[pre-xk] wire wheels for Mk V

Pre-XK
1

Listers,
Has anyone seen a MK V with wire wheels? Would the
bolt on wires for an XK-120 work? Are they strong
enough? Thanks for any comment.
Craig
1950 Mk V
1954 XK-120__________________________________________________
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2

Craig,
Any wheels that will go on a 120 will go on a MKV with the appropriate hub.
The front stub axles are the same. They’ll certainly be strong enough.
The PCD for the disc wheel studs is the same so bolt-on XK120 wheels would
fit.
Regards Angus.----- Original Message -----
From: “Craig Harper” awhson@yahoo.com
To: pre-xk@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 8:14 PM
Subject: [pre-xk] wire wheels for Mk V

Listers,
Has anyone seen a MK V with wire wheels? Would the
bolt on wires for an XK-120 work? Are they strong
enough? Thanks for any comment.
Craig
1950 Mk V
1954 XK-120

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3

Craig,

I have actually fitted wires to my MKV and sadly, the process is far from
straightforward. The first thing to consider is braking. If you are happy
with retaining drum brakes then you will have to fit the wire wheel hubs and
the dished brake drums from an XK120/140. I’m not absolutely certain about
the front brakes on a MKV but if, like the rears, they are completely
different from those of the wire wheeled 120, then you also have to fit the
XK120 back plates, cylinders and shoes. When changing to wires I took the
opportunity to fit front discs so I used XK150 wire wheel hubs and a Guy
Broad XK120/140 disc brake kit. It was all completely bolt on.

The rears were much more problematic. I fitted XK120 wire wheel hubs but was
forced also to change all the brake components for '120 items including, if
my memory is correct, the back plates, drums, cylinders, shoes, springs etc.
The rear spats also presented a real problem. The car simply looks awful
without them so we have modified them by cutting out (and wiring) a shape to
accommodate the spinner, which follows the flow of the wing line. They now
look very good. The car is currently away at the trimmers but I believe that
we have the spats and if you are interested I will take a picture for you.

I’m sorry to say that even with all the work needed to convert to wires, it
is still not plain sailing. We have yet to deal with two further issues.
First, XK120, 5 inch wires look hopelessly lost in the rear wheel arches. The
offset makes them appear to be too deep set.

I have a rally XK150 with a special set of 6 inch, double laced, 72 spokes
wires and I am hoping these may look right on the MKV. As soon as the MKV is
back from the trimmer I will try them out. I suspect however that a custom
set of wheels with an offset that brings the wheel more to the outside will
be required. If necessary this will be made up of 16 inch chrome rims, 6
inches wide with standard, long XK hubs and 72, double laced, stainless steel
spokes. These will also be stronger wheels. I will keep you posted.

The second area for concern is the question of tyres. I am very keen to fit
radials but find that the standard XK185/16 radials look a lot skinnier and
under-tyred than the original MKV cross-plies. Someone has suggested that I
might be able to use radials intended either for 4 x 4 or commercial
applications. Until the car is back I won’t be able to start the evaluation
process.

Sorry if all this sounds like a catalogue of difficulties but I have to say
that what started out as an attempt to fit front discs has rather escalated
into a major (and very expensive) project. I haven’t mentioned the issues
associated with fitting a vacuum servo unit, power steering (while retaining
the wonderful MKV steering column, wheel and horn/control manette unit) or a
five-speed gearbox.

I have rather kept my head down about the project, fearing the abuse that my
philistine tendencies tend to draw from the cognoscenti.

The work has more or less been on hold for the last year so my memory may be
at fault on some of the detail but things are about to restart in the next
few weeks.

Roger Learmonth

4

Roger,
I’m more interested in the “look” rather than actually
having functional wire wheels as such. On my XJ6C I
bought a set of Dayton bolt on wires that give the car
the wire wheel look but aren’t functional in the sense
of having working knock-off spinners.

Dayton makes bolt on wire wheels for the 120 I think
but no mention is made of the Mk V. And they don’t
know if they would work on the MkV. If the bolt
pattern of the MkV is the same as the 120, then they
might work, but that raised the question of strength
in my mind. The bolt on wires I have on my XJ6 are
plenty strong, but the bolt pattern is different I
think plus they are 15" wheels.

