Hello, does anyone know if the studs that secure the exhaust
downpipes to the manifold on a MK IV are the same as an
XK120? Although they look similar at a glance while on the
cars, the MK IV parts book calls out part number FT.106/12H
and the XK 120 parts book calls out C2369.
Thanks
Doug Faust–
Doug Faust
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Doug,
A FT.106/12H stud is a “standard” size 3/8" BSF threaded stud - 1-1/2"
Overall Length.
Being “standard” that means:-
The threaded end for the NUT is 3/4" long.
The plain portion in the middle is 1/4" long.
The threaded end secured in metal (manifold) is 1/2" long.
An XK120/140 stud - C2369 - has a different thread - 3/8"UNF
So superficially similar - but different thread and thus not
interchangeable!
Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org] On
Behalf Of Doug Faust
Sent: Monday, 3 December 2012 1:01 PM
To: pre-xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [pre-xk] MK IV exhaust manifold studs
Hello, does anyone know if the studs that secure the exhaust
downpipes to the manifold on a MK IV are the same as an
XK120? Although they look similar at a glance while on the
cars, the MK IV parts book calls out part number FT.106/12H
and the XK 120 parts book calls out C2369.
Doug Faust
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Doug Faust sent Sun 2 Dec 2012:
As Roger says they are 3/8’’ BSF
I find it worthwhile to spend a little extra on stainless steel
studs
. And obviously all the manifold nuts should always be brass,
although I notice cars in adverts that aren’t.
The combination of steel nuts and steel studs is a good recipe
for broken manifolds
There is a company in UK called Motalia that manufacture stainless
studs in many sizes and threads… they’re on line.
They sell ones that are suitable for SS/K IV, fractionally longer
but that isn’t a deal breaking issue
I’ve bought them for the last 3 engines I’ve done.
The originality wonk might notice it’s harder to buy 3/8’’ BSF
brass nuts in Whitworth Hex sizes. They seem to be available in AF
hex sizes though.
The bolts that secure the rear half of teh ex system by flanges is
are also 3/8’’ BSF.
Eventually one finds that the flanges are needed, if one wants
to remove the engine pipes without having the car up on a hoist.–
The original message included these comments:
Hello, does anyone know if the studs that secure the exhaust
downpipes to the manifold on a MK IV are the same as an
XK120? Although they look similar at a glance while on the
cars, the MK IV parts book calls out part number FT.106/12H
and the XK 120 parts book calls out C2369.
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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Hi Ed,
Why are steel studs and nuts verboten on manifolds? I’m using the steel crimped nuts with original exhaust manifolds on my '69 E, for several years now.
Thanks,
DavidSent from my iPad
On Dec 2, 2012, at 10:15 PM, “Ed Nantes” enantes@bigpond.com wrote:
In reply to a message from Doug Faust sent Sun 2 Dec 2012:
As Roger says they are 3/8’’ BSF
I find it worthwhile to spend a little extra on stainless steel
studs
. And obviously all the manifold nuts should always be brass,
although I notice cars in adverts that aren’t.
The combination of steel nuts and steel studs is a good recipe
for broken manifoldsThere is a company in UK called Motalia that manufacture stainless
studs in many sizes and threads… they’re on line.
They sell ones that are suitable for SS/K IV, fractionally longer
but that isn’t a deal breaking issueI’ve bought them for the last 3 engines I’ve done.
The originality wonk might notice it’s harder to buy 3/8’’ BSF
brass nuts in Whitworth Hex sizes. They seem to be available in AF
hex sizes though.The bolts that secure the rear half of teh ex system by flanges is
are also 3/8’’ BSF.Eventually one finds that the flanges are needed, if one wants
to remove the engine pipes without having the car up on a hoist.The original message included these comments:
Hello, does anyone know if the studs that secure the exhaust
downpipes to the manifold on a MK IV are the same as an
XK120? Although they look similar at a glance while on the
cars, the MK IV parts book calls out part number FT.106/12H
and the XK 120 parts book calls out C2369.–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from D.shield sent Sun 2 Dec 2012:
David
[ mild] Steel nuts and studs can rust together on Ex manifolds
and when undoing [ or trying to undo]them the nuts can break the
corner off the manifold
That’s why Jaguar used brass nuts. And they are sold as manifold
nuts.
