In reply to a message from mouton sent Mon 28 Apr 2008:
How about a thought-experiment?
We start with an E Type with Wilwood fronts and rears inoperative
because of dang diff oil. Total braking? Very weak, significantly
worse than the stock setup. Don’t believe me, try it!
OK, we improve the rears just a little, maybe they are now 1/2
effective. Is overall braking better? Dang right it is.
So we keep improving the rears, and the overall braking gets better
and better, agree?
At what point does the braking become worse again?
Note that if the rears are much more powerful than the fronts the
overall braking effect is much less – as soon as the rears lock up
you are basically back at the no rear brakes situation.
So what’s the crossover point, where overall braking is maximum?
If you don’t think that’s at the point where both wheels lock at
the same time, you’ll have to explain that to us.
True you can set your brakes up pretty much any old way and not
die, heck I drove without much of any brakes on my E Type for a
year or more (no dough). But I thought we were in the quest
for ‘‘better braking’’ here.
Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from mouton sent Mon 28 Apr 2008:
Jerry, you’re beginning to demagogue me, and at that point,
I’ll bow out.
You misconstrued my initial question, tossed facts at me I
aleady knew, but then FINALLY answered my question. For one,
I never said I installed the Wilwoods to increase braking;
I did it 'cuz it was a BOATLOAD less expensive then fixing
my old rusted Dunlops. Please don’t put words in my
mouth…I do that fine for myself!
So…sayonara, subject.–
The original message included these comments:
So you’re saying that you understand all the whats and whys, but
then say it doesn’t work that way for you? Of course if that setup
works for you, then have at it!
Captain Kirk, ya canna’ change the laws of physics! ; -)
Kind of funny to install Wilwoods to increase braking, then because
of imbalance actually reduce the effective braking… What’s that
about?
–
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Lynn,
Who’s selling it for that price? I looked on Mike Fs site and he’s
only offering the Neg ground units.
pauls 67ots
Hi Folks,
I know this has come up recently but I can’t find it in the archives,
what is your take on the pertronix distributor, it claims to have the
appropriate advance curve (although it doesn’t list specs, total
advance etc) and is cheap $179 +shipping. Now that I have the Su’s
I’m thinking it’s time to get rid of the old D22 (without vacuum
advance). Thoughts?
Cheers,
Lynn
68ots 3su
<<<<<<<<<<From: Lynn Gardner lgardner28@cableone.net
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Pertronixs Distributor
In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Mon 28 Apr 2008:
But Wiggles, we’re not talking about you here – we’re talking
about what other people installing Wilwoods might want to do.
I thought your original question was ‘‘I don’t really understand why
this needs to be done’’, or words to that effect. Sorry if I
misunderstood. I am pretty sure there are others who are really
interested in the answer to this question and I know your words
were of much use to them.
Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Tue 29 Apr 2008:
Jerry,
In general I agree with what you say. When I designed and built
the disk brakes on the 47 Desoto, I had a heck of a time getting
the front to rear balance correct.
I ended up using residuals valves of different values for the disk
on the fronts and the 12’’ drums on the rears. In addition, I used
a residual valve as well as an adjustable proportioning valve.
After a couple of days at 5:00 AM at Ocean Beach, I finally got the
balance correct.
I have not gotten to the stage in my 63 Coupe yet of doing the
brakes. I have a kit from Bill Terry for vented fronts. It seems
that you recommend using the larger rear Pots on the rear. Do you
use a solid or drilled rear rotor?
Also, given that the early cars use two master cylinders using a
balance bar arrangement, is the bar adjustable or does someone make
and replacement bar that is?
One can always install a proportioning valve to fine tune the front
to rear balance.
James–
James 1963 XKE Coupe
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Lynn Gardner sent Mon 28 Apr 2008:
Hi Lynn
I drive a 63 coupe converted to negative ground. I received my
Pertronixs Distributor from Mike Frank and it installed without a
hitch. The difference in performance, start up and throughout the
RPM range confirmed I made the right decision. I would reccommend
this upgrade to anyone who was interested in electronic ignition.
This upgrade has really made a difference!!!
Good luck Lynn with the Pertronics, you will not be disappointed.
on another topic: I removed my Tach from the facia and when I
reinstalled the tach with the 3,000rpm at the 12 o’clock position
the clock looks off center. When I centered the Tach so that the
clock is at the 12 o’clock position the 3,00 rpm is off center to
the left. Am I looking at it wrong?
In reply to a message from SFjames sent Tue 29 Apr 2008:
Your balance is adjustable by altering the clevis position on the
mastercylinder with the threaded rod I believe. The bar itself is
not adjustable. But I think the stock components work well if you
follow normal set-up guidance.
My D-type uses a non-servo set-up with the two masters pressed by
clevises attached to each end of a threaded rod pivoted in the
middle on the upper end of the pedal lever. By adjusting the
effective leverage (distance from the pivot point) for each side
(or only one side, leaving the other static) I can alter the amount
of the overal pedal effort which is transmitted to each of the two
master cylinders. This way I can tinker with brake balance at will.
Which just means I have more scope to screw it up
Pete–
The original message included these comments:
Also, given that the early cars use two master cylinders using a
balance bar arrangement, is the bar adjustable or does someone make
and replacement bar that is?
–
66 2+2, 78 RAM D-type replica
Cambridge, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from SFjames sent Tue 29 Apr 2008:
James,
Your question suggests you believe drilled rotors offer some
performance improvement? Drilled rotors are a fashion statement,
nothing more. In terms of braking performance, they offer nothing
one way or the other.
The 3.8 balance bar is not really adjustable, and I don’t think
there’s enough room to make it so, without re-designing pretty much
all of the master cylinder linkage and mounting hardware. To
change the balance, you have to be able to move the center pivot
point one way or the other, and I just don’t think there’s enough
room, in there to do that effectively. A proportioning valve will
get you pretty much the same end result anyway, with easier
adjustability.–
The original message included these comments:
I have not gotten to the stage in my 63 Coupe yet of doing the
brakes. I have a kit from Bill Terry for vented fronts. It seems
that you recommend using the larger rear Pots on the rear. Do you
use a solid or drilled rear rotor?
Also, given that the early cars use two master cylinders using a
balance bar arrangement, is the bar adjustable or does someone make
and replacement bar that is?
James
–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Hi Frank,
That’s good to know, I’ve been debating on the EDIS (ray and Mike’s
homemade setup), the 123 unit or the Pertronix dizzy. The advantage
of the pertronix unit is the price, the 123 has the advantage of all
electronic adjustable curves, and the EDIS has the bragging factor
(look what I built;-). For the time being I’m going to wait and see
how my oil sample comes back (I’ve had engine issues in the past and
would like some reassurance that those are behind me), then I’ll
start looking pretty hard at fixing up the ignition issues. I really
do appreciate your input on the pertronix dizzy, that price is really
fetching>
On the tach, mine is the newer style so I can’t really help much but
could the clock be rotated? It maybe your looking at it too hard?
Would anyone else notice? That’s my reference-would Ray Livingston
notice it if he were looking over my shoulder?
Cheers, and thanks again for the input.
Lynn
68ots 3su
73fhc 4zs
Boise IdOn Apr 29, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Bar-One wrote:
In reply to a message from Lynn Gardner sent Mon 28 Apr 2008:
Hi Lynn
I drive a 63 coupe converted to negative ground. I received my
Pertronixs Distributor from Mike Frank and it installed without a
hitch. The difference in performance, start up and throughout the
RPM range confirmed I made the right decision. I would reccommend
this upgrade to anyone who was interested in electronic ignition.
This upgrade has really made a difference!!!
Good luck Lynn with the Pertronics, you will not be disappointed.
on another topic: I removed my Tach from the facia and when I
reinstalled the tach with the 3,000rpm at the 12 o’clock position
the clock looks off center. When I centered the Tach so that the
clock is at the 12 o’clock position the 3,00 rpm is off center to
the left. Am I looking at it wrong?
In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Tue 29 Apr 2008:
Ray,
Given the very bad air movement in the rear…
I was wondering if any improvement in temperature could be gained
on the rotor with the holes.
Although the pads are small and therefore not as much hot gas build-
up is going on between the pad and the rotor…I would think that
it is possible that the holes could help the hot gas escape and
help a little bit with the rotor surface temperature.
I know that holes can increase the tendency for cracking so any
gain would have to be balanced off against that issue.
I known that Fred Phun’s treatise on brake systems does state that
holes can help with hot-gas and dust in the boundary layer between
the pad and the rotor in racing applications.
