New V12 build starting

I am writing to gather some informed opinions on where I need to go next with my car.

This is a 1990 convertible, and I have fitted nearly all the AJ6 goodies: ECU, TT Exhaust, fitted bored throttles (no plus torque intake, however). I run Thrush turbo mufflers into glasspacks. I have removed the A/C and the air pump (all of it: all plumbing, all the bits), which has removed some weight as well as making things a bit more accessible under the bonnet. The suspension has been warmed over, too: I have fitted poly bushes to the front end, and fitted larger bars, front and rear. The ride height has been tuned as well; I run heights that mimic the XJSR. Part of that was accomplished through tire fitment: I run XK8 revolvers (17") with 245/50 in the rear and 225/45 in the front. Has that slightly nose-down attitude of the XJRS. The rest of the height was trimmed out through packing ring removal in the front and very minor amounts of spacers in the rear. The car is fitted with a Tremec wide ratio 5 speed, and a 3.54 diff.

All in all, it is a very taught, sharply behaving car (well, as much taughtness as can be reasonably obtained with a convertible), without completely forsaking that Jaguar-esque ride quality.

But, it could use an ounce or two more of encouragement, as it is a 4200 lb hulk.

Toward that end, I have acquired two engines:

The first is a 1979 pre-HE, pulled from an XJS in the early 1980’s (circa 1983, I am told). This was pulled at very low mileage due to the owner’s inability to ‘get it running right’. I have the race-track fuel rail, and it has been fitted with new, HE-model injectors. So this fellow went to great lengths to try to get the car to run properly before he pulled the engine. I would be surprised if this engine has more than 30K on it. Year and S/N suggest it is fitted with 7.9:1 pistons. I got it for the heads, but the 7.9 pistons make it a turbo/supercharging candidate.

The second is a 1994 HE 6L motor (yeah, the one with the forged crank). Mileage unknown, pulled from an XJ12, from what I can devine from the serial number.

Why have I acquired these? My first plan was to pull the flat heads and use these on the 6L block and crank, and fit new pistons and liners, taking this to 6.7L using Chevy 305 pistons, or to 6.8L using 96mm Rob Beere kit. The logic being that the larger displacements will need better breathing.

So far, I have been acquiring the various bits and pieces of tooling with which to do full rebuilds, and expect to begin opening and disassembling one of these starting this season (the sun will return sometime, here in Ohio).

I have been reviewing how I want to proceed, and this is where I am looking for input:

The courses of action that I can see in addition to the original plan are:

  1. open and inspect the 5.3, re-seal it if it looks good and put two smaller turbos on it (I hate the prospect of turbolag)

  2. rebuild the 6L and turbo it, as is (although I think those pistons will have to be trimmed down somewhat)

  3. find a longer stroke crank- maybe one of the TWR-spec 84 mm models. I suspect this will entail many other changes (like rods and pistons, and maybe oiling?).

I eyeballed the 92 mm crank that xjr5006 offered on another site a while ago, pretty seriously, but I could not convince myself to go this route (5 mm head plate and all the rest of it).

My kid brother is into boats and has a 38’ fitted with twin 540 cube big blocks that are supercharged using Prochargers. I like the clean nature of that setup, and figure that a Procharger could actually be accomplished under the bonnet of an XJS. So, supercharging may be the route, and I happen to like this ALOT more than turbocharging, from a tuning and drivability perspective.

Yes, most any of this will necessitate a new ECU. That’s a given in this overall picture.

And yes, the trans/diff gearing will be getting a fresh look, too, as the present overall ratios will not be well suited to a significantly more torquey and powerful motor. I may drop the 2.88 back in, or, I will go to a close ratio T56-based box that can work with a diff as numerically high as the 3.54.

Of course, the chief objective is getting there through a minimum path, in terms of cost (let’s be clear- what I am outlining will not be cheap, but I also don’t want to shell out more than reasonably necessary), but also in terms of long term livability: the final result has to be reliable enough to approach daily-driver quality. I don’t want a setup that requires constant nursing and care (which is one reason I have not gone the nitrous route).

The primary use is as a street vehicle- not a stop light drag racer, I don’t track the car, anything like that. Just looking for bags of torque to motivate the 4200lb of bulk to move along. So, basically looking for an engine that is optimized to 6000 RPM, no real need to go higher, with plenty of grunt from ~2000 on up.

Anecdotal information suggests the cams from the 6L will be better suited to turbo/supercharging, although I do not know for sure. The somewhat lighter valve train components of the 6L would be transferred, if possible, to the flat heads.

Any thoughts or opinions? Anything I am missing, here?

The easy way I guess is to focus on a clean rebuild of the 6L, and not worry about those flat heads. I suppose if I stopped at 6L, that’d be the way to go. But if the flat heads are fitted, pistons must be bought, and since I am in there doing this, might as well go for larger liners…and, we’re off to the races! See what I mean?

-M

Hi Mike:
Sounds exciting. Way over my head, but I will offer two suggestions:

  1. If I were you. would not destroy two rare and perhaps good engines to make one that will be better than either the pre-HE or the factory 6.9L
  2. The convertible is just that, a convertible. Get a coupe and use your new engine in it. I am sure it will be a lot more rewarding to drive with the increased torque/power

Good luck,
Steve

1 Like

Mike,

I thought the HE injectors were a lot smaller (flow rate) than the pre-HE injectors? Perhaps your previous owners problems in getting that flat head to run right was a question of getting the fuelling all wrong?? Engine might be fine.

Rgds
Mark

I thought the HE injectors were a lot smaller (flow rate) than the
pre-HE injectors?

They’re nowhere near the same IIRC. That means you can’t swap them
without at the minimum a change in fuel mapping.

Now, the Digital P is from all reports far better than the D Jetronic. If you
were looking to convert a pre-H.E. to Digital P, the first step would be to fit
the H.E. injectors. So, whether or not that’s what the guy was trying to do, it
might be something to consider doing now.

– Kirbert

Mark, Kirby:

I mentioned the HE injectors fitted to the pre-HE rail on purpose- yes, it is very clear that this fellow did not know what the problem was. It fits with the provenance I was given for the engine: the story went that the guy had a '79 XJS, and by the very early 80’s, the car was not ‘running right’. After exhausting many directions and evidently a great deal of dollars (a new set of HE injectors had to have been rather costly in the early 1980’s, by themselves), the guy reportedly pulled the engine. This happened around 1983 or so. It had been sitting in the garage of the guy I bought it from since that time. This guy had a 79 XJS and wanted to keep a spare around.

My own hypothesis is that either or both the OPUS ignition or the Lucas ECU were playing up, or he had a loose ground somewhere, and the owner never sorted it out. At that time, there was no internet of course, and so unless you had a friend in the Jag culture, you were at the mercy of the dealer, as not much was commonly known, and even less understood about these cars. Anyway, the story was made entirely consistent for me what I saw that fuel rail.

-M

I know a bit about injector flow rates, so I will chime in briefly. First…it is important to remember that injector mfgs typically (but not always) quote injector flow rates at 3 Bar pressure…100% duty cycle…full open pintle. This is IMPORTANT as it allows engine designers to have a bench mark to use for selecting injectors.

So…the designer used that data to select an injector that will fit flows required on the specific engine to produce the HP required for the engine. The pre-HE Jag V12 operates at a fuel pressure of 2 Bar. The HE V12 at 2.5 Bar. The pre-HE engine fires the injector one time per engine cycle… the HE V12 engine fires the injector twice per engine cycle. The engine designer will use a conversion factor to determine what a 3 Bar injector flow rate converts to at 2 Bar, 2.5 Bar, or any other fuel pressure used on the specific engine…Jag or otherwise. Manifold pressure variations, pressure differential (injector pintle/manifold), as well usually not exceeding an 80% duty cycle is also factored in. All of which produce a lower injector flow rate (or higher if fuel pressure is above 3 Bar) than the mfg speced.

All of the above is important to consider. FYI…One year ago…I worked for months with a customer in Japan with a very similar situation. A hodge-podge engine…pre HE stuff, HE stuff, pre-HE injectors, HE injectors, pre HE and HE ECU’s. He could never provide what he actually had, and…well…bottom line…my time is worth something…and he wasnt willing.

The above quickly proof read. I’m busy working on IRS taxes.

SD Faircloth
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com

1 Like

The pre-HE Jag V12 operates at a fuel pressure of 2 Bar.
The HE V12 at 2.5 Bar.

There’s another difference, though, in that the pre-H.E. operates at 2 Bar
relative to atmospheric while the H.E. operates at 2.5 Bar relative to intake
manifold pressure
. Since the actual pressure differential across the
injectors is fuel pressure to intake manifold pressure, the injectors on the
pre-H.E. will actually be seeing more than 2 Bar – but it’ll be varying with
throttle and load.

– Kirbert

Kirby,

I agree with your reply. As I had indicated in my post… “manifold pressure variations”, pressure differential (injector pintle/manifold). Would have thought my reply possibly covered (?) that for V12 owners that recognize the differences between the two systems/year models…pre-HE…HE… maybe…maybe not. What I was basically replying to…was the need to recognize how injector flows were determined as manufactured, and that flow will vary…within any engine…based upon fuel pressure, ECU used, etc., etc. Just providing items that require further investigation…which could be had from any # of sources…including your Experience in a Book.

SD

The following is some interesting data I have summarised from Stan Weiss’s web site …

There appear to be a lot of different injectors used over the years …
I can’t vouch for the accuracy of the information but might give someone a place to start.

Jaguar Injector Flow Data.pdf (85.3 KB)

back 1993/94 i had no idea what injector to use with my custom ECU(fully adjustable). with AFR gage.

so ended up using a set 12 Honda injectors new ,told the guy i wanted 245CC at 40psi. per min.

ended up with custom fuel rail, Honda had O-rings top and bottom, adjustable FPR, also.

been working fine for 22yrs now.

to me the factory fuel inj. system seemed complicated ,Bosch P .and parts where way to much!

all my conversion parts where made in USA including the injectors!. most GM stuff like MAP sensor, injector elec. plugs ,all the ECU plug connections! and injector drivers, harness wiring,etc.

at this time i’m runnin 45psi at idle no vac. vac drops it to 40psi. with vac.

anyway to each his own ,but it works for me.

and i run the NEW injectors on machine to be sure of them, and 45 psi had best spray patterns for WOT.

Mike
Nice project.
I like the kick in the pants provided by a supercharger at relatively low revs.
The turbo is great when it comes on boost but requires revs and is a bit more frantic.
And…I am imagining the belt driven supercharger in the Vee where the compressor used to be blowing into a plenum onto the inlet manifold flanges.
The existing crankshaft pulley arrangement would need reworking to something that can transmit some kilowatts
The distributor is gone of course. There may be height issues depending on your compressor selection but it sounds do-able.
The turbo set up will be a bit more challenging…there is virtually no access to the existing manifold connection…and very little space in that area…nothing materialises as a reasonably easy option for this install.
Challenging project to say the least !!!
Regards
Matt

remote mounted turbo’s leaves plenty of room in engine bay.

they run very cool ,rear mount.

google, remote turbochargers. then make a decision !

or STS turbochargers, reviews.