[E-Type] S1 E-Type stop/side lamp lens screws- slotted or phillips?

I have posted the same question/issue on the Concours forum and
thought I would expand the conversation here.

I have been researching this issue of slotted vs phillips
(pozidrive)screws for the stop/side lamp lens and as I dig deeper,
the more confusion there appears to be out there regarding
originality. According to the JCNA S1 Judges Guide, on page 14
it says ‘‘slotted’’ However, according to the S1 Factory Fit section
of the e-type forum at wwww.etypeuk.com/forum explains 3.8’s were
slotted and 4.2 were posidriv (Phillips).
Quote:
‘‘Part number 8606 ‘Screw, securing lens’. On the 3.8 cars these
side/indicator lens screws should be slot head and not the
pozidrive head seen on the 4.2 cars. They are chrome plated and
have a small lead in nipple at the start of the thread, which is
peculiar to Lucas.’’

On that same forum S1 Factory Fit section are posted photographs of
several origional unrestored S1 cars with very low miles. The 1961,
875103 clearly shows phillips. 1963, 88730 and 1966/67, 1E13256
both show slotted.

In Phillip Porters book, Collector’s Originality Guide: Jaguar E-
Type, on page 41 show phillips. In Anders Ditlev Clausaser’s book,
Factory-Original Jaguar E-Type on page 39 show phillips.

In reviewing my collection of photographs SI E-Types, both restored
and unrestored cars, I see both phillips and slotted used on the
lens of different cars.

Is it accurate to say that for the SI E-Type that either slotted or
phillips head screws were used on the stop lamp/side lamp lens?
What documentation exists to support the JCNA S1 Judge’s Guide
statement of slotted (and not phillips)?–
Tom K., 1966 E-Type Coupe
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


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In reply to a message from Jaghappy sent Wed 5 Mar 2014:

Tom I am not sure how posting this again will ‘‘expand’’ the
discussion. You got very detailed response from all in the
Concours posting and even an invitation from the author of
the S1 guide to contact him. Further Dick M explained the
ref. marks beside each entry. I see no documentation in
your cites other than forum ramblings. Bob’s guide has
stood the test of time but he continues to offer updates
when available and proper proof is offered. Pictures of
cars with unknown history are never accepted as such. I
suggest your best efforts are to contact Bob as he offered.
Lastly you co-mingle the term Phillips and Pozidrive–they
are two different animals when this level of detail is
reached. Best of luck.–
The original message included these comments:

I have posted the same question/issue on the Concours forum and
thought I would expand the conversation here.
I have been researching this issue of slotted vs phillips
(pozidrive)screws for the stop/side lamp lens and as I dig deeper,
the more confusion there appears to be out there regarding
originality. According to the JCNA S1 Judges Guide, on page 14
it says ‘‘slotted’’ However, according to the S1 Factory Fit section
of the e-type forum at wwww.etypeuk.com/forum explains 3.8’s were
slotted and 4.2 were posidriv (Phillips).
Quote:
''Part number 8606 ‘Screw, securing lens’. On the 3.8 cars these


George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


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In reply to a message from Jaghappy sent Wed 5 Mar 2014:

it should be noted that Pozidriv screw heads are not
Phillips. They look similar but are not.

It is really a lot of fun trying to remove a frozen Pozidriv
screw with a Phillips blade. At the least you will damage
the screw head.–
The original message included these comments:

I have posted the same question/issue on the Concours forum and
thought I would expand the conversation here.
I have been researching this issue of slotted vs phillips
(pozidrive)screws for the stop/side lamp lens and as I dig deeper,
the more confusion there appears to be out there regarding
originality. According to the JCNA S1 Judges Guide, on page 14
it says ‘‘slotted’’ However, according to the S1 Factory Fit section
of the e-type forum at wwww.etypeuk.com/forum explains 3.8’s were
slotted and 4.2 were posidriv (Phillips).