I had a set of brake drums drilled by C.H. Topping in Long Beach
for my 1964 Chrysler 300K and the difference was amazing.
I am not thinking that drilled rear rotors would help in a big way,
but if it lowered the temperature even 5% that would help a bit.
Best, James–
The original message included these comments:
Your question suggests you believe drilled rotors offer some
performance improvement? Drilled rotors are a fashion statement,
nothing more. In terms of braking performance, they offer nothing
one way or the other.
In reply to a message from SFjames sent Tue 29 Apr 2008:
James,
I’ve never seen any credible information that would lead me to
believe drilling solid rotors has any measurable effect on
temperature. There is, as you mention, a potential very small
advantage in providing for escape of gasses generated at the
pad/disc interface, but I’ve also never seen any information that
would lead me to believe that effect was measurable. To me, it
sounds more like a theoretical advantage that likely adds up to
squat in the real world. If you peruse some of the brake
manufacturers websites, most of them indicate cross-drilling is
nothing more than window dressing. If you want to improve braking,
put in vented rotors, and provide them with a good source of air.
And, for street use, I would still argue that if you are
experiencing brake fade, front or rear, with the stock setup, there
is something wrong with either your brake hardware, or your driving
style. I drive the hell out of my car, all up and down the coast,
and all over the CA mountains where I live, and I’ve never
experienced even a hint of fade. I’m sure JerryM will tell you the
same. The only place he’s had any problem whatsoever, is after
several laps at Laguna Seca.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from SFjames sent Tue 29 Apr 2008:
James,
That sounds like a real engineering project! Now riding in it it
seems as natural as cream. Sounds like you will have a similar
effort on the E Type.
I go completely stock on the brakes, so I am not one to get
recommendations from. CJ and other big front brakes providers seem
to recommend this, and it makes sense to me.
One thing is that in extreme use the issue is the rears rather then
the fronts, since with the heat they boil and as a result ALL the
brakes going away – the system is not redundant. So that’s the
first brake issue to solve. The factory recommended competition
rear air ducts is a good place to start, and Rick Korn (IIRC)
actually installed a Porsche 911 engine cooling fan inline with the
driveshaft to stir up the air there. I would assume vented rears
could be a big help, too. I bet Terry has a solution.
Of course if the car is only for street use, the stock brakes are
excellent if well maintained and used frequently. Even on track at
Laguna they were great until the rears went. When I used hi-temp
fluid the rears held up, at least for the 20 minute sessions I was
doing – but the rubber dust covers on the pots melted! However,
this is pretty usual on track cars like the M3 lightweight I crewed
for at the 24 hours of Thunderhill (race winner!).
The balance bar is not adjustable and I am not aware of any
aftermarket, but making one with different offsets or adjustable
would be pretty simple if you could get Ray to make one ; -)
Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Tue 29 Apr 2008:
Petah, in an XKE, there is no ‘‘Wiggle room’’…ask George Cohn!
Wiggy petty much fills up any driver space in an e-type!
Doesn’t need the seat belts because the steering wheel might stop him
from being ejected if it doesn’t impale him first! I’m not sure the seat
belts in my OTS were long enough to buckle around him anyway.
In reply to a message from George Cohn sent Wed 30 Apr 2008:
They weren’t…
Sure was more fun than a wet squirrel upside da head,
blasting thru the quiet neighborhood in yers!–
The original message included these comments:
Wiggy petty much fills up any driver space in an e-type!
Doesn’t need the seat belts because the steering wheel might stop him
from being ejected if it doesn’t impale him first! I’m not sure the seat
belts in my OTS were long enough to buckle around him anyway.
–
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from George Cohn sent Wed 30 Apr 2008:
George,
He managed to get my seatbelts on OK. But you’re right, he is
kind of a ‘‘press fit’’ into an E-type… Must be fun watching him
get into a coupe! :-)–
The original message included these comments:
Wiggy petty much fills up any driver space in an e-type!
Doesn’t need the seat belts because the steering wheel might stop him
from being ejected if it doesn’t impale him first! I’m not sure the seat
belts in my OTS were long enough to buckle around him anyway.
George Cohn
–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Wed 30 Apr 2008:
‘’…he is kind of a ‘‘press fit’’ into an E-type…’’
Um, does that make me a fuel tank?
:):)–
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