The stainless studs are just an extra embellishment.
But if you have to remove them at any stage , you’ll consider the
few $$ investment worth it in time and convenience.–
The original message included these comments:
Why are steel studs and nuts verboten on manifolds? I’m using the steel crimped nuts with original exhaust manifolds on my '69 E, for several years now.
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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Ahh. I was wondering if it was about the material strength. Rust did not cross my mind…Sent from my iPad
On Dec 3, 2012, at 3:14 AM, “Ed Nantes” enantes@bigpond.com wrote:
In reply to a message from D.shield sent Sun 2 Dec 2012:
David
[ mild] Steel nuts and studs can rust together on Ex manifolds
and when undoing [ or trying to undo]them the nuts can break the
corner off the manifoldThat’s why Jaguar used brass nuts. And they are sold as manifold
nuts.The stainless studs are just an extra embellishment.
But if you have to remove them at any stage , you’ll consider the
few $$ investment worth it in time and convenience.The original message included these comments:
Why are steel studs and nuts verboten on manifolds? I’m using the steel crimped nuts with original exhaust manifolds on my '69 E, for several years now.
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from D.shield sent Mon 3 Dec 2012:
Right, the XK engines are all ANF & ANC (i.e. SAE or US)
threads, where the pushrod engines are all BSF & BSW (i.e.
British) threads, except the rocker arms which are BSC.
I got my stainless exhaust studs and brass nuts from Wally
Vorlaufer in South Africa since I was ordering other stuff
from him.
If you don’t have stainless studs I recommend Anti-seize,
actually its good practice even on stainless.
If you need just one or two and want to stay within the USA
there is Metric and Multistandard www.metricmcc.com for
lengths of threaded rod or get full threaded bolts and cut
the heads off. Or buy a die and make them yourself.
Moss Motors www.mossmotors.com carries BSF studs for MGTC
and possibly TR2 so maybe work with them to figure out what
you need.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Sun 2 Dec 2012:
Thanks All. The reason I need new studs is that sometime in
the past someone used steel nuts instead of brass.
Fortunately the old studs all came out of the manifolds
without breaking.
Doug Faust–
The original message included these comments:
. And obviously all the manifold nuts should always be brass,
although I notice cars in adverts that aren’t.
–
Doug Faust
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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Never let an opportunity pass to be pedantically correct, but ORIGINAL
manifold nuts as used by SS and Jaguar were BRONZE.
However the modern replacements made of BRASS work just as well and look the
same, if not quite as robust/strong.
Typically true BRONZE is an alloy 88% COPPER and 12% TIN, but can vary a
little, but many similar COPPER based alloys with other elements than TIN
included although called BRONZE are not truly bronze.
Who knows for sure exactly what composition were SS/Jaguar BRONZE manifold
nuts.
BRASS is typically a COPPER-ZINC alloy, but again the name is generic with
all manner of variations and additions possible - thus presumably those
making BRASS manifold nuts are hopefully using an appropriate Copper alloy
for purpose. So again - be wary on only buying reputable source Brass Nuts,
and don’t expect these from your local Bunnings/Wal Mart
Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org] On
Behalf Of Doug Faust
Sent: Wednesday, 5 December 2012 12:59 PM
To: pre-xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [pre-xk] MK IV exhaust manifold studs
In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Sun 2 Dec 2012:
Thanks All. The reason I need new studs is that sometime in
the past someone used steel nuts instead of brass.
Fortunately the old studs all came out of the manifolds
without breaking.
The original message included these comments:
. And obviously all the manifold nuts should always be brass,
although I notice cars in adverts that aren’t.
–
Doug Faust
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –
In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Tue 4 Dec 2012:
Roger,
Your Pedant of The Year award is in the mail.
But yes I will aaavoid Bunnings’ BSF threaded merchandise in
future.
