[Saloon-lovers] JDHT Certificates

Interesting experience with the JDHT. Requested a
certificate on my 1966 ‘S’ Type recently and when the
temporary showed that the car was built with a Beige leather
interior, I provided the original purchase order specifying
Suede Green interior, the color that was actually fitted
(pictures from date of delivery show it as Suede Green).
The official Certificate states Beige and the apology simply
says that they go by the build record they have available.
I wonder if others have had this experience and if Jag kept
a change order book that JDHT doesn�t have access to. Make
we wonder how useful these things really are?
FWIW
ILOB–
1966 3.8 S-Type
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Iain,
If you are dealing with Mahwah – STOP!!! They have LITTLE idea what
they are doing!!

You need to contact Anders Clausager at Brown’s Lane.

Tell him what you have for proof and what you are being told. He has MUCH
better records even though they claim the records at Brown’s Lane are the
same as Mahwah — they are not.
I am a perfect example. They told me that my Right Hand Drive 420 with UK
registration Mark KRL 376E was delivered to shipside for a customer in
Newquay, New Jersey. I told them that they were wrong, it did not make
sense and since they were IN New Jersey they should KNOW that there has
never been a Newquay in New Jersey. The KRL registration mark put the car
in Newquay, Cornwall, England on the coast. After some Internet research, I
found the daughter of the original owner and she sent me a photo of her Dad
with the car – in the UK.

Even after I told Mahwah what I had found, they still refused to believe
that they were wrong. I contacted Brown’s Lane and they confirmed to me that
the car was NOT shipped directly to the US because it had the wrong
paperwork notations. They told me that the car had been sold by an English
distributor to an English Dealership in Exeter, Devon, England. It did not
have any of the safety features required by the US at that time and was
produced as a UK model with amber tail lights and front turn signals. I
wouldn’t repeat the comment’s Brown’s Lane made regarding Mahwah, but they
were not kind.

Even after all that or possibly despite Brown’s Lane providing the
additional information, Mahwah STILL refused to agree and so in order to get
my certificate, I had to sign a statement agreeing that the certificate
simply state that the car was shipped to Newquay – no country. Thus,
according to Jaguar, my 420 will remain a car without a country!!

Keep in mind that there ARE oddities that take place. I have a friend with
an XKE that was shipped to the US as the pea green color. The dealership
had it painted Midnight blue before delivery because the owner did not want
to wait for a Blue one from the factory. So the 1973 delivery title says the
car is green and the registration for that year says the car is blue.

Mahwah can’t be bothered with actually looking this stuff up with any sort
of diligence. Brown’s Lane on the other hand considers themselves the keeper
of the flame so they are a bit more willing to dig for the differences. They
have been extremely helpful regarding the differences on my Police S-Type,
digging out the build specifications to determine that it had a Positive
Earth alternator and flat XKE type front engine mounts. Contact Brown’s Lane
directly and tell them what you have with the supporting documentation and
Photos. See what they say.

Clark
'67 420
'67 S-Type
'88 XJ40

Interesting experience with the JDHT. Requested a
certificate on my 1966 ‘S’ Type recently and when the
temporary showed that the car was built with a Beige leather
interior, I provided the original purchase order specifying
Suede Green interior, the color that was actually fitted
(pictures from date of delivery show it as Suede Green).
The official Certificate states Beige and the apology simply
says that they go by the build record they have available.
I wonder if others have had this experience and if Jag kept
a change order book that JDHT doesn’t have access to. Make
we wonder how useful these things really are?
FWIW
ILOB

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Clark, forgive my ignorance, but is Mahwah (sounds like that terrorist on
24) the same as the JDHD? And how does one contact Mr. Clausager?

My certificate says my Mk 10 was black on black, but I found buried evidence
of a red interior that looks original…

Cheers,–
Allan Kirson
'62 Mark 10 350090BW
'63 Mark 10 parts car (aka the “Hulk”)

Iain,
If you are dealing with Mahwah – STOP!!! They have LITTLE idea what
they are doing!!

You need to contact Anders Clausager at Brown’s Lane.

