it had a disconcerting habit
of squawking over bumps. When I detailed the engine
compartment a few years later I discovered the LHS
subframe was cracked in two places and the lower outermost
tube was completely severed - ie not providing any
structural support at all. Yet it did not fail, despite
spirited driving at sometimes high speed. The damage was
carefully braze repaired and that cured the squawk, but
they did not last. After several thousand miles of
spirited driving at sometimes etc. new hairline cracks
appeared about a half inch from the repair fillets. Upshot
is these structures will take a lot of abuse. Also
Jaguar’s advice not to attempt repairs is in my experience
sound.

Nick Saltarelli - 1968 E-type S1½ OTS, 1954 XK120SE OTS
Niagara, Ontario, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php


Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php