I am already wary of their line of cheap SS Parts.–
The original message included these comments:
for purpose. So again - be wary on only buying reputable source Brass Nuts,
and don’t expect these from your local Bunnings/Wal Mart
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –
In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Tue 4 Dec 2012:
Ok, the pedant of the year must be challenged.
The nuts on the down pipes are FN.106/K brass, 8 per car. So
far so good.
The nuts on the manifold to head are FN.106/Q manganese
bronze, 12 per car.
The Mark V parts catalogue lists 16 per car for the 2.5
litre, but 40 per car for the 3.5 litre.
I found the 4 more holding the carbs to the head, so for the
2.5 litre they are properly counted.
But where are the 24 more on the 3.5 litre?
You have 24 hours. Clock is ticking. My guess tomorrow.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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In reply to a message from Rob Reilly sent Wed 5 Dec 2012:
To be in enhanced pedanrty mode …
The SS 3 1/2 litre to engine #M1100 only had 11 studs [ and nuts
to the head… 12 subsequent to that.
The MK IV [ and SS had twin exhaust systems so there were 2
flanges joining the rear sections to the front… 8 bolts and nuts
I have my doubts they would use a non ferrous nut on the carbs.
More costly and no benefit.
In the 3 1/2 litre parts book these are FN 106/ L2
The 3 1/2 parts book lists only a total of 30 brass/ bronze nuts.
Nuts bought these days would be made from from stock hex , which
is why it is getting hard to find them in correct Whit hex size.
They’d be very expensive if the hex was milled first on an
indexing head.
One is lucky to find hex in Whit sizes at all, and I think you’d
be pushing your luck to go to a supplier and ask for it in
manganese bronze. Still it would give the counter staff their laugh
for the day.
What is curious is why they specify different materials for the
nuts on opposite ends of the manifolds.
I have never seens one structurally fail.
A quick google seemed to show the places that sold maanganese
bronze nuts [ not BSF] as being for boats.
Perhaps the salt water splashing up from UK roads was considered
as destructive as immersion in the sea.–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Wed 5 Dec 2012:
Ding. Time’s up.
So the question was why does the standard parts list in the
back of the Mark V PC show 40 manganese bronze nuts for the
3.5 litre and only 16 for the 2.5 litre?
My guess is that the person typing the standard parts pages
miscounted entries in the regular sections.
The nuts show up on page 2 under 2.5L cylinder head (12 for
the exhaust studs and 4 for the carb studs), page 7 2.5
exhaust (12 for the exhaust studs again), page 14 under 3.5L
head (only the 4 for carb studs, not the exhaust), and on
page 19 3.5L exhaust (12 for the exhaust studs again).
So for the 2.5L the person counted only page 2 and got it
right, but for the 3.5 the typist counted pages 2, 7 and 19
which added together make 40. They should have counted only
pages 14 & 19 and got a total of 16.
Ed, you wondered about bronze nuts on the carb flanges. My
guess is that it was for appearance.
Mark V has only 1 flanged joint in the exhaust system after
the down pipes, and it had ANF thread plain steel fasteners.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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In reply to a message from Rob Reilly sent Thu 6 Dec 2012:
Rob
I would have thought the carb mounting nuts weren’t very visible
behind the water rail.
And the bottom one definitely not.
As Bill is alleged to have suggesting not putting carpet under the
seats to save cost, it seems that if true about the nuts, he would
have specified only the top one be Bronze/ brass.–
The original message included these comments:
Ed, you wondered about bronze nuts on the carb flanges. My
guess is that it was for appearance.
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Thu 6 Dec 2012:
Yes, even less visible with the Mark V air cleaner on top.
Bill’s frugality was legendary, but so was his sense of
style. Nevertheless, there they are in the parts book and
there they are on my engine.
Also notice in the Amendment List No. 1 for the 3.5 Litre,
they appear on page 1, replacing nut FN.106/L.2 as called
out on page 2 of the J3 catalogue for carbs (4 ea). So it
was a conscious decision on somebody’s part.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Sun 2 Dec 2012:
OK, I have received replacement manifold studs and they are
threaded 3/8-20 on both ends. The originals are 3/8-16 on
the manifold end. This is leaving me a bit confused. The
threads in the manifolds are in good shape and it does not
appear to me that they have ever been modified.
