[E-Type] Timing chain/timiing pulley question

E-Type
1

I am trying to check my valve timing after doing an upper/lower
chain replacement. First, my car is an early '69 with the
timing indicator bolted to the pan. At this moment I have the
distributor rotor pointed approximately to the firing position
for the #1 cylinder. I have checked the cylinder for TDC (yes,
I know that #1 is the one next to the firewall) and I have the
cam setting tool properly seated in its slot on the driver’s
side cam. The only issue that I have is that the timing pulley
is showing its markings on the driver’s side of the engine
facing the left wheel instead of facing the floor i.e. at 3
o’clock instead of 6. I did find an excellent tutorial on
checking the timing over at Harvey’s Newhill Garage site and
following that, I am now stumped. He did mention that later 4.2
engines had their timing markers on the side of the engine,
although I have no idea about what constitutes ‘‘later’’.

So, do I have everything lined up correctly for the cam tool to
register properly? Could I have a ‘‘later’’ engine and am just
missing something? Does anyone have any expertise in this area?

Thanks,

Bob–
'69 2+2-Big Red, '69 OTS-Priscilla, '99 XK8-Othello
Mantua NJ, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

2

In reply to a message from Robert Moore sent Tue 7 Apr 2015:

Bob,

My understanding is that the timing pointer was moved to the
exhaust side of the timing cover for all Series 2 cars that
did not have Power Steering or A/C. I believe that those with
Power Steering and/or A/C have the pointer at the bottom
(presumably the pointer would not be visible at the side). How
this relates to your car, I can’t tell, not knowing whether it
has PS or A/C.

-David–
http://tinyurl.com/b4fdupp XK140MC OTS, S2 XKE OTS, XK8 OTS
Monterey CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

3

In reply to a message from Robert Moore sent Tue 7 Apr 2015:

Where were the timing marks before you too the old chains off?–
Andrew B. '67 S1 & S1.5 FHCs,'64 S1 OTS www.projectetype.com
Adelaide, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

4

In reply to a message from abowie sent Tue 7 Apr 2015:

To clarify; My 2+2 has A/C and there is a timing marker bolted
to the pan, which is what is making the pulley position
confusing to me. Since the Woodruff key sets the pulley’s
position, I can’t see how I could be messing things up.

I did not do a timing check before removing the old chains
since it did start up and run just fine, other than the noises.
The car had a lower timing chain rattle when I bought it and
other than verifying that the engine was good with a
compression check I’ve not run the engine for fear of doing
damage-all of which was cheerfully reflected in the price, btw.
As it turned out the lower timing chain tensioner had failed
and had worn to the extent that the tensioner had actually
fallen out and was lying in the pan. Weird, I know. As a
precaution I decided to fit new upper and lower chains with the
new tensioner. Now that the chains are on I want to confirm the
timing before re-assembly.

Bob–
'69 2+2-Big Red, '69 OTS-Priscilla, '99 XK8-Othello
Mantua NJ, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

5

There are TWO woodruff keys in the crank/pulley system. Can someone verify that for me??
LLoyd

“What terrifies religious extremists like the Taliban are not American tanks or bombs or bullets, it’s a girl with a book.”
Malala Yousafzai----- Original Message -----
In reply to a message from abowie sent Tue 7 Apr 2015:

To clarify; My 2+2 has A/C and there is a timing marker bolted
to the pan, which is what is making the pulley position
confusing to me. Since the Woodruff key sets the pulley’s
position, I can’t see how …

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

6

In reply to a message from LLoyd (a rithmetician) sent Wed 8 Apr 2015:

Lloyd, there is only one notch and one Woodruff key on mine.

Bob–
'69 2+2-Big Red, '69 OTS-Priscilla, '99 XK8-Othello
Mantua NJ, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

7

In reply to a message from davidxk sent Tue 7 Apr 2015:

David - my 69 does not have AC or PS and the timing mark was at the
bottom of the pulley.

Bob - if your pulley TDC marker is is at the side (3 or 9 oclock)
And your cam notches are at the top you are way off on your cam
timing. Double check that what you’re seeing IS the TDC marker.

You’re in dangerous territory here. If you’ve turned the engine
over you may have bent a valve. Do not turn the engine over if you
have not already.

Loosen the tensioner, Pull your cam sprockets off, remove the cams.
Get back to TDC, firing on #1 without losing or jaming the chain.
Three handed job. The distributor rotor will be around 10-11 o
clock when #1 fires. (the cams and Dist move at half speed compared
to crank). Re-set the cams, sprockets, tensioner in place. You
can’t be too far off when done.

I have a Bentley reprint of the official Jaguar workshop manual. I
Highly recommend it. If I take the time to read it I won’t go wrong.
Good luck
Dave–
1969 BRG OTS
Skaneateles, NY, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

8

In reply to a message from David Ahlers sent Wed 8 Apr 2015:

Is it possible that the crank pulley is bad and the damper
has turned on the pulley? (i.e. that the rubber is no longer
bonded to both parts)–
2000 XJ8,'67 E- OTS, '76 XJ12, '89 XJS Conv. 99 XK8, 04 VD.
Simi Valley, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

9

In reply to a message from David Ahlers sent Wed 8 Apr 2015:

Dave,

There is at least one other thread in the archives that
reports the same issue - namely a '69 without AC or PS with
the timing marker on the sump. In that thread, George Camp
identified the engine numbers where the switch took place in
1968. That said, it does appear to be the exception rather
than the rule, and there are many possible explanations
about how that could have come to pass - e.g. car used to
have PS or AC and no longer does; engine is not original;
damper/sump not original etc. As I recall, the case I found
in the archives was of a one-owner car with a known history,
so these explanations did not seem to apply. In Bob’s case,
I agree with you that caution is the key. Try to find out
where TDC really is and go from there.

-David–
The original message included these comments:

David - my 69 does not have AC or PS and the timing mark was at the
bottom of the pulley.

–
http://tinyurl.com/b4fdupp XK140MC OTS, S2 XKE OTS, XK8 OTS
Monterey CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

10

Seems to me (after I think about it) there is one on the crank itself that goes into the cone shaped piece, and one in the cone that connect it to the pulley.
Mine is a late sII, and has A/C (which shouldn’t make a difference…)
LLoyd

“What terrifies religious extremists like the Taliban are not American tanks or bombs or bullets, it’s a girl with a book.”
Malala Yousafzai----- Original Message -----
In reply to a message from LLoyd (a rithmetician) sent Wed 8 Apr 2015:

Lloyd, there is only one notch and one Woodruff key on mine.

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

11

…oh, and P.S. too also, and in addition.

“What terrifies religious extremists like the Taliban are not American tanks or bombs or bullets, it’s a girl with a book.”
Malala Yousafzai----- Original Message -----
Seems to me (after I think about it) there is one on the crank itself that goes into the cone shaped piece, and one in the cone that connect it to the pulley.
Mine is a late sII, and has A/C (which shouldn’t make a difference…)
LLoyd

“What terrifies religious extremists like the Taliban are not American tanks or bombs or bullets, it’s a girl with a book.”
Malala Yousafzai
----- Original Message -----
In reply to a message from LLoyd (a rithmetician) sent Wed 8 Apr 2015:

Lloyd, there is only one notch and one Woodruff key on mine.

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

12

In reply to a message from davidxk sent Wed 8 Apr 2015:

David
After checking full advance at 4000 rpm from underneath the car,
nose 4 inches from the pulley and other spinning parts… (on jack
stands), I immediatley installed an XJ side pointer.

After 40-50 years of multiple owners it’s hard to tell whats OEM
any longer. George provides a valuable service for those of us who
are after originality. I think my car’s an early 1969 vin# IR10836.

I guess back in the day labor to dig a ‘‘mechanic’s pit’’ was cheaper
than a hydralic lift. I think insurance companies wanted service
stations to do away with the old pit to work on the underpinnings.
Cars and people falling in. AND timing should be a one man job
anyway.

Anyway we need to hear back from Bob on the TDC conundrum.
Dave–
1969 BRG OTS
Skaneateles, NY, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

13

In reply to a message from Robert Moore sent Tue 7 Apr 2015:

Bob,

Sounds like a PO fitted a later damper or your timing
pointer disappeared. In any event, all that matters for
valve timing is that #1 is at TDC and the cams are fitted
with the notches up and the timing plate fits. The later
damper marks are for confirming ignition timing and if you
have verified TDC, you can chose between fitting the
correct pointer for your damper or cutting a new notch for
the bottom pointer. How far did you disassemble the
engine, was the head off or the distributor drive out ?
Your rotor looks like it is pointing to #6. Make sure you
unlock the new tensioner…

Paul–
The original message included these comments:

So, do I have everything lined up correctly for the cam tool to
register properly? Could I have a ‘‘later’’ engine and am just
missing something? Does anyone have any expertise in this area?
Thanks,

–
PS
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

14

In reply to a message from PS sent Wed 8 Apr 2015:

Ok, so I took pictures of everything, including the cam timing
gauge on both inlet and exhaust cams and showed them to my Jag
mechanic. His judgement is that the exhaust cam is a bit too
advanced and after I confirm that the #6 is TDC, the best
course is to loosen the cams, set the pulley to zero and reset
the cams. He likes the cams to both be spot on. I guess that I
am in for a long weekend. This is digging a bit deeper than I
wanted to and I just know that I am going to have a LOT of
questions/hand-holding needs. etc., etc.

Fingers crossed XX.

