Etype bonnet alignment MAJOR problem

69 Coupe

Good day to all. I’ve been working on the restoration of my 69 for about 2 1/2 years now. About a year ago, during the complete teardown of my coupe, I discovered a small crack in the lower right frame. (The car had been wrapped and sitting for 35 years) I remembered that I had been driving it for a while after buying it and discovered that there was no nut on the lower right shock mount bolt. As a result, the wishbone arm was slightly bent rearward. I had to buy another arm, but I noticed a small crack in the lower frame member as a result of the added inward torque/stress since the rear arm was not attached properly. The frames were otherwise in excellent condition.

To make a long story short, after hours of research and a discussion with a retired lifelong “old-timer” welder, I bought some Safety-Silv 56% Flux Coated Silver Solder and using my Map Gas, solderd it up quite easily. The lower temp required to melt the Safety-Silv 56% Solder made the solder flow nicely and never came close to weakening the original brazing.

Only time will tell! I plan on keeping an eye on that section and if I see any problems, then I will be dissasembling the entire front end!!

I believe in fixing things, if possible, In these days of replacing everything rather than taking apart and fixing is crazy.

P.S. Had I seen signs of other problems, ie. rust rattling inside the tubes, etc etc, I would have replaced the frames, but I was secure with the condition other than the one small crack!

Mark
Murrieta, Ca.

Pekka, with your exhaustive work, and diligence, perhaps you shoukd write a technically-focused book, on the minutiae we all find interesting?

Id buy a copy!

Being the kind of person who loves factory tours and shows like How It’s Made, I’d love a really good work on manufacturing from body panel fabrication to loading the finished cars on the transporters and ships.

Just ran across this pic for a laugh!

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Lets see. :smile:

Banana Seat? Check.

Ape Hanger Handle Bars? Check.

Early 1970’s? Check.

I’d imagine that thing was a pig in the corners.

As you say, the bonnet support frame is constructed like the side frames, with very delicate tubes brazed with beautiful fillets to thicker mounting points and the cross tube for the actual hinge attachments and of course the rad support pressing. I suspect most of the bonnet support frame is Reynolds and only the picture frame is welded.

Even then I wouldn’t necessarily call it normal mild steel. It has a springiness and thin section that is built up in overlapping layers (like filo pastry? :slight_smile:) that seems different to common or garden MS. I have no evidence except eyes and feel but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if the picture frame was some kind of medium tensile steel, just not Reynolds 531.

AND oil pressure.

WHICH oil is the best.

Alternator, or generator?

Vredesteins, or ___________?

Points and condensor, or EDIS?

All well-ploughed ground…but it keeps the list lively!!!

Evidently there are still nuggets to be unearthed in the reploughing.

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Smooth ride over a curb though given the flex…The second wheel, well another story.

H,mmmm…Pretty cosmic thoughts on this one. I really doubt if Jaguar would waste money using a few different exotic alloys as they progressed towards the front of the car. I believe they supplied a true race car frame structure and tub that allowed the very clever and desperate racers to purchase or fabricate bolt on light weight parts, like an aluminum bonnet and subframe, without having to pull or support the drive train. I also believe the picture frames on these cars are built more by rolling it up like a Burrito…Or maybe folded like a Taco rather then a filo…Oh wait, being English, maybe assembled more as a Shepard’s Pie which takes a great deal of stacking…Then oven brazed, to keep things all in house without having to train workers to assemble and weld just a bonnet support!..“Good grief Charlie Brown! Its only common sense.” Which is not common anymore.

Forgot to mention. Engineers who design everything whether it be a simple lawn rake or race car rely on real time tests of strength and endurance.
Eyes and feelings of what things should be are a dream.

Couldn’t agree more about hard facts and data taking precedence over human senses when discussing an engineering issue. Don’t discount biology altogether though (not least because biomechanical sensors are very ‘hot’ these days, and getting hotter, metaphorically speaking).

You can feel the difference between different metals by handling identical gauge wire pieces, even if they look the same under an identical finish. Conversely one can normally see the difference between stainless fasteners and mild steel even if you can’t touch them. When you media blast the bonnet support frame and the main side frames, the triangulated tubular side sections of the bonnet support look identical in material and brazed construction.

