Surfing around the web I happened to find this 1930 AJS
motorcycle sales brochure.
http://archives.jampot.dk/Promotional/Posters/AJS_Poster_1930.pdf
In the lower right it looks like they are featuring the
octagonal sidecar from Swallow for 20 pounds 5 shillings.
I’m not sure if any of the others are Swallows.–
XK120 FHC, Mark V saloon, XJ12L Series II, S-Type 3.0
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Hi Rob,
It has the multi-sided construction but I can’t see any reference to
Swallow Sidecars!
AJS are offering three sidecar models the “Launch”, “Super Sports” and
“Standard Sports”.
I don’t recall seeing this sidecar in any of the Swallow Sidecars adverts.
Peter
Rob Reilly wrote:> In the lower right it looks like they are featuring the
octagonal sidecar from Swallow for 20 pounds 5 shillings.
I’m not sure if any of the others are Swallows.
In reply to a message from peter scott sent Mon 23 May 2011:
I appears to be a bit bulbous for a Swallow side car of that type.
And I don’t recasll that model with the big door.
I think the Swallow sidecars of that era and type had a swallow
transfer [ decal] logo on the side ,
In the form of a wheel with wings… a lot like the Austin 7 badge .–
The original message included these comments:
It has the multi-sided construction but I can’t see any reference to
Swallow Sidecars!
AJS are offering three sidecar models the ‘‘Launch’’, ‘‘Super Sports’’ and
‘‘Standard Sports’’.
I don’t recall seeing this sidecar in any of the Swallow Sidecars adverts.
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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Yeah, I guess you’re right, the Swallow octagon model was similar but more
pointy in front.
It’s in a lot of the Jaguar history books with Walmsley and Lyons aboard,
and Whyte says it’s the Model 1. I haven’t seen any recent pictures of one.
Maybe there are no survivors.
Here’s another view of what I suppose is the same AJS version of the octagon
chair, which they called the Super Sports.
http://archives.jampot.dk/Promotional/Sales_Brochures/Pre-war/1930_AJS_Sales_Brochure.pdf
Some of the AJS literature on this web site seems to suggest that they made
them and some says they were made by either Hayward or Graiseley.
Rob Reilly - 627933
Hi Rob,
The tail end view at the start of the AJS brochure is certainly very
similar to the SS.
http://www.thoroughbred-cars.com/cars/UK/Jaguar/history.htm
Peter
R_and_J_Reilly wrote:> Here’s another view of what I suppose is the same AJS version of the
octagon chair, which they called the Super Sports.
http://archives.jampot.dk/Promotional/Sales_Brochures/Pre-war/1930_AJS_Sales_Brochure.pdf
In reply to a message from R_and_J_Reilly sent Wed 25 May 2011:
They also had a variation which was hexagonal in cross section.
Possibly because it was cheaper to make
There is of course at least one surviving octagonal sidecar. It’s
picture often appears at the top of the pages in this list.
However of the number made, not many Swallow sidecars remain.
There are 2 of plus an extra chassis here. But I suppose they were
cheap[ish] when new and not the sort of thing that survives well.
I did for while think that a Swallow sidecar chassis with it’s
nice Swallow emblems cast into the castings would make the perfect
basis for a small vintagish trailer to tow behind the SS.
Actually I still think it would be good , but now have an attack
of terminal inertia.–
The original message included these comments:
It’s in a lot of the Jaguar history books with Walmsley and Lyons aboard,
and Whyte says it’s the Model 1. I haven’t seen any recent pictures of one.
Maybe there are no survivors.
–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –
And a pentagon shape too. Surfing around sidecar web sites, it seems the
cigar or Zeppelin shape was quite popular and other sidecar makers besides
Swallow like Watsonian and Hayward made them, although Walmsley may have
been the first. I also found a curious statement on an AJS web site, that
Swallow was one of their best customers. I don’t understand that. Could they
have got it wrong, that Swallow sold a lot of sidecars to AJS, or did they
mean Swallow bought unfinished frames from AJS? Anybody know more?
Rob Reilly> They also had a variation which was hexagonal in cross section.
There’s a 'c1925 Swallow Sidecar project for sale in the U.K… I registered and submitted a consignment bid on it, but now am having some concerns. Although the frame is stamped ‘SWALLOW,’ I’m not sure the body is a Swallow Sidecar body. It’s a bit more bulbous, and has a flat, pancake style tail. There’s nothing in Steve Kennedy’s book, “JAGUAR The Classic Marque,” that resembles it. Thoughts?
George
Look here for old Swallow Sidecar sales brochures.
https://www.jag-lovers.org/brochures/section_swallow.html
Thanks Rob. Nothing in the brochures close to the body being advertised as a Swallow. I’m pretty sure the frame is correct, but not sure of the body. .
Swallow Sidecar (1935) was bought by Halliwell, then Tube Investments, and then Watsonian, who all continued to use the name Swallow up into the 1950s.
Correct, Rob. Lyons divested ‘Jaguar’ of the SS sidecar line of the company immediately after the war, as part of Jaguar’s new direction.