'68 OTS : ‘03XJR I canna’ change the Law of Physics–Scotty
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


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In reply to a message from George Camp sent Thu 6 Mar 2014:

George,
I believe Philip Porter in his book, Collector�s Originality Guide:
Jaguar E-Type, said it best when he wrote, ‘’…the subject of
originality is a minefield and will always be the basis for
continuing debate.’’ I have the utmost respect for those devoted to
the discovering the salient details of this great marque and
treasure the work that went into the JCNA Series 1 E-type Judge�s
Guide. It has provided valuable assistance in guiding many in the
pursuit of accurate restorations, including my own. However, if I
may, I will have to respectfully disagree with your statement that
there was a detailed response to my question. In fact, there is no
reference established in the judge�s guide (most recent update June
2013) and as Bob explained, the information on the screws came from
a respected restorer observing original cars. I have no doubt the
accuracy of the information provided by the restorer and again,
respect the work Bob has done to insure the most accurate
information is provided. My concern is that the information is
coming from secondary sources, whether from a respected restorer�s
original car with slotted screws or from Philip Porters book (and
other respected sources such as UK�s E-Type Club) documenting
original cars with Phillips screws. Perhaps the issue would be
settled if the Jaguar Spares Catalogue illustrated the screw head
or described it as �slotted� or �Phillips�, but it does not ( at
least the 4.2 spares catalogue does not). Your observation that
the judge�s guide has stood the test of time related to this issue
is well taken, and I only raise it here in this forum in the spirit
of discovery, hoping to find a more rock-solid answer that would
have value to me and other Jag-lovers forum participants
endeavoring for authenticity.

I appreciate the information regarding the difference
between �pozidriv� and �Phillips�. I only used the terms together
for the benefit or readers who may know one or the other. I
believe the more accurate description for the discussion would
be �phillips.� Interestingly, the pozidriv was latter patented by
Phillips, whose founder, Henry Phillips, invented the screw with
his namesake in the early 1930�s.–
The original message included these comments:

In reply to a message from Jaghappy sent Wed 5 Mar 2014:
Tom I am not sure how posting this again will ‘‘expand’’ the
discussion. You got very detailed response from all in the
Concours posting and even an invitation from the author of
the S1 guide to contact him. Further Dick M explained the
ref. marks beside each entry. I see no documentation in


Tom K., 1966 E-Type Coupe
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


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In reply to a message from Jaghappy sent Thu 6 Mar 2014:

Ok try this on for size. J30 (3.8L E-Type parts manual)
lists the screw for front and rear turn lenses as #8606)
and J37 (4.2L Parts Manual) lists #8606. In both manuals
(esp. so in the 3.8) they are clearly illustrated as slot
screws. NOS parts marked #8606 are slotted. Lucas provided
the screws and lenses for replacement. What Lucas included
years later is suspect as they were providing the
aftermarket and not exclusively Jaguar. I also think there
is some confusion on this issue as Jaguar did change the
type of screw that held the headlamp rings from Slotted to
Pozidrive (clearly detailed in bulletins). Hope this helps!–
The original message included these comments:

I believe Philip Porter in his book, Collector�s Originality Guide:
Jaguar E-Type, said it best when he wrote, ‘’…the subject of
originality is a minefield and will always be the basis for


George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


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Good point about later production Lucas parts! As you know the Lucas
boxes these parts came in during that era were dated and that’s why I
mentioned dated boxes. Mind your P’s & Q’s at the AGM!
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.On Mar 7, 2014, at 9:44 AM, George Camp wrote:

In reply to a message from Jaghappy sent Thu 6 Mar 2014:

Ok try this on for size. J30 (3.8L E-Type parts manual)
lists the screw for front and rear turn lenses as #8606)
and J37 (4.2L Parts Manual) lists #8606. In both manuals
(esp. so in the 3.8) they are clearly illustrated as slot
screws. NOS parts marked #8606 are slotted. Lucas provided
the screws and lenses for replacement. What Lucas included
years later is suspect as they were providing the
aftermarket and not exclusively Jaguar. I also think there
is some confusion on this issue as Jaguar did change the
type of screw that held the headlamp rings from Slotted to
Pozidrive (clearly detailed in bulletins). Hope this helps!