Though appearances and feel are not at all conclusive, for the reasons you state, I would bet a few bob those side tubes are made of Reynolds tubing like the main frames. The picture frame is clearly made of different material. Having repaired several bent and peeled-open lower sections (the curse of ignorant jacking procedure) I doubt it’s a bargain-budget cheapest low-carbon steel, although the various attached brackets and radiator support strip probably are. I would, of course, change my opinion in a heart beat, if someone brought hard evidence to the party. But in the absence of certainty, whether it’s a cheap low carbon sheet chopped and folded for spot welding, or something like a medium carbon grade, is a matter of conjecture and opinion. Which is why good forums are so interesting.

You cant discount the toughness of mild steel though. Being in the collision business all my life and fabricating with much cheap mild steel, I have great respect for what it can withstand from vibration and impact. Plus you don’t have to be a scientist to weld it whether it be with a mig or a simple gas oxygen torch. Something interesting while were on the subject. Have you ever noticed how certain panels on all the Jags rot, and some don’t? Like inner and outer rockers, rear upper and lower wings, trunk floor, doors, plus the whole bonnet. Whereas the inner panels and rear frame section, center bulkhead forward including frame sections and bonnet support hold up extremely well. I don’t think this is coincidence. Jaguar engineers pick, choose and know exactly what alloys went into every square inch of every stamping in the car. I noticed this after I stripped the paint from a 57 Thunderbird on a rotisserie. After a couple days just from humidity all the typical panels that were prone to rot on the Bird turned orange completely up to the lead seams adjoining other panels that held to a clean steel grey color. Planned obsolescence. Mine is a 62 roadster. It was sinking in the ground when I bought it, although the floors were gone along with the bonnet and rockers. The original brake lines came off without heat and are actually reusable! Never had a fastener break either, not like on Corvettes where you need every trick in the book to get them out. Wrench in one hand, torch in the other. All manufacturers pick and choose what goes into there products. Nothing is by accident.

Often it ends up being the lowest bidder. :slight_smile: or the BIL syndrome. BIL works for a bolt company and gets the business.

The thing is, there are new owners of E Types all the time who have those same old questions. Doing a search does not always yield good answers, and the availability of the shop manual is not always understood. I was recently on the XK forum getting help with front brakes for an XK140 I’m involved with. I was unable to find the answers so I asked the forum folks some questions I knew must be common knowledge. I really appreciated the patient and gracious help I received. I got written directions, photos etc. I am very thankful for all the help I get. Mike Moore

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Yes, but they bid on specific grade requirements and tolerance standards set by the design engineers at Jaguar. I had an English manual for a 51 Triumph motorcycle when I was very young. I was surprised to see a few pages on the material, alloys and Rockwell tests on every component that made up the engine. Back then I assumed it was either steel, cast iron or aluminum the engine was built with.

THREAD DIVERSION IMMINENT…

Sounds like the little hardback Pitman manuals. A bit small, but beautifully illustrated - few photos. I can still smell the paper aroma.

The local library had long shelves of all the different models and at 13-14 I was desperate to learn everything about engines and bikes. The problem was, the very first one I borrowed was the LE Velocette. This was a 200cc transverse flat twin, monocoque framed, watercooled bike with shaft drive. I studied the pictures every which way and NONE of them looked like any bikes I had seen on the road, apart from the fact it had spoked wheels.

I honestly felt I knew less about BSA Bantams etc. after I’d read that manual than before I started. Thsnkfully, by the time I’d worked my way along the shelves I was back on track!

Pete

Thread reinstatement imminent…

So the parts don’t fit back together the the way they came apart. Now why might that be?

The bonnet and the bonnet frames can be covered separately, even though the same basic principle is at work - we are dealing with a steel spring.

People generally don’t look at stuff whilst it is working and think “How does that work?”, but they come here after it is broken or dismantled and want to go back to where they came from, which in this case is somewhere they didn’t know where they’d come from.

Both items act like a spring. In the case of the frames, they have been supporting a heavy weight for the last 45 years or so and have been subject to periodic vibration, twisting and g forces in excess of the static force of gravity when at rest. Unsurprisingly, the metal has to move to accommodate every bump in the road or it has to transmit the force through the structure into the bulkhead. The metal takes on a set which is inevitably different from day one and come restoration time, this 3D spring is unloaded and naturally tries to unwind. This is now a bit of a defined term, as it won’t unwind to where it came from because some of the metal is work hardened a bit and some of it is weakened by corrosion. It has been periodically heated up to the ambient temperature in the engine bay, bit by bit, but now it creeps back when cold. If you now shot blast it, apply a rust treatment inside and repaint it, it’ll be good as new, but it’ll be a different “new” and it’ll flex slightly differently to before and probably point its bonnet support hinges to a different place in three dimensions. Ally to that that people will maybe want to fit “upgrades”, like polybush suspension mounts which may transmit force differently or use “uprated” torsion bars which transmit a different proportion of forces into different parts of the structure when going over the same bumps as before.

So what about the bonnet. This starts life bolted to the frames in two points only and held pressed onto a strip of rubber at the bulkhead. Everything else is free to flex and move subject to being screwed together plus a little bit of lead loading at the front of the car after we lost the covered headlights. Just like the frames that it hangs from, it has been subject to heat cycling, twisting, corrosion and vibration for years and now it is going to be “restored”.

Mistake number one is that the hapless restorer dismantles the bonnet first into its sub components. The spring which was held together through thick and thin is now free to unwind without the constraints to movement that the other panels gave it. This isn’t a disaster so long as it never went past its Youngs modulus point, but if there is any crash damage, no matter how light, then this will unwound differently to how it was put in. How do you know that? Well the hapless restorer is about to shot blast the bonnet back to bare metal, piece by piece using probably a very aggressive medium like sand. If you were to say to someone, “Panel beat the paint off of this panel!”, they’d tell you you were insane, but this is exactly what countless people do. Sand will not only take the paint off, it will heat up the metal unevenly and you’ll end up with a subtly different curvature all over as the “spring” is being held differently and the warmest parts are now thinner and more flexible than the cold, as yet unblasted portions. It may look the same but it isn’t in three dimensions. Any latent crash damage will now pop out as all of that bondo which was keeping it rigid is removed. If it is corroded then the even curvature is now taken up by a kink in the metal around the new hole or holes.

In short, if you are going to shot blast metalwork, use a medium like garnet or plastic pellets as these are both far too soft to hurt the metal but impart enough energy to remove paint and filler and do this whilst the bonnet is still in one piece so it retains its current 3D geometry. (You can then dismantle it and do just the seams afterwards.) People don’t do this usually as it is more expensive. Also, it’ll flash rust in seconds, so follow the blaster with a hot zinc phosphate spray just behind the blaster.

If you adopt this approach, you just might have fewer and less serious alignment problems going forwards.

This is particularly important if you are going to replace some of the panels, e.g. with a brand new underpan plus second hand wings from another (maybe equally crash damaged) car.

Put bluntly, even reusing all of the original panels, if poorly treated from a physics standpoint during restoration, you can easily make it not fit. Heaven help those who cobble together something from multiple bonnets of dubious origin.

It can all be made to fit, but you’ll have to do some work before moving onto the paint stage. Sadly, many professionals are under pressure to work down to a price rather than up to a standard and that’s a subtly different ball game to be in.

kind regards
Marek

Probably an accident by PO, but my S1 was turned into a S1.25 with various parts. I redid it as an S1 with the monocoque Metalworks kit. I also used CJ’s hinges but still a bad fit at the cowl. I welded in an inch of bonnet at the cowl and then cut it back with a 4 1/2 grinder to have a perfect fit. Finally put 1/2 foam where the bonnet rubber sits and bonded over the gap. Then recut the seam. Pictures available if wanted.

In that case MarekH I’m fooked. :wink:

But I have faith! No rust and no damage to panels… a Christmas miracle maybe.