The frames and bodies were not serial numbered, so I’m not sure how the seller determined this was a 1925, unless it was the octagonal body. SS sidecars initially used an octagonal body for the first several years, but changed to a pentagonal shape ~1927. They also introduced the flat-sided body at about the same time which led to them developing the enclosed cab with doors. But back to the octagonal shape of this one, I have not seen a picture or ad of one like this. And the body appears a bit more bulbous, not as slim and tapered as the original SS bodies were.
As far as I know, there are only 2 SS sidecars in the U.S., and Jim Hendricks in St. Louis, owns them both. One is a pentagonal-shaped Model 4a, and the other is flat-sided and enclosed. I briefly spoke with him about them several weeks ago at the Chattanooga Concours, where he won Best of Show with his recently restored SS1 Aero Coupe.
Right, wrong, or indifferent…I’m the new owner.
Congrats.
When you get it home, post some pictures here. Maybe we can figure out something useful about it.
Well, Rob, as far as being useful, I think it portrays the very beginning of Jaguar’s history, and I want to use it for that purpose. I plan to show it attached to my 1915 B.S.A. motor bicycle. I will display it in at least a couple of different variants, depending on the show. For Jaguar Concours, I will show it complete. For at least some non-Jaguar shows, I may remove the body, and replace it with a military litter, depicting B.S.A.'s previous use as a field-condition military ambulance.
The frame is the Model No 1 chassis, with what they called dual-axle suspension. It has an elliptical spring on each corner of the frame, where it connects to the body. Looks like this dates it to the first few years of SS production. So the 1925 advertised production date could very well be correct. Likewise with the octagonal-shaped body, as they went to a pentagonal-shaped body in the mid-1920s. As JCNA presently does not have a class for sidecars, I am working on a rule change request for them to create one. Per JCNA’s rule change application process, I’ve posted a thread in JagLovers ‘Concours’ section requesting comment, but so far no response. The U.K. freight company’s already picked it and prepping it for shipment.
Sorry I phrased that poorly, I meant we might be able to figure out something about the chassis, looking at pictures in Jaguar history books, but which you have already done.
The only octagonal Swallow body I found was the stub tail.
But Watsonian had one about the same time.
The pointy tail seems to have come in with the pentagonal shape.
The BSA idea sounds pretty cool.
I have no idea if JCNA will go for a sidecar class if there’s only 2 competitors in the USA. Display maybe.
Hey Rob, your input to the thread keeps my thoughts churning. Thanks. I found this late '20s factory photo showing several different Swallow sidecar bodies being produced simultaneously.
I found several pictures of this octagonal one claiming to be a Swallow, with a bulbous nose and pointy tail. It’s sitting on the Model No. 1 chassis with the quad-elliptical spring suspension.
I found this article showing several different octagonal body styles, i.e., bulbous with a pointy tail, and streamlined with a bobbed tail Sadly, the article’s too blurry to read. I’m still working on it trying to make it more legible.
There’s several images of Walmsley on a bike with either his wife or Lyons in an early octagonal-shaped one.
And I found this one claiming to be a Swallow, also attached to a Model No. 1 chassis. But again, it’s got a pointy tail, not a flat tail like mine.
Walmsley and Lyons were definitely offering them in multiple configurations, although I’ve yet to find one of the early ones with a flat tail. I’ll keep researching, but inevitably will have to wait several months for mine to arrive, to get a better understanding of what I’ve actually bought.
As far as a JCNA Concours rules change to include them, even though no one has responded to my request for input on in the Concours section of this Forum, I’ve already got the support of John Boswell, JCNA President.
Thanks Peter. My first thought was that ‘mine’ could have a Watsonian body, but after looking at them and doing more research, I’m left wondering. They’re close, but no closer than ones I have posted pictures of which claim to have Swallow bodies. I also found an article which claimed SS was one of Watsonian’s best customers. That adds another confusion factor, as I thought it would have been the other way around. Hopefully I’ll get a better handle on it when mine arrives…4-6 months from now.
Okay guys, I picked up my crate of SS sidecar last Thursday. Opened it yesterday. Spent today sorting parts and pieces, and I’m more confused than ever. First the frame.
The frame is clearly embossed "SWALLOW’ in 3 different places. It’s got 4 half-leaf springs…one at each corner, attached to crossbars where the body mounts. However, in the box of parts is a pair of elliptical springs, and another bar with two coil springs attached. Did my frame originally have leaf springs, or elliptical-coil spring combination? It looks like it could be configured either way. I found an early picture of Walmsley and Lyons in an octagonal-bodied one, with what appears to be the elliptical-coil combo. Per below picture, the quad-elliptical set up was called Model No. 1, but from what I’ve seen, wasn’t mass-produced until they came out with the pentagon-shaped body. The Model No. 2 looks like mine would if I put the dual elliptical springs on the rear and the coils on the front. I’m not sure when the leaf springs were produced. Was that an early design, or later? So was mine originally leaf, or elliptical-coil?