I believe the Dayton wire wheels for the 120 have a 6"
width, so that should work fine with the 6.50x16
tires.

Craig
1950 Mk V
1954 XK 120 OTS
— Rogerlearmonth@aol.com wrote:> Craig,

I have actually fitted wires to my MKV and sadly,
the process is far from
straightforward. The first thing to consider is
braking. If you are happy
with retaining drum brakes then you will have to fit
the wire wheel hubs and
the dished brake drums from an XK120/140. I’m not
absolutely certain about
the front brakes on a MKV but if, like the rears,
they are completely
different from those of the wire wheeled 120, then
you also have to fit the
XK120 back plates, cylinders and shoes. When
changing to wires I took the
opportunity to fit front discs so I used XK150 wire
wheel hubs and a Guy
Broad XK120/140 disc brake kit. It was all
completely bolt on.

The rears were much more problematic. I fitted XK120
wire wheel hubs but was
forced also to change all the brake components for
'120 items including, if
my memory is correct, the back plates, drums,
cylinders, shoes, springs etc.
The rear spats also presented a real problem. The
car simply looks awful
without them so we have modified them by cutting out
(and wiring) a shape to
accommodate the spinner, which follows the flow of
the wing line. They now
look very good. The car is currently away at the
trimmers but I believe that
we have the spats and if you are interested I will
take a picture for you.

I’m sorry to say that even with all the work needed
to convert to wires, it
is still not plain sailing. We have yet to deal with
two further issues.
First, XK120, 5 inch wires look hopelessly lost in
the rear wheel arches. The
offset makes them appear to be too deep set.

I have a rally XK150 with a special set of 6 inch,
double laced, 72 spokes
wires and I am hoping these may look right on the
MKV. As soon as the MKV is
back from the trimmer I will try them out. I suspect
however that a custom
set of wheels with an offset that brings the wheel
more to the outside will
be required. If necessary this will be made up of 16
inch chrome rims, 6
inches wide with standard, long XK hubs and 72,
double laced, stainless steel
spokes. These will also be stronger wheels. I will
keep you posted.

The second area for concern is the question of
tyres. I am very keen to fit
radials but find that the standard XK185/16 radials
look a lot skinnier and
under-tyred than the original MKV cross-plies.
Someone has suggested that I
might be able to use radials intended either for 4 x
4 or commercial
applications. Until the car is back I won’t be able
to start the evaluation
process.

Sorry if all this sounds like a catalogue of
difficulties but I have to say
that what started out as an attempt to fit front
discs has rather escalated
into a major (and very expensive) project. I haven’t
mentioned the issues
associated with fitting a vacuum servo unit, power
steering (while retaining
the wonderful MKV steering column, wheel and
horn/control manette unit) or a
five-speed gearbox.

I have rather kept my head down about the project,
fearing the abuse that my
philistine tendencies tend to draw from the
cognoscenti.

The work has more or less been on hold for the last
year so my memory may be
at fault on some of the detail but things are about
to restart in the next
few weeks.

Roger Learmonth

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5

Craig,
If the bolt-ons will fit the 120, they’ll fit the MkV. You may have to leave
off the spats depending on there being any clearance for the wheel centre.
The 120 bolt-ons will be designed for the flat non-wire wheel brake drums so
they must fit a MK V. I can assure you the stud spacing (PCD) is the same.
Strength should not be an issue as there are big safety factors built into
safety critical things like wheels. If you wanted to autocross your MkV it
might be a different story but most forces on wheels in the ordinary way
tend to be limited by ultimate grip. Those forces influenced by inertia,
which of course will be greater for the more massive MKV, will be increased
but conversely the MV will not reach as high a maximum speed as the 120,
the MKV engine only puts out 125bhp against the 120’s 160bhp and the torque
experienced by the wheel will be generally less. The MkV weighs 3696lb, the
120 2856 lb. The inertial forces increase as the square of the speed but
linearly with mass. Hence the inertial forces will be about 1.3 times those
on a 120 wheel at the same speed. The safety factor however will likely be
at least 2 or 3 times the maximum expected load.
Regards Angus.----- Original Message -----
From: “Craig Harper” awhson@yahoo.com
To: pre-xk@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [pre-xk] wire wheels for Mk V

Roger,
I’m more interested in the “look” rather than actually
having functional wire wheels as such. On my XJ6C I
bought a set of Dayton bolt on wires that give the car
the wire wheel look but aren’t functional in the sense
of having working knock-off spinners.

Dayton makes bolt on wire wheels for the 120 I think
but no mention is made of the Mk V. And they don’t
know if they would work on the MkV. If the bolt
pattern of the MkV is the same as the 120, then they
might work, but that raised the question of strength
in my mind. The bolt on wires I have on my XJ6 are
plenty strong, but the bolt pattern is different I
think plus they are 15" wheels.

I believe the Dayton wire wheels for the 120 have a 6"
width, so that should work fine with the 6.50x16
tires.

Craig
1950 Mk V
1954 XK 120 OTS
— Rogerlearmonth@aol.com wrote:

Craig,

I have actually fitted wires to my MKV and sadly,
the process is far from
straightforward. The first thing to consider is
braking. If you are happy
with retaining drum brakes then you will have to fit
the wire wheel hubs and
the dished brake drums from an XK120/140. I’m not
absolutely certain about
the front brakes on a MKV but if, like the rears,
they are completely
different from those of the wire wheeled 120, then
you also have to fit the
XK120 back plates, cylinders and shoes. When
changing to wires I took the
opportunity to fit front discs so I used XK150 wire
wheel hubs and a Guy
Broad XK120/140 disc brake kit. It was all
completely bolt on.

The rears were much more problematic. I fitted XK120
wire wheel hubs but was
forced also to change all the brake components for
'120 items including, if
my memory is correct, the back plates, drums,
cylinders, shoes, springs etc.
The rear spats also presented a real problem. The
car simply looks awful
without them so we have modified them by cutting out
(and wiring) a shape to
accommodate the spinner, which follows the flow of
the wing line. They now
look very good. The car is currently away at the
trimmers but I believe that
we have the spats and if you are interested I will
take a picture for you.

I’m sorry to say that even with all the work needed
to convert to wires, it
is still not plain sailing. We have yet to deal with
two further issues.
First, XK120, 5 inch wires look hopelessly lost in
the rear wheel arches. The
offset makes them appear to be too deep set.

I have a rally XK150 with a special set of 6 inch,
double laced, 72 spokes
wires and I am hoping these may look right on the
MKV. As soon as the MKV is
back from the trimmer I will try them out. I suspect
however that a custom
set of wheels with an offset that brings the wheel
more to the outside will
be required. If necessary this will be made up of 16
inch chrome rims, 6
inches wide with standard, long XK hubs and 72,
double laced, stainless steel
spokes. These will also be stronger wheels. I will
keep you posted.

The second area for concern is the question of
tyres. I am very keen to fit
radials but find that the standard XK185/16 radials
look a lot skinnier and
under-tyred than the original MKV cross-plies.
Someone has suggested that I
might be able to use radials intended either for 4 x
4 or commercial
applications. Until the car is back I won’t be able
to start the evaluation
process.

Sorry if all this sounds like a catalogue of
difficulties but I have to say
that what started out as an attempt to fit front
discs has rather escalated
into a major (and very expensive) project. I haven’t
mentioned the issues
associated with fitting a vacuum servo unit, power
steering (while retaining
the wonderful MKV steering column, wheel and
horn/control manette unit) or a
five-speed gearbox.

I have rather kept my head down about the project,
fearing the abuse that my
philistine tendencies tend to draw from the
cognoscenti.

The work has more or less been on hold for the last
year so my memory may be
at fault on some of the detail but things are about
to restart in the next
few weeks.

Roger Learmonth

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6

Angus,
Thanks for the input. I’ll start scanning the internet
for some good used wire wheels like I mentioned, but I
realize I’ll probably end up buying new ones from
Dayton, British Wire Wheel or Coker.
Craig— “a.d.j.murray” a.d.j.murray@ntlworld.com wrote:

Craig,
If the bolt-ons will fit the 120, they’ll fit the
MkV.

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7

In reply to a message from Craig Harper sent Thu 27 Feb 2003:

Actually the nicest picture I recall seeing of a Mk5 with wires is
in Jaguar Tradition from memory. it showed one of the mock ups with
18’’ wires , probably because they used a Mk4 chassis to start on.
Looked almost as good as a Mk4.
If the spats are a problem, why not modify the rear guards and
rewire the edge to Mk4 shape with the extra material behind the
wheel following the line of the wheel arch?
And , always ready to assist , could I recommend those wheel trims
that were available years ago… clip on imitation wire wheels.

Ed Nantes.–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

8

Ed,
The idea of using the 18" wires of a MkIV had occurred
to me, but the availability and price would be
prohibitive. I also like the non hydraulic brakes of
the older model, but I’m not about to switch out.
Maybe I should just swap my MkV for somebody’s MkIV
:wink:

I did check with Dayton and the bolt on wires for the
120 is 70 spokes, and should be plenty strong for a
MkV. The view of the rear with wire wheels and no
spats would be similar it appears to me of the look of
an SS100’s rear, a view I don’t mind at all.
Craig
— enantes@bigpond.com wrote:> In reply to a message from Craig Harper sent Thu 27

Feb 2003:

Actually the nicest picture I recall seeing of a
Mk5 with wires is
in Jaguar Tradition from memory. it showed one of
the mock ups with
18’’ wires , probably because they used a Mk4
chassis to start on.

Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM
[forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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9

On the back cover of the Brooklands Gold Portfolio of 1931-51 road
tests, there is a photo of a Mark V saloon with what appears to be 15"
wire wheels, knock-offs not bolt-ons, and the rear fenders (wings) are
modified to look like Mark IV style. The tires look too small for the
car, too much gap around them. The front fenders are Frenched in to
reduce the width of running board, not really my cup of tea.

I’ve always liked the spats. The mock-up in “Jaguar Tradition” p66 that
Ed mentioned has full spats, even a bit of art-deco trim, and it would
appear they never got as far as worrying about hub clearance problems.

If you used XK120 splined hubs, the splines get beat up from all the
accelerating and braking. I would be concerned about the extra weight
aggravating this wear.

I never really thought the Mark V brakes were all that bad, as long as
they are properly adjusted, they always seemed fine to me for ordinary
driving. Its the tires that most affect braking distance. We’ve had
several reports from Mark V and VII owners who have switched to 16"
radial tires, and they say the difference is phenomenal.

Rob Reilly - 627933

10

.

If you used XK120 splined hubs, the splines get beat up from all the
accelerating and braking. I would be concerned about the extra weight
aggravating this wear.

Often a large proportion of the “wear” that splines experience is not just
wear in the abrasion sense. It is also “dry fretting corrosion”. Often you
will find that the splines appear rusty and it is this corrosion which is
eating away the splines. Regular cleaning and greasing the splines vastly
reduces it. Greasing the splines is as much about excluding oxygen to
prevent fretting corrosion as it is about lubricating them and providing
hydraulic cushioning. A better method which will make new splines last much
longer is to get them and the wheel centres Xylan coated (a fluoromer ie
teflon type coating) and then grease them. This makes the wheels easy to
remove, stops dry fretting corrosion and virtually eliminates wear. You can
also temporarily run them dry of grease for concours events where grease
would otherwise tend to penetrate the spoke drillings on wire wheels. The
seating cones should not be coated so as to minimise movement of the spline
in the wheel centre.
Regards Angus Murray.

1 Like
11

Rob,
I agree about the use of 15" wheels on a MK V. Also
the bolt on wires eliminate the spline concern. 15"
bolt ons wouldn’t fit on the MkV hub anyway.

By using bolt-on wires, I retain the ability to go
back to the original wheels which is important to
some.
My reference to preferring the brakes on a Mk IV has
to do more with my laziness than anything else. I tend
to restore a car, get involved in another project, and
the restored car sits, and you know the rest. The
brakes almost always have to be bleed and rebuilt even
sometimes. So there’s nothing wrong with the hydraulic
brakes on a MkV; I just know with mechanical brakes I
wouldn’t have that problem. Thankfully the clutch on
the MkV is still mechanical!
Craig

The tires look too small for the
car, too much gap around them. > If you used XK120
splined hubs, the splines get beat
up from all the
accelerating and braking. > I never really thought
the Mark V brakes were all— “R,J,G&KReilly” xk120q@ix.netcom.com wrote:
that bad, >
Rob Reilly - 627933

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