"Motorad" high-flow thermostats

Waxstat (made by Western Thomson, now Arlington/Magal) was the OE thermostat, the ones I’ve measured open to 42-43mm. If you can find them, that’s probably the best bet.

The Gates thermostat you want is 35mm cold. It’s 33188 (180F) or 33189 (190F). Most modern thermostats have about 8mm travel. The useful life of a thermostat degrades rapidly as stroke increases, so avoid anything with a long stroke.

Stroke%20v%20Life

I wouldn’t mess with adding height to the bypass port, nor would I extend the foot. It just makes no sense to do this. What would your objective be? If you insist on this mod, then bypass spring compression should be limited to 1-2mm, or the life of the thermostat will be reduced.

Wow! Where’d you get that chart? Astounding that anyone compiled the data, let alone created a graph.

Just the same, I have my doubts. Someone would need to explain to me why a longer stroke is so detrimental to life. It’s a plunger in a wax-filled capsule; make the capsule and the plunger longer, I dunno why it’d fail any sooner.

That said, I’m also not entirely sure the larger passage of the Motorad is a benefit. You’d think so, of course, but control valve dynamics – and this is a control valve – are complicated. It’s just possible that the larger valve could result in system instability where the temp ramps up and down. Or some such weirdness.

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My experience, documented in the archives and photo albums, was also that the thermostats tested extended 8mm. The reason for the altering the height of the bypass port is that if you have a thermostat which extends to 40mm and a bypass port which has a rough surface, then going this route gives a guaranteed tailored result, whereas simply replacing the thermostat, assuming you can get the right one, still leaves you with a sub-optimal solution.

Not everyone has the luxury of living in the USA with abundant choice of supply and cheap postage to the lower 48 states. Some people, e.g. in South Africa, have trouble with making payments out of the country and postage charges and import duties can be crippling.

Implicit in that graph, if it is a two footed thermostat, is that it becomes more of an on-off switch the shorter the stroke it has.

kind regards
Marek

IIRC, those bypass ports are a machined surface. We’ve had reports of rough ones due to corrosion, but apparently Jaguar’s original intent was that they be a good fit to the disc on the thermostat.

Indeed, being that they might be 50 years old, don’t be surprised if they are pitted and scored and not pristeen any more. As Mike pointed out in another thread, Porsche fitted an O-ring into the bypass seat.

kind regards
Marek

in true John John fassion …!

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A few responses:

The graph is from a study done by a thermostat manufacturer. I have lots and lots of unusual stuff I’ve collected while studying this problem, that’s why it’s going to be an E-book, rather than a simple post.

With regard to the Motorad, I’m not convinced there is any significant increase in flow path with their “high flow” thermostat. But fluid dynamics is sometimes non intuitive. Decreasing flow resistance reduces head, for example. Static pressure would drop as would velocity. The entire system was likely designed around optimizing the performance of the pump in some specific RPM range, so changing the diameter of the flow path may make things better in some respects and worse in others. Since we don’t have access to the numbers, for us it’s all an experiment. My guess is that it would improve high RPM performance at the expense of low speed. And even at that, it would only affect very high temperature performance, as the entire purpose of the thermostat is to reduce flow until the temperature is out of range. In this graph, “BEP” is best efficiency point, you can see what happens to head as flow increases beyond that point.

image

There’s a Volvo thermostat with a much larger poppet size that should be compatible. if you want to experiment with high flow, it’s from a 2007 Volvo C30 , Gates 34815. I wasn’t going to play with this one because the setpoint is 195F, so if anyone tries it I’d like to hear how it worked.

Marek has a good point about using an insert to repair a defective sealing surface, but that doesn’t apply if the extension is added to the thermostat. The lip of the bypass passage is especially subject to cavitation erosion because at low lift, the valve acts as a venturi: it’s a low pressure area when the system is at its hottest. Especially if you’re one of those “water cools better” folks, pits will be blasted out of the lip.

I also understand about local availability issues. I’ve been compiling a “library” of thermostats for the last few months, and I’ve bought almost as much postage as hardware. I have some Dayco thermostats coming from Australia, they look very promising on paper. Dayco seems to have a large number of applicable thermostats, but it’s hard to understand the differences from their website. We’ll see what we see.

Why would Volvo develop such a thing?

I do things differently,DUH!
1st those 100yr old design thermostats, with the foot /bypass valve just are not made for my needs!

around 40yrs ago living HOT Florida, NOW TEXAS 100F+,had alot of vehicles with overheat conditions, especially V12 jags,and some heavy/Bus equipment!

examined the factory cooling systems, all had some type of bypass when cold Yes needed in cold climates, but overheats when not needed!
i remembered that GM when coming out with the BBC,(big block chevy 7-8L engines), most all the big engines had overheat problems, in summer!
seems that the old type thermostats with engines with hi flow/pressures cooling pumps, would try to push the main valve closed , and try to hold the bypass open 1/2 way along with 1/2 way for the actual valve! racing and long distance hi rpm they would eventualy overheat!

so here is what did to some of the engines cooling system,(brand new engines,not all packed up with debris).
opened the bypass hole and NPT pipe tapped the bypass ,put a 3/16 hole in center of brass plug , now very little flow in bypass system,need a little flow for bleeding etc. and when cold!
bought some over the shelf good old GM to the rescue, Hi volume thermostats, around 100% more flow when open,than standard stats and NO problem with pump pressure forcing it closed at HI rpm!
i drilled a small 1/4 " hole in the center case so as allowing some flow to get to the wax pellet/ when cold or warming up! on my V12 i use a digital readout gage in F or C!
YES you would need some flow at all times ! also engine heats up much faster with reduced bypass system,then thermo opens for more flow!
and i have actually taken the thermostat out of some heavy equipement engines in Texas, and the guys love them runnin close to full throttle for hours on end in 100F temps!
ron

never had any problems in Florida or texas!
local Heavy equipment guys loved them, and some race cars guys also!

