Hi Scott,
When you do final assembly of the spline into hub, I would suggest you not use any grease, clean both parts well and use red loctite all over and along the splines. Too many of us have had problems with clicking which requires taking it out and redoing with red loctite
Dennis
69 OTS
Bill,
I looked up the Angel M80 target rifle.
Are you the designer and manufacturer of the rifle?
Hello Dennis,
I wouldn’t use Red Loctite, unless you had no intention of ever pulling it apart again, as the splined shaft will be a bear to remove from the assembly. One of the less permanent Thread Lock Loctite products work just as well. Bearing Retainer Loctite also works well.
Regards,
Bill
Hello Marco,
Yes. That was a long time ago. I subsequently designed an improved version circa 10 years later.
Regards,
Bill
An expert in cars and fire arms.
I’m impressed.
Still manufacturing the rifle ?
If it has not clicked before, I totally agree with you.
But once it starts to click, my opinion is that red loctite is the fix although one needs to heat it up in order press the spline out years later.
But it is the next owner of my car who will perhaps have to press it out one day!
Dennis
I am consistently amazed at the quality and scope of the discussions brought forth on J-L. So to answer…or at least comment.
For Bill. The Hot Shot comment is interesting. I do know a bit about metallurgy being involved at both NASA LeRC and Oak Ridge Nat Laboratory creating materials for heat engines - ceramics mostly for use as ball bearings and castings for turbine wheels and rocket motors, etc. I do appreciate the need to heat cast iron and then bring it down slowly but this doesn’t seem to relate to my (I believe, metallurgical) issue with the sump’s aluminum casting. At the moment it’ll remain a trophy.
I too, am impressed that you are the creator of the Angel M80. Like I said, “Hats off!”. I imagine the lender of the 22 in Holland was delighted to have his rifle returned with a provenance that you created.
On the fixing of the seal rim bruise, what I finally resorted to was akin to your turning specific disks. I simply used the old (very sturdy) made-in-England seal and forced it into the host cup for the seal thereby shoving the bruise back into place. I think. At any rate, I sparingly removed material from the wall at the bruise until I was able to insert it. It is a tight fit. I am wondering if I should use, a la Dennismo, a sealant when I finally insert the seal. Your ideas are quite inventive and workable and I’m delighted you chose to share them with me.
Dennis. As I’ve never driven my car (well, once down my driveway and back) I have no idea if the hubs click or not. But, I thank you for reminding me of this potential problem. I probably won’t use red Locktite, but will do as Bill A. suggests with something less permanent. At my age (75) I doubt I could hear clicking anyway - too many guns, airplanes, motors and loud Rock in my past. It’ll be my youngest son’s problem!
Marco…I am with you. I’ve been told Bill A. is a talented guy. And, he is!
Thank you all for the contributions.
Seconded: blue would be the most I would use, if any at all.
Paul, this particular splined pair have to be driven together. They seem quite tight, not unduly so, just tight like I think it should be. What would you advise?
A small amount of bearing grease, to minimize spalling and rust.
Hello Scot,
When we do weld repairs to aluminum sumps for E Types, we always heat the whole unit, complete the weld and then back into the oven to allow it to cool with the oven. I have the facility to heat soak the whole unit, so it would be silly to not take advantage of it. Apart from the stresses due to local heating and cooling, that are avoided by our process of heating the whole unit and then having the whole component cool in a very controlled manner, weld penetration is also enhanced due to the preheating.
The following picture is of a manifold for an ancient tractor, brought to us after cracks in it had been welded by supposedly expert welders. After failing with fusion welding, they resorted to bronze brazing and once bronze brazing is introduced, that’s the end to any attempt to fusion weld. You can see in the second picture below, another crack that has developed at the boundary of the repair, post the braze repair.
Our resolve to the issue, was to have another part cast and machine it. The following pictures are of the new cast part. As this is a one off casting, the patterns for the part were 3D printed.
Regards,
Bill
Hello Marco,
Yes, still making them.
I wasn’t aware of the Wikipedia article on the action until told about it by a friend. When I went to visited the site, I saw numerous other references to the Angel M80 in the Google list of sites, one being a Forum on Target Rifles. There was quite a discussion going on about my action and one Post reporting that I had died circa 6 years before.
I didn’t think I would ever get the opportunity to do so, but I took much delight in being able to join the Forum and quote Mark Twain’s often misquoted quip The report of my death was an exaggeration 
Regards,
Bill
I would use Loctite if, and only if, the splines are worn and they have noticeable play.
If you put Loctite the only way to take them appart again would be with a press.
Put grease to protect from rust.
Is that Hub Carrier the same as the Saloons ?
If so, $50 would probably get you another one, I have at least 10 sitting around
Hello Aristides,
We get a few hubs to dismantle each year where the owner has tried themselves and because the male and female spline has been assembled using a high strength Loctite, they have damaged the end of the splined axle. The Threaded Journal has a deep centre drilling and two cross holes for a split pin. The result of this is quite a weak section and if a pointed arbor is used with a press, a bursting force is applied to the centre drilling and there is a big chance of breaking the end of the thread.
Following is my version of the JD7A Hub dismantling tool.
The tool resting on the timber packers is for display only, to show the Hub Assembly coming up through the plate from below. A flat ended arbor is used with a nut installed and flush with the end of the Thread to offer the greatest degree of protection when getting the axle to move initially.
This setup is able to apply the full 50 ton force of the press, but 8 ton is my limit before using heat to destroy the characteristics of Loctite that may be used. Heating with a flame is hard to obtain enough heat where its required, for there is a considerable air gap of insulation in the area the heat is required the most. A soaking heat is require, as obtained from an oven and for that purpose, I have an oven that the whole assemble can be placed in.
Regards,
Bill
Hi Bill,
I have seen several Saloons (including my XJ12) snap the outer splined half-shaft right at the outer nut (I know the E-types have a different arrangement), but the same outer half shaft ?
Have you come across this ?
When I jacked up the rear, the wheel & tyre just flopped down
I strongly suspect this is why Jaguar possibly advised dealers to use Loctite on the splines
We have a super strong tool in our club, built by the Service Manager at Kenworth Trucks, and on another vehicle, I used a 6ft pipe to separate these parts
Hello Tony,
All of the cars with the independent rear suspension and inboard disk brakes have the same Hub/Spline arrangement. I’ve seen a couple of splined shafts broken through the Thread, flush with the inner face of the nut. In my opinion, the reason is probably due to the nut being over torqued and the location you describe would be the logical place for the Thread to fail, if it were going to.
The clicking noise was the reason I’ve seen documented for the use of Loctite and that procedure was withdrawn in a later memo.
Not withstanding Archimedes’ comment of “If you give me a lever long enough and a place to stand, I can move the world”, I doubt that a JD7 tool that relied on a screw thread to apply the force, would be able to separate an assembly that used one of the high strength Loctites, unless the assembly was heated sufficiently to destroy the characteristics of the Loctite. A fairly fine Thread Lead, or moderate Lead with a fairly large Thread OD, to result in a helix angle that gave good mechanical advantage would be required.
Whichever system is used, care should always be taken to prevent damage to the end of the thread. As I said in my earlier Post, we get a few broken threads to deal with each year, where the client has broken the thread of one axle by applying a bursting force to the deep centre drilling at the end of the shaft, before seeking help.
Regards,
Bill
Thanks Bill,
In the very earliest days of this forums existence there was an Automotive Engineer from Sydney, (who was also a Motoring Journalist), but I cant recall his name.
His explanation was that it was a basic engineering flaw in that the taper on the shaft ended and the thread began straight away and that his “fix” was to machine a small groove in between so this was no longer the case ( I have read this is an issue in similar situations). Its in the Archives somewhere complete with diagrams
Having said that, when I dismantled that IRS further, I did find mangled shims that suggest overtightening. The IRS had apparently been rebuilt by a Jaguar “specialist”
(Another IRS, not the broken one)
The tool we have is massively stronger than the below pictured JD1
It definitely had some sort of locking compound on it, you could see it
I did not use heat, but absolutely busted my guts getting the thing off
I hate red Loctite and wont use it, I use blue instead
Its also used from the factory on Jeep Cherokee XJ rear spring bolts, and you supposedly cant get them out without heat, but I have done a few, also a gut buster…they have a nut welded inside the frame, and it apparently often breaks of when you try, meaning you have to cut the frame open, weld a new nut on, and weld the frame back together
Hello Tony,
I agree with that and the reason I stated the logical location of the failure. Over torqueing a Thread Members more often results in the component not remaining tight, rather than catastrophic failure. This type of failure is normally the result of a stress point and particularly when combined with over torqueing.
When cutting an annular groove to run a Thread into, a groove with any corner radii is always more desirable than a groove with sharp corners of the concave. Accordingly, corner radii as large as is practical are generally used.
Neither the Standard JD1C nor the JD7 has a chance is hell of separating the splines if High Strength Loctite has been used without heat being applied…
Regards,
Bill
You guys can continue to dissect and discuss the ins and outs of IRS rebuilding.
I am still trying to wrap my mind around the above.
For us blokes on the wrong side of the pond:
300 meters = 984.25+ feet – lets just call it 1,000 feet = 328 yds
The 10-Ring on Bill’s target is 10 cm diameter (that’s ~4")
The official US Baseball is 7.5 cm diameter (that’s just under 3")
The X-Ring on Bill’s target is 5 cm diameter (that’s ~2")
For the technically minded:
360 = degrees in a circle
Each degree has 60 minutes
1 Minute of Angle (MOA) (1/360th of a circle) = 1" at 100 yards
Bill’s margin of error = ~1 MOA
If I did my math correctly (no guaranteed) the 10-ring on Bill’s 50-m target = 1/4"