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Allan,
Mahwah is Mahwah, New Jersey where Jaguar North America is/was located.
To contact JDHT in the UK: http://www.jag-lovers.org/cert.html?ql

Clark
'67 S-Type
'67 420
'"88 XJ40

Clark, forgive my ignorance, but is Mahwah (sounds like that terrorist on
24) the same as the JDHD? And how does one contact Mr. Clausager?

My certificate says my Mk 10 was black on black, but I found buried
evidence
of a red interior that looks original…

Cheers,

Allan Kirson
'62 Mark 10 350090BW
'63 Mark 10 parts car (aka the “Hulk”)

Iain,
If you are dealing with Mahwah – STOP!!! They have LITTLE idea
what

they are doing!!

You need to contact Anders Clausager at Brown’s Lane.

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In reply to a message from Iain in Reno sent Tue 17 May 2005:

JDHT mailed from New Jersey a decent certificate for my 1950 Mark
V. It was useful for getting 1950 ‘‘year of manufacture’’ license
plates approved by the California Department of Motor Vehicles. In
that capacity the certificates have some legal value in the US so
records issuance probably is a little delicate in the minds of JDHT
when asked to deviate from what may be in their records.

My car originally had been sold from Los Angeles (Hornburg Jaguar
dealer) and has been in California its entire life. The state title
showed the car as 1951 and the vehicle ID as the engine number.
Maybe it took until 1951 to sell or was offered as a 1951 model-
year car after American practice that brought new models out around
September. So I used JDHT’s certificate to get a legal document
changed; it was accepted by California for that purpose.

JDHT sent the tentative proof copy to me with a 3.4 litre engine
listed. All other details were fine. They corrected that to 3.5
litres on my notice for the formal certificate. Maybe JDHT will get
some fraction of the details wrong. When that happens, surely it is
disappointing and disconcerting for the particular owner. I have no
idea what the error rate is in New Jersey on these matters. I’m
happy, yet the disappointment for not correcting simply-understood
errors is understandable. ‘‘Newquay’’ does not pop up on MapQuest and
I don’t recall a town of that name in New Jersey. On the other
hand, would it make sense to mark a car as bound for a new quay in
New Jersey if the dock arrangements were in transition? This seems
more of a stretch than the Cornwall delivery offered above. Sorry
to hear of disappointment.–
Roger McWilliams
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Like Ian in Reno, I have had some problems with JDHT Certificates. The one
that came with my Mark 2 said it
was built in 1961, yet the engine/chassis numbers and window glass etching
indicated 1962.
When I enquired with JDHT Certificates, they said they had made an error, I
did have a 1962 version and then sent
a new certificate to prove it. They still wanted the full whack cash-wise
though!
Don Keiller,
1962, Mark 2, 3.4, MOd, CWWs,
Cambridge,
UK

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In reply to a message from Don Keiller sent Tue 17 May 2005:

Listers, thank you all very much, VERY interesting. Just as I
suspected, these old records may not always be authoratative!
Iain–
1966 3.8 S-Type
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In reply to a message from Iain in Reno sent Tue 17 May 2005:

Again the facts stated here are wrong and troubling. JDHT is not
Mahwah. Mahwah is authorized to issue certificates here in the US
under the auth. of the JDHT (in Coventry). THEY use the same
microfilm in both locations. Having researched several cars with
the late Charlie Morgan and Karen Miller (also late) I can tell you
that the records are very difficult to read. That is the reason
they take the time to send a pre copy. As far as the 3.4 vs the 3.5
Litre goes there is actually no 3.5liter. It is I think a 3.496
liter just under the 3.5 tax bump. Not important but oh so
important in the UK. As far as the current staff at Mahwah they do
a great job and the fee is extremely reasonable for archive
research. If you don’t think so get a quote on repairing a 30+ year
old microfilm reader/printer. Good luck!!! As far as the authority
of the records goes everyone who has researched records knows there
are mistakes. Some in recording and some in production buut as a
whole they have proven over time to be well above 99% accurate.
Lets not throw stones at these dedicated people who help thousands
of folks a year. By the way if you ask the JDHT for a certificate
they normally turn you over to Mahwah if you are in NA.–
George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
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In reply to a message from Cwestneat sent Tue 17 May 2005:

What an unfair statement. I know you have been frustrated by your
cars inc. the police car and in fact Mike Cook would probably tell
you that he couldn’t help much but to slam the group is not your
style. I knew and know all of the folks that are trusted to do this
at Mahwah and they are dedicated. Hell most are volunteers so you
can’t fire them. They are also limited by law as to what they can
change and do. We are talking about the build sheets here and the
possibility they will be used as origin documents by some people.
The Uk is somewhat removed from the Federal limits but should
follow the same rules. The build ledgers have a lot of imformation
that you will never see but is available if you prove certain
things–such as the key codes for your car and some have dyno info
for the engine. As far as what you know and what they read if the
sheets say something they have to go with it. They are usually
good enough to put comments at the bottom to prevent problems. I
had a XK140 that all numbers matched except the last digit of the
trans. After providing a rubbing of the SN a note was placed on the
cert. that this was a mistake in recording as the possibility of a
replacement trans with the last digit 1 off was too much to
contemplate. When it comes to LHD cars I would bet you get much
better service from Mahwah as this was that market. Please consider
revising your comments as a favor to all volunteers. I know Karen
Miller (disceased) and Charlie Morgan (disceased) were both
sticklers for accuracy and have watched them both study with loops
an entry to determine what the hand writing said—thats right the
records are hand written to I think 1980. So please consider this
and read my lower post.–
George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
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George,
I was only relating what I was said by Brown’s Lane about Mahwah after I
contacted them regarding the questions about my 420. The data I received
regarding my S-Type was accurate as far as I know.

'67 420
'67 S-Type
'88 XJ40

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In reply to a message from Cwestneat sent Thu 19 May 2005:

Well say that! Your statement as I read it was they couldn’ or
wouldn’t help if they could. I don’t know the story but will find
out on your 420 but you know there is a NEWQUAY in England. The
build sheets only reflect the dest. upon dispatch. They used
warranty and dealer info to track after that and if there is a hole
in the info it was the dealers. Cars with completed cards reflect
first owner. Most do not. Some of the info gleaned from the sheets
reguire dated knowledge of the English tax system. I have two cars
that were US cars delivered under the tax free dilivery system in
the UK. Only the sheet’s reflection of a UK reg. number gives you
the clue. I know that the Archives in Mahwah are of great help. I
thy to help them and donate stuff and when needed help out. I know
how hard they work as I was one for a while. This piling on stuff
in the threads just bothers me so and more so when I consider the
folks who do the work friends.–
George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
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In reply to a message from Don Keiller sent Tue 17 May 2005:

Well Don you are arguing my point. You are in the UK? You do use
the JDHT which these good folk say is perfect. Problem is that
they are talking about the Archives in the US which issues the
JDHT certificates. Thanks for making my arguement>–
George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
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George,

They are even smaller than you thought. 3442cc, meaning that even if you
rounded it to the nearest decalitre you would still end up with a 3.4.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson
'52 XK120 S673129, '59 Mk1 (both 3.4L), '84,'85,'86 &'95 XJ6

As far as the 3.4 vs the 3.5 Litre goes there is actually no 3.5liter. It is
I think a 3.496 liter just under the 3.5 tax bump.

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George, I am not arguing anyone’s point- merely relating my own personal
experience with JDHT to the group.
I can see how mistakes can be made- none of us is perfect!
My only gripe is that having pointed out their error, I was still charged
the full price for the correct certificate.
Don Keiller,
1962 Mark2, 3.4L, MOd, CWWs,
Cambridge,
UK

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In reply to a message from Don Keiller sent Thu 19 May 2005:

Right— you are in the UK --you deal with the JDHT. In the USA or
more correctly North America we deal with the Jaguar archives at
Mahwah.–
George Camp
Columbia SC, United States
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In reply to a message from Iain in Reno sent Tue 17 May 2005:

Iain, I emailed JDHT in England with a question concerning the
original paint color for my MK 2 and promptly recieved the needed
info and alot more from staff member Julie Simpson at no charge.
All the info was correct and they could not have been more helpful.
By the way, your S type looks great! It will serve as an
inspiration to me as I putter my way through the MK 2 restoration.

Mark 1963 MK 2 4sp w/od chww brg–
The original message included these comments:

Interesting experience with the JDHT. Requested a


bollixx
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In reply to a message from bollixx sent Fri 20 May 2005:

Thanks Billixx:
I just