.

i aint knockin any you guys , but most seem to be thinking out of the same box of knowledge!

its a generation thing , i’m guessin!

The idea of all automotive cooling systems is continuous flow. All of them have bypass systems to ensure that there are no stagnant pockets in the head as the engine warms. Sealing or severely restricting the bypass does your engine no favors. Has nothing to do with ambient temperatures, as even engines in tropical climates require warm up time.

Most period American engines had open bypass systems. The bypass was arranged orthogonal to flow, so that bypass flow would be minimal unless the thermostat was closed or partially closed. The dual poppet thermostat was a bit of an improvement, since it could positively block flow in high stress situations. This particular thermostat was a simpler, alternative design that paralleled the development of the dual poppet. I think the last production vehicle that used it was Hummer H1.

The thermostat you illustrate isn’t a GM design, it’s probably due to Ford, although AMC began using it around the same time…maybe 1962 or 63. It’s one of my favorites, because it packs a lot of original thinking into a very small package. I’m actually devoting a full chapter to it. It’s usually called a Robertshaw thermostat, because that company was the primary source for many years. Although it’s not obvious, it’s a two-valve bypass thermostat, designed to work with a specific type of engine that used a backing plate which restricted the bypass and interfaced with the wax pellet:

Ford Bypass Plate

The plate restricted the bypass passage to a diameter that exactly matched the wax capsule. When the thermostat opened, the capsule would back into the bypass, blocking flow. Ford used various copper “hats” to re-dimension the wax capsules when more bypass flow was required. As a solution to a damaged bypass sealing surface, it would be interesting to use one of these and add a suitable hat to the bottom which allowed it to seal the Jaguar bypass at full extension:

Bypass Adapters

The design has considerably more flow cross section than a conventional poppet thermostat, but getting the full advantage of that area requires a specific water rail, where water enters from the sides rather than the bottom. I’m not sure how the XJS manifolds are constructed, but dual poppet water rails are always designed to flow from the bottom, and are usually rather constricted, so you wouldn’t get the full benefit. OTH, you wouldn’t get the full pressure drop of that huge opening, either:

Robertshaw Thermostat Flow Paths

The thermostat is a “balanced force” design, which equalizes pressure on the top and bottom of the valve. This allowed certain economies in production, but I’m not sure if it really translates to better reliability. These thermostats can rip themselves apart in service if the wax capsule missed the bypass plate due to wear, because there’s no bypass spring to relieve mismatches. There’s also an internal o-ring between the valve and pylon that can cause leakage, but can’t be inspected or replaced. There’s absolutely no reason to drill it to allow the pellet to heat up, as the balanced force design allows full flow around the inside of the pylon. But drilling it obviates the need for the bypass, so that’s probably why you aren’t blowing up engines:

Robertshaw Disassembled

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Interesting reading!

I’ve got my new Gates (33188) thermostats ready to go in. It actually has “54mm” imprinted on it???

Did you drill that bleed hole, or did it come like that?

I drilled it indeed.

I have some more tests done, and a correction.

Correction: Both the Quinton Hazel 104 and the Unipart GTS101 turned out to be repackaged Wastat units. They work correctly, and can be used for all XK and V12 applications.

I also received a few thermostats from Australia, including a Dayco DT18a. This isn’t a Waxstat, but it is an almost exact copy. The only difference is that the wax capsule is brass rather than copper, and the bypass valve is attached with a flare rather than a swage. But it also works well for these applications.

Any of these will need to be drilled if they don’t have jiggle valves. A 1/16" hole is more than adequate.

So this gives you a good choice of thermostats that actually work (these are 180’s):

Gates 33188
Gates 33188s (Superstat)
Stant 13398
Stant 45398 (Superstat)
Dayco DT18A
Quinton Hazel QTH104
Unipart GTS101

Any of these will give about 2mm interference with the bypass port when fully open. No need for “feet” or “extensions”.

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John, a high flow thermostat has NO BENEFIT for the V12. The std. thermostat has a bore of 1.06in. and the water outlet from the thermostat is 1.00in.
Result being that NO additional cooling benefit can be achieved by using a larger dia.

The thermostat is basically a poppet valve with an actuator rod down the center. So where, exactly, is this “bore of 1.06in.”? I’m not sure I disagree with your contention that the std thermostat will flow plenty, but I don’t see how to easily compare the flow rate of a fully-open thermostat to a 1" opening in a hose fitting.

I don’t think this is comparable…
In the pressurized environment of the cooling system an 82c thermostat is fully open at approximately 96c and an 88c one at 102c. and during normal driving conditions it will be open just a few mm.

I will at some point put flow meters onto the bypass crossover pipe and radiator inlets and then you can just read the numbers off of the graph at different revs and temperatures to your hearts’ content. I’m just a bit busy with other stuff at the moment.

kind regards
Marek

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Thanks: was gonna mention this, but didn’t want to upset the latest whiz bang theory…:wink: