In digging through old parts boxes, I discovered a mystery “part” in with my XK120 stuff. It is a brown leather open-sided stitched pocket similar to that for the Valve timing gage, but in this case it is slightly larger and has two pockets, not one. In each pocket is a rectangular piece of polished black plastic. I have no memory whatsoever of the origin of this. Anyone ???
Without a picture, I can only guess.
Are you sure they are plastic and not painted aluminum?
Blanking plates for the front brake air scoops?
By jove I think you’ve got it. SB66 says: “SB 66 - Apr 50: Throttle restrictor: Advised that a throttle restrictor was being fitted to XK120 cars to prevent their being “run at excessive speed during their early life”, in the form of “a stop on the underside of the accelerator pedal” secured to the pedal by a setscrew which is in turn locked by a wire and lead seal. The stop is to be removed at the time when the first service is carried out, that is, after the first 750 miles.” No chassis numbers nominated.
Front brake air scoops: Announced that 2 blanking plates C.4292 would “in future be issued with each car, to be fitted, when considered necessary, in place of the normal stone guard, Part no. C.3527.” It was also noted that the scoops themselves were to avoid brake fade. No chassis numbers nominated."
I will take pictures and post. Never heard of a leather pouch but in fact I found it in company with a matching leather pouch containing the valve timing gage.
Thank you.
Karl Kirkman
Mark V had them as well, part C.4292, but I hadn’t heard of a pouch for them.
For driving on dusty or muddy roads.
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can you post a photo of the pouch what is it made from ?
Terry,
I absolutely will post a picture. It is not stored here at the house, and today is a Dr. visit day for us as we are elderly, but I will get it as soon as I can.
Karl
Rob,
Today is Dr visit day ( old age is not for the faint of heart ) ,but I will post a picture as soon as I can. My Jaguar stuff is not here at the house.
If the pouch is not original, it must have taken a fanatic to decide to make up one, but that is my expectation. It was found stored along with the cam tool in a matching pouch…
Thank you.
Karl
| Rob_Reilly
March 28 |
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Mark V had them as well, part C.4292, but I hadn’t heard of a pouch for them.
For driving on dusty or muddy roads.
Terry,
Here is a pictureof the pouch and it is indeed the cover plates as evidenced by the corner hole.
They apperar to be aluminum painted a very glossy black.
Karl
Here are some photos:
First image is two styles of cam tool: exposed stitching and concealed stitching.
Second image is two cam pockets next to shut plate pocket.
Final image is shut plate pocket with contents splayed out Note that leather spacer is loose and held between the two plates. Plates appear to be fairly heavy aluminum with very glossy black finish; a single hole in corner. Item appears to be a reproduction, but it is hard to imagine someone just making this up without something to copy.
Its worth tidying up this thread, or else down the track there may be misconceptions…
Re two of the subjects of this thread/ interest….
A. BLANKING PLATE for AIR SCOOPS and existence of any CONTAINER or not.
The XK120 SPC lists within the TOOL KIT section as having a C.4292 Blanking-Plate for Air Scoops (2 of) but no listing at all for any associated Container.
(It should be noted that the same TOOL KIT section also lists a C.3993 Gauge for Valve Timing (1 of) and a C.2999 Container for Valve Timing Gauge (1 of))
(This suggests to me that if there was any Container for the Blanking-Plates, surely it would have also been listed here)
I am 100% totally unaware of there ever having been a factory made/supplied Container for Blanking-Plates.
However some years ago now, in amongst a number of projects I was working with Steve Kennedy (of Colorado – who I am many listers will know), when refining our efforts to make more accurate repros of the C.2999 Container, Steve thought it may be an interesting extra, to make up himself, a similar style Container (out of stitched leather) for the C.4292 Blanking Plates. He to was totally unaware of their having been any factory originals, but proceeded to just invent a Container that was similar concept/execution to the factory C.2999 Containers.
I have several of these made-up Blanking Plate Containers, as Steve made a large batch, but no idea how many he has made/sold, albeit he would not be misleading anyone that they were of any legitimacy.
Bottom line – NO, I totally do not believe there was ever any Jaguar factory made Container for the Blanking Plates included with a new XK120, nor as an aftermarket factory spare part.
But if Steve Kennedy unilaterally made up his Containers, no reason why there may well have been others in USA similarly making up something as well.
Now my understanding is that these C.4292 Blanking Plates were only belatedly offered to the earliest XK120s (SB.66 of April 1950 says Front Brake Airscoop blanking plates will in future be issued with both Mark V and XK120) with the earlier Braking System to Nov 1951 (660001 to 660979/ 670001 to 672048 and 669001 to 669002/679001 to 679621) that had front Backing Plates with an Air Scoop Assembly (C.3525/C.3606) attached that was provided with a C.3527 gauze Stone Guard over the air-scoops intake so stones/etc would not be sucked into the brake shoe/drum area. But it was found in wet weather/rain, that this Stone Guard still allowed water to enter, thus if that became problematic then the provision of the Blanking Plates that could be substituted for the Stone Guards. Regardless, all later XK120s from Nov 1951 onwards, had a revised braking system with different Backing Plates that incorporated a Gauze covered air-intake on the flat Backing Plate, and had no extra protruding Air Scoop Assembly (Same backing plates with Gauze covered air-intake as fitted to all XK140s) Thus no need for the C.4292 Blanking Plates (introduced circa April 1950) for XK120s built from Nov 1951 onwards.
Now I think it is an error even listing these C.4292 Blanking Plates within the XK120 SPC TOOL KIT section, as they are not ‘Tools’, but even so, the listing should be noted as only applying to the above chassis numbers (to Nov 1951). They should more correctly have been listed in the BRAKES section, under the Air Scoop Assembly sub-heading.
So two things…
- The C.4292 Blanking-Plates are NOT Tools, thus I exclude/don’t mention them at all in any of my Tool Kits writing/researching efforts apart from adding a NOTE, that they should not be considered/included in the TOOL KIT listing for XK120.
- There was no Container supplied by Jaguar new or after market for the C.4292 Blanking Plates.
I have examples of both 1 and 2 in my miscellaneous interests/collections, but I don’t associate either amongst my Tool Kits interests.
Now one other INTERESTING detail is that the XK120 has LOCKHEED made/supplied braking system (both early system with Air Scoops added, and later XK120 and all XK140 without air-scoops)
The Mark V braking system was made/supplied by GIRLING. Unexpectedly the Mark V braking system also has C.3525/C.3606 Air Scoops fitted with C.3527 Stone Guards so that suggests to me that the Air Scoops were actually made themselves by Jaguar, and not by Girling and/or Lockheed, indeed in the XK120 SPC all the braking system parts show both Jaguar Part Numbers and Lockheed Part Numbers, except for the Air Scoops themselves which only show Jaguar Part Numbers and no Lockheed numbers). I am unaware of any listing in the Mark V SPC for any Blanking Plates, with the SB.66 mention the only reference to (post April 1950 Mark V having them)
Given there very short life April 1950 to Nov 1951, factory original C.4292 Blanking Plates are incredibly rare, and it took me a long long time to obtain a pair, and even now I am unsure whether mine are originals or repros – I got them, made from sheet aluminium - restored/freshly painted, so who knows ……
But regardless, see my point 1. above – I am not overly fussed/care.
B. C.2999 CONTAINER for VALVE TIMING GAUGE.
The XK120 SPC lists within the TOOL KIT section as having a C.3993 Gauge for Valve Timing (1 of) and a C.2999 Container for Valve Timing Gauge (1 of))
For many many years I had never seen a reliably original C.2999, and still now I do not have an original example in my collection in any condition – one of my major outstanding wants if anyone can help!
But there has been many suppliers for many years supplying what they were claiming to be reproduction C.2999 Containers – and these have always been of the same basic design/pattern of two same-pieces of rectangular leather stitched together both sides, and along the bottom edge (so three sides) with the top edge un-stitched/left open to allow the Cam Gauge to be inserted. The top edges have a semi-circular cut out allowing fingers to grip onto gauge to extract it from Container. I now call these two-piece/three sides stitched C.2999 Containers Variant /a, thus a C.2999/a and if a reproduction add letter R thus C.2999/aR. I still have never seen nor heard of anyone claiming to have an original, but given the many years of reproductions being made/supplied I have to presume (without evidence) that surely they did exist, allowing the first reproductions to be made. Maybe thereafter, it was just other suppliers simply copying the first reproductions, without having an original to copy….
A few years ago when I was trying to really improve my research/writings on XK120/140 Tool Kits I prioritized a lot of effort to improve my knowledge of the listed C.2999 Containers, and indeed over about a year did find four or five reliably original examples in both XK120 and XK140 of a C.2999 Container. Problem is, all five are distinctly different to the first variant C.2999/aR repros that are now widely available, so I call these ones a second variant C.2999/b. The C.2999/b is made of one piece of leather, folded in half along what becomes the bottom edge, and is stitched now on only the two sides. The top edge remains open and still has the semi-circular cut-outs for finger gripping.
One of the originals found belongs to Mike Balch (recently deceased) who I sought his help/readily agreed-offered to make up some EXACT reproductions. Mike had access to a local/co-operative trimmer who was able to use his original C.2999/b to make an extremely accurate reproduction using new available leather best match, and also sourcing/using an exact match natural cotton thread (colour and ply), and then replicated the stitching pitch and style to sew down both sides only. He sent this accurate reproduction to me. Amongst my holdings I had a superb as-new condition piece of Tan leather that was used on the seats of a 1951 Mark VII that I parted out. The piece of leather I had was sufficient to make three only reproductions. I sent Mikes reproduction and my piece of 1951 original leather to Steve Kennedy who then made up three ‘as good as possible’ 100% accurate C.2999/bR Containers. Steve kept one for himself to use as ‘as good as an original’ pattern and original leather sample, for him to then make up additional accurate reproductions but using of course modern/new sourced leather. He returned the other two to me. I kept one for my own collection, but gave the third one to Mike.
Now I promote these C.2999/bR as being accurate reproductions for all XK120s and XK140s with two caveats….
- It is believed that these original C.2999/b Containers were made by the factory trim shop using scrap leather pieces after making the seats for Mark VII and XK120 1950-54 and Mark VIIM, XK140 and Mark 1 from 1954 to 1956. So potentially they could have been made in scrap leather of any one of the period standard leather colours, but nothing else. There were only about 6/7 period colours offered, however original C.2999 have only been seen/confirmed in TAN and in BLACK leather to date, and never yet in RED, BLUE, GREY, SUEDE GREEN colours also available/used for seating. So at this stage I am only offering that C.2999 were only available in Tan or Black leather, but clearly I am open/receptive to additional colours potentially existing, but until I have PROOF – no.
- The Tool Kit listings show the C.2999 as being available for all XK120s ands all XK140s, but not XK150, nor any other saloon models…
At the front end the C.3993 were presumably only supplied to XK120s fitted with engines from Engine No W1194 onwards , so given deployment of Engines, from Jan to Feb 1950 onwards, with Engines having the modified camshaft timing arrangement allowing use of this gauge (see Service Bulletin No.65) There is no proof that dates align, but SB and theory suggest C.3993 was only provided from W1194 onwards, thus also C.2999.
At the back end the last XK140s were a batch of LHD OTS (and one or two only DHC) made in 1957, so whether all XK140s up to Jan 1957 got a C.2999 or not is unknown, given the latest dateable original C.2999 identified found so far is from a mid-1956 XK140. Certainly no listed C2999 for XK150 introduced from April 1957 (nor any evidence of any XK150 actually having one)
So until proof/evidence says otherwise I presume all XK120s (from Jan/Feb 1950 [W1194>] and all XK140s [thus up to Jan 1957] had C.2999 included, but no XK150s.
See attached picture of one of Mike’s reproduction C.2999/bR using his best efforts of locally sourced/available tan leather, pictured against the piece of my original 1951 Mark VII Tan leather.
Now I note again, I have never seen/heard of any surviving original two-piece/stitched 3 sides C.2999/a Containers, but given the long period of reproduction C.2999/aR being available still presume that surely one or more may have existed??? So cannot discount possibility. See pic of one of the many available C.2999/aR
But regardless, my preferred/offered position is that the one piece/stitched two sides C.2999/bR Container is more probably correct……
Thanks Rob, should have read my own 56 page booklet on **JAGUAR MARK V TOOL KITS **…
page 8 Note 3 says…
Note 3: The Spare Parts Catalogue J.7 Amendment List No.3 of November, 1950 issue of the Tool Kit listing adds two off C.4292 Blanking Plates for the front brakes air-scoops – however these are not considered to be ‘tools’. They are not included within the original J.7 issue of October, 1949 nor in the tool kit listing within the Mark V Jaguar Service Manual, thus are not detailed within this Manual.
As per my earlier posting I don’t consider these C.4292 Blanking Plates to be Tools, thus I think an error being included within the Tool Kit section of the later editions of the Mark V SPC (J.7 Al.3 of Nov 1950 and of course the Feb 1958 Revised edition) .Interestingly the original edition of the XK120 SPC (J.8 dated Oct 1950) does not include any C.4292 listing, not being added until the next edition J.8 AL.1 of October 1952) Does this suggest that despite the SB.66 of April 1950 advising Front Brake Airscoop blanking plates will in future be issued with both Mark V and XK120, this didn’t actually happen until Nov 1950, making them even rarer than previously speculated…(last Mark V July 1951, last early braking system XK120 with air scoops Nov 1951)
Still, back to original question - it seems apparent that there was no such thing as a (factory issued) Container in which to house these seemingly extremely rare C.4292 Blanking Plates…
What amazing trivia we dig into on this forum. I love it.
The Girling brake backing plates with cam adjusters for Mark V are indeed different from the Lockheed plates for early 120 using Micram adjusters, and the scoops, though carrying the same part numbers, are slightly different. Mark V scoops are held on with 6 round headed drive screws each, where on 120 it is only 4 pop rivets each. Mark V scoops have an extra tab in the middle. Perhaps this was cut off when installing them on a 120?
Incidentally in case the question of why two part numbers should come up in after dinner conversation, the reason there are left and right scoops is the clearance hole on the top for the nut on the steering arm and track rod end.
Wonderirng about the purpose of the smalll hole in one corner of the plates. Are they held in place by some sort of wire tie ?
Reilly
April 15 |
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Roger_Payne:
The Mark V braking system was made/supplied by GIRLING. Unexpectedly the Mark V braking system also has C.3525/C.3606 Air Scoops fitted with C.3527 Stone Guards so that suggests to me that the Air Scoops were actually made themselves by Jaguar, and not by Girling and/or Lockheed, indeed in the XK120 SPC all the braking system parts show both Jaguar Part Numbers and Lockheed Part Numbers, except for the Air Scoops themselves which only show Jaguar Part Numbers and no Lockheed numbers).
What amazing trivia we dig into on this forum. I love it.
The Girling brake backing plates with cam adjusters for Mark V are indeed different from the Lockheed plates for early 120 using Micram adjusters, and the scoops, though carrying the same part numbers, are slightly different. Mark V scoops are held on with 6 round headed drive screws each, where on 120 it is only 4 pop rivets each. Mark V scoops have an extra tab in the middle. Perhaps this was cut off when installing them on a 120?
Incidentally in case the question of why two part numbers should come up in after dinner conversation, the reason there are left and right scoops is the clearance hole on the top for the nut on the steering arm and track rod end.
No, there is a springy clip at the inboard end of the scoop that holds them in.
The hole might be for hanging them with wire for painting.