The original message included these comments:

I believe Philip Porter in his book, Collector’s Originality Guide:
Jaguar E-Type, said it best when he wrote, ‘’…the subject of
originality is a minefield and will always be the basis for


George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


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Not sure if this info is of any use but anyway…I have a pair
(new in box) Lucas rear lenses. Part number on the box is 54572373.
The box is labeled “Lucas service part” They have Philips or
Posidrive (not sure which) screws made captive by the use of rubber
washers. As I say, they are new in box.

If any of this info is of use I’ll be glad to send pics to anyone who
wants to see it.On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Stevenson Robert bobanddarl@comcast.net wrote:

Good point about later production Lucas parts! As you know the Lucas boxes
these parts came in during that era were dated and that’s why I mentioned
dated boxes. Mind your P’s & Q’s at the AGM!
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.

On Mar 7, 2014, at 9:44 AM, George Camp wrote:

In reply to a message from Jaghappy sent Thu 6 Mar 2014:

Ok try this on for size. J30 (3.8L E-Type parts manual)
lists the screw for front and rear turn lenses as #8606)
and J37 (4.2L Parts Manual) lists #8606. In both manuals
(esp. so in the 3.8) they are clearly illustrated as slot
screws. NOS parts marked #8606 are slotted. Lucas provided
the screws and lenses for replacement. What Lucas included
years later is suspect as they were providing the
aftermarket and not exclusively Jaguar. I also think there
is some confusion on this issue as Jaguar did change the
type of screw that held the headlamp rings from Slotted to
Pozidrive (clearly detailed in bulletins). Hope this helps!

The original message included these comments:

I believe Philip Porter in his book, Collector’s Originality Guide:
Jaguar E-Type, said it best when he wrote, ‘’…the subject of
originality is a minefield and will always be the basis for


George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


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Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


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Hi Les,
If the box is not dated it’s not of the era that we are concerned
with, but nice offer anyway!
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:18 AM, Les Halls wrote:

Not sure if this info is of any use but anyway…I have a pair
(new in box) Lucas rear lenses. Part number on the box is 54572373.
The box is labeled “Lucas service part” They have Philips or
Posidrive (not sure which) screws made captive by the use of rubber
washers. As I say, they are new in box.

If any of this info is of use I’ll be glad to send pics to anyone who
wants to see it.

On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Stevenson Robert <@Robert_and_Darlene_S> wrote:

Good point about later production Lucas parts! As you know the
Lucas boxes
these parts came in during that era were dated and that’s why I
mentioned
dated boxes. Mind your P’s & Q’s at the AGM!
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.

On Mar 7, 2014, at 9:44 AM, George Camp wrote:

In reply to a message from Jaghappy sent Thu 6 Mar 2014:

Ok try this on for size. J30 (3.8L E-Type parts manual)
lists the screw for front and rear turn lenses as #8606)
and J37 (4.2L Parts Manual) lists #8606. In both manuals
(esp. so in the 3.8) they are clearly illustrated as slot
screws. NOS parts marked #8606 are slotted. Lucas provided
the screws and lenses for replacement. What Lucas included
years later is suspect as they were providing the
aftermarket and not exclusively Jaguar. I also think there
is some confusion on this issue as Jaguar did change the
type of screw that held the headlamp rings from Slotted to
Pozidrive (clearly detailed in bulletins). Hope this helps!

The original message included these comments:

I believe Philip Porter in his book, Collector’s Originality Guide:
Jaguar E-Type, said it best when he wrote, ‘’…the subject of
originality is a minefield and will always be the basis for


George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


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Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


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I don’t see anything on either box that looks like a date, at least
not in the tradtional manner, there are however, numbers such as 480
and 380 on each box (one number on each). I suppose at least it would
confirm George’s point about cross-head screws being provided with
replacement parts by Lucas.

Also, just to muddy the waters a little more…I also have two
compete but used rear light assy’s…one has the cross-head screws
and one has “flat or slightly rounded” slotted screws. Both look old
and unmolested.On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Stevenson Robert bobanddarl@comcast.net wrote:

Hi Les,
If the box is not dated it’s not of the era that we are concerned
with, but nice offer anyway!
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.