Bob–
'69 2+2-Big Red, '69 OTS-Priscilla, '99 XK8-Othello
Mantua NJ, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

15

In reply to a message from Robert Moore sent Wed 8 Apr 2015:

I am confused by this advice.
How does he propose you set the pulley to zero?
How does he explain that having a bit too much advance on one
cam causing your pulley to be about 90 degrees out?
To me, if you indeed have #1 piston at TDC and you have the
correct timing pulley fitted the timing marks MUST be in the
correct place.
That they are not indicates either (most likely) that you have
the wrong or a broken pulley, or that you are not on TDC. Cam
position of itself will not affect this. Should you correct the
pulley position by rotating the crank and then try to set the
cams to TDC you will definitely damage valves.
My guess is that you have a later pulley fitted. It is also
possible that your pulley has suffered failure of the rubber
component and has slipped.
Before you do anything, take your pulley off and take it to the
Jag shop. Compare it to a known, correct pulley.–
The original message included these comments:

mechanic. His judgement is that the exhaust cam is a bit too
advanced and after I confirm that the #6 is TDC, the best
course is to loosen the cams, set the pulley to zero and reset
the cams. He likes the cams to both be spot on. I guess that I

–
Andrew B. '67 S1 & S1.5 FHCs,'64 S1 OTS www.projectetype.com
Adelaide, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

16

In reply to a message from Robert Moore sent Tue 7 Apr 2015:

First of all my friend you must determine that the #1
cylinder as well as the # 6 cylinder is at TDC on the
compression stroke. Just because the cylinder it at the top
of the stroke doesn’t mean its on the compression stroke
which is mandatory. If not the timing will be 180 degree
out. In addition with the #6 cylinder at TDC on the
compression stroke the distributor rotor should be
approximately pointing in the 4:00 position. Normally our
engines are always timed using the 3^ cylinder as the
timing reference.Then the harmonic balancer should be
setting on TDC and the cam notches in the proper position
for the timing cam tool. It sound to me like the cylinders
were at TDC but 180 degrees out. With the # 6 cylinder on
TDC an the compression stroke the timing indicator on the
harmonic balancer has to be indicating TDC as well. It
can’t be any other.–
Dick Russ
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

17

In reply to a message from TrickyDicky sent Thu 9 Apr 2015:

Sorry about the error I made in my response Where you see
the cylinder 3^ that should be cylinder # 6. Hit the shift
key in error–
Dick Russ
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

18

In reply to a message from abowie sent Wed 8 Apr 2015:

OK, mystery solved. I do have a later pulley. After reading all
of the various comments-and let me say that the is the real
value of this forum.

Some time has passed since I started this project, fitted the
chains and got to the point where things needed to be adjusted.
Well, actually, it’s been years. Other things have intervened
and this project just was not high on the list. When I started
this project up again I reviewed my notes and pictures and my
manuals. Unfortunately I didn’t have a good enough shot of the
engine to see what I really needed to see, and that is that
there was a timing indicator bolted to the side of the front
cover. The mention that the timing indicator had been moved to
the side of the engine sent me thinking. I went back and pulled
the box with the little baggies that I have stored away with
the bits from the engine and sure enough, in the bottom of the
bag I found the indicator.

Back to my mechanic with new pics.

The thing that was throwing me off was that the pan also has an
indicator bolted to it, although it was bent down and I
remember straightening it. OK, so once I temporarily put the
2nd indicator back on to the side of the engine and made sure
that #6 was at TDC, everything lined up and I took pics. My
mechanic looked at the pictures and said that it is right on
point. Yes, I do have the exhaust cam running a bit late and
yes, I will want to adjust it, but in the end, the engine is
basically in time.

I feel so much better now!

So what this means is that this car came from the factory with
both timing indicators. The difference is that later engines
are fitted with a different balancer, and the way to tell the
difference is that the position of the timing scale stamped on
the pulley face does not line up with the woodruff key. My
mechanic said that the woodruff key slots on both the crank and
the pulley cone for all 4.2’s should be straight up and down
when the #6 is at TDC. At that point the cams should be
adjusted with the cam tool.

So, mystery solved-and thanks for the comments because I would
have never thought to search the parts bags for a second
indicator. And, if I had tried to time the engine based on the
pan indicator alone I would have destroyed the valves. This is
good stuff to know!

Bob–
'69 2+2-Big Red, '69 OTS-Priscilla, '99 XK8-Othello
Mantua NJ, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

19

In reply to a message from Robert Moore sent Thu 9 Apr 2015:

Excellent outcome.
It was not uncommon to replace the original pulley with a later
one and fit the second timing indicator. This makes setting the
engine timing much easier as you can actually see the timing mark
with a timing light without having to lie under the front of the
car.
I have a second indicator fitted on one of my cars. I have stamped
an extra set of timing marks into the pulley at that point.–
The original message included these comments:

So what this means is that this car came from the factory with
both timing indicators. The difference is that later engines

–
Andrew B. '67 S1 & S1.5 FHCs,'64 S1 OTS www.projectetype.com
Adelaide, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomo
Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php