It appears that maybe I need to have some studs custom made?
Has anyone else come across this situation?
Thanks
Doug Faust–
The original message included these comments:
A FT.106/12H stud is a ‘‘standard’’ size 3/8’’ BSF threaded stud - 1-1/2’’
Overall Length.
–
Doug Faust
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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A 3/8-16 tpi is 3/8" BSW. (British Standard Whitworth - Course)
A 3/8-20 tpi is 3/8" BSF. (British Standard Fine )
Certainly it is standard Jaguar Practice with Aluminium XK heads to have a
course thread into the aluminium (in this case UNC not BSW), with a fine
thread (UNF not BSF) for the brass-nut securing, but I don’t know first hand
for cast-iron heads, but I would think the same, so BSW - BSF could well be
original.
If your original threads in your head are 3/8"BSW don’t try and fit anything
else there, but if suppliers are only offering 3.8"BSF both ends, try
another supplier, or make your own
Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org] On
Behalf Of Doug Faust
Sent: Friday, 1 February 2013 11:21 AM
To: pre-xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [pre-xk] MK IV exhaust manifold studs
In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Sun 2 Dec 2012:
OK, I have received replacement manifold studs and they are
threaded 3/8-20 on both ends. The originals are 3/8-16 on
the manifold end. This is leaving me a bit confused. The
threads in the manifolds are in good shape and it does not
appear to me that they have ever been modified.
It appears that maybe I need to have some studs custom made?
Has anyone else come across this situation?
Thanks
Doug Faust
–
The original message included these comments:
A FT.106/12H stud is a ‘‘standard’’ size 3/8’’ BSF threaded stud - 1-1/2’’
Overall Length.
–
Doug Faust
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –
In reply to a message from Doug Faust sent Thu 31 Jan 2013:
Doug
What model is this for??
If it’s for a pushrod engine its 3/8’’ BSF
I buy my studs from Motalia which have a website
They sell them in stainless which can only be an improvement
They are fractionally longer but that should not be an issue
If it is a worry you could shorten one end .
Where did you get these from??
Perhaps someone has put recoli kits in them.
Jaguar actually ued very very little in the way of BSW threads.
on our cars.–
The original message included these comments:
OK, I have received replacement manifold studs and they are
threaded 3/8-20 on both ends. The originals are 3/8-16 on
the manifold end. This is leaving me a bit confused. The
threads in the manifolds are in good shape and it does not
appear to me that they have ever been modified.
It appears that maybe I need to have some studs custom made?
Has anyone else come across this situation?
Thanks
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –
In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Thu 31 Jan 2013:
I am referring to the studs that secure the exhaust
downpipes to the manifold on a MK IV. The manifold part
numbers match the parts list, but the threads in the
manifold flange do not match the 3/8 BSF called out for the
stud in the parts list. The studs I received are stainless
and came from Wally in South Africa.
Maybe I can get in close with a magnifying lens to see if
there are threaded inserts in these manifolds.
Thanks–
The original message included these comments:
What model is this for??
If it’s for a pushrod engine its 3/8’’ BSF
Perhaps someone has put recoli kits in them.
Jaguar actually ued very very little in the way of BSW threads.
–
Doug Faust
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from Doug Faust sent Fri 1 Feb 2013:
In the Mark V parts catalogue the manifold-to-downpipe stud
is FT.106/12H and is described in the standard parts section
as 3/8-20 BSF, 1.5’’ overall length, 3/4’’ nut length, 1/4’’
plain portion, 1/2’’ metal end length (I guess that means to
portion screwed into the cast manifold). My Mark V has
these. I believe its the same for Mark IV. So its British
Standard Fine on both ends.
I suspect your manifolds have been re-tapped for 3/8-16 UNC
by some shade tree mechanic who never heard of BSF and did
what he had to do to get the car on the road again.
If you want BSF nuts and taps, a source in the USA is Metric
Multistandard Components Corp, www.metricmcc.com–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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