On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:18 AM, Les Halls wrote:

Not sure if this info is of any use but anyway…I have a pair
(new in box) Lucas rear lenses. Part number on the box is 54572373.
The box is labeled “Lucas service part” They have Philips or
Posidrive (not sure which) screws made captive by the use of rubber
washers. As I say, they are new in box.

If any of this info is of use I’ll be glad to send pics to anyone who
wants to see it.

On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Stevenson Robert bobanddarl@comcast.net wrote:

Good point about later production Lucas parts! As you know the Lucas
boxes
these parts came in during that era were dated and that’s why I mentioned
dated boxes. Mind your P’s & Q’s at the AGM!
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.

On Mar 7, 2014, at 9:44 AM, George Camp wrote:

In reply to a message from Jaghappy sent Thu 6 Mar 2014:

Ok try this on for size. J30 (3.8L E-Type parts manual)
lists the screw for front and rear turn lenses as #8606)
and J37 (4.2L Parts Manual) lists #8606. In both manuals
(esp. so in the 3.8) they are clearly illustrated as slot
screws. NOS parts marked #8606 are slotted. Lucas provided
the screws and lenses for replacement. What Lucas included
years later is suspect as they were providing the
aftermarket and not exclusively Jaguar. I also think there
is some confusion on this issue as Jaguar did change the
type of screw that held the headlamp rings from Slotted to
Pozidrive (clearly detailed in bulletins). Hope this helps!

The original message included these comments:

I believe Philip Porter in his book, Collector’s Originality Guide:
Jaguar E-Type, said it best when he wrote, ‘’…the subject of
originality is a minefield and will always be the basis for


George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


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Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


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Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


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Hi Les,
In an email message from Jim, 1-14-2002, he still had a few original
Lucas boxes and the ones marked 10/68. 9/69 & 2/80 all contained
posidrive screws. Does anyone know when Lucas quit putting a date on
their replacement part boxes?
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.On Mar 7, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Les Halls wrote:

I don’t see anything on either box that looks like a date, at least
not in the tradtional manner, there are however, numbers such as 480
and 380 on each box (one number on each). I suppose at least it would
confirm George’s point about cross-head screws being provided with
replacement parts by Lucas.

Also, just to muddy the waters a little more…I also have two
compete but used rear light assy’s…one has the cross-head screws
and one has “flat or slightly rounded” slotted screws. Both look old
and unmolested.

On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Stevenson Robert <@Robert_and_Darlene_S> wrote:

Hi Les,
If the box is not dated it’s not of the era that we are
concerned
with, but nice offer anyway!
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.

On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:18 AM, Les Halls wrote:

Not sure if this info is of any use but anyway…I have a pair
(new in box) Lucas rear lenses. Part number on the box is 54572373.
The box is labeled “Lucas service part” They have Philips or
Posidrive (not sure which) screws made captive by the use of rubber
washers. As I say, they are new in box.

If any of this info is of use I’ll be glad to send pics to anyone
who
wants to see it.

On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Stevenson Robert <@Robert_and_Darlene_S> wrote:

Good point about later production Lucas parts! As you know the
Lucas
boxes
these parts came in during that era were dated and that’s why I
mentioned
dated boxes. Mind your P’s & Q’s at the AGM!
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.

On Mar 7, 2014, at 9:44 AM, George Camp wrote:

In reply to a message from Jaghappy sent Thu 6 Mar 2014:

Ok try this on for size. J30 (3.8L E-Type parts manual)
lists the screw for front and rear turn lenses as #8606)
and J37 (4.2L Parts Manual) lists #8606. In both manuals
(esp. so in the 3.8) they are clearly illustrated as slot
screws. NOS parts marked #8606 are slotted. Lucas provided
the screws and lenses for replacement. What Lucas included
years later is suspect as they were providing the
aftermarket and not exclusively Jaguar. I also think there
is some confusion on this issue as Jaguar did change the
type of screw that held the headlamp rings from Slotted to
Pozidrive (clearly detailed in bulletins). Hope this helps!

The original message included these comments:

I believe Philip Porter in his book, Collector’s Originality
Guide:
Jaguar E-Type, said it best when he wrote, ‘’…the subject of
originality is a minefield and will always be the basis for


George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


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Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


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Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


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In reply to a message from George Camp sent Fri 7 Mar 2014:

George,
Well done that man, to use an Englishman�s expression. I
think we are almost there-indeed with an official Jaguar
publication (a primary source of information). We still
have a little ground to cover however. I presently do not
have access to J30, but J37 does not illustrate the screw
head. It illustrates the back of the screw. Taking a
magnifying glass to the illustration (p. 276; plate 55,
spare 20- stop/tail lamp lens screw) shows a thick line
drawn between the two curvatures defining the screw head,
suggesting a slot through the head. A close look at spare
11 (front side lamp screws) shows a small indention in the
curved line defining the head, again suggesting a slot in
the head. Unfortunately, the illustration does not show the
face of the head as it does for spare 38 (number plate
lamp) of that same plate, clearly illustrating a slotted
screw head. I have posted (link below) a close up of J37
page 276, plate 55, which illustrates the back of the screw
heads described above. We are deep in the weeds, but if I
may, not out of the woods yet. Can you post the applicable
J30 illustration clearly showing the face of the slotted
screw head? With this information, I think one can
reasonably assume that Jaguar met for slotted screws at
least be installed on the SI 3.8 cars. I believe many agree
that Lucas changed to Phillips screws at some point time-
but when? What chassis number? Even an approximate date
would be helpful. Without this documentation, one has to
fall back on what we know and have already agreed upon
(forgive me for this presumption on my part)- that
secondary respected sources, whose cars show, that both
slotted and Phillips screws (Lucas supplied of course)
appear to have been installed on the S1 E-Types (see posted
photos). This unfortunately could be scrutinized as
possibly somewhat of an arbitrary judgment. On the other
hand, J30 and J37 however definitely provide justification
for slotted screw heads and should be given more weight in
terms of defining authenticity- do you agree? This may be
all we have, for now. Before the door is closed on this
issue, I believe continued research and dialog is needed
that would benefit our understanding of this issue and hope
that Jaguar historians take on this challenge some day.
For now, if may I so bold to suggest, (providing J30
clearly shows the slotted screw head) that the JCNA Series
1 E-Type Judge’s Guide page14, Parking & Brake Lens Screws,
reference the appropriate pages of J30 and J37. There are
no references currently under this section of the guide.

At last, I believe that question remains, for now anyway.
Is it possible Lucus indiscriminately supplied both slotted
and Philips lens screws for the SI E-type?

http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1394253536--
The original message included these comments:

In reply to a message from Jaghappy sent Thu 6 Mar 2014:
Ok try this on for size. J30 (3.8L E-Type parts manual)
lists the screw for front and rear turn lenses as #8606)
and J37 (4.2L Parts Manual) lists #8606. In both manuals
(esp. so in the 3.8) they are clearly illustrated as slot


Tom K., 1966 E-Type Coupe
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In reply to a message from Jaghappy sent Sat 8 Mar 2014:

I have no right to post images from J30 as it is still
copyrighted. I think you missed the point that the J30
clearly shows slotted screws and the part number did not
change in the 4.2L catalog. I also am not sure that the
point of what Lucas provided aftermarket and what Jaguar
provided could be different in the screws provided. As far
as the JCNA guide you will need to take that up with Bob S.
who has requested you contact him. I also believe you may
have missed the statement that NOS under the correct part
number are slotted not Pozidrive.–
The original message included these comments:

may, not out of the woods yet. Can you post the applicable
J30 illustration clearly showing the face of the slotted
screw head? With this information, I think one can
reasonably assume that Jaguar met for slotted screws at
least be installed on the SI 3.8 cars. I believe many agree
that Lucas changed to Phillips screws at some point time-
but when? What chassis number? Even an approximate date
For now, if may I so bold to suggest, (providing J30
clearly shows the slotted screw head) that the JCNA Series
1 E-Type Judge’s Guide page14, Parking & Brake Lens Screws,
reference the appropriate pages of J30 and J37. There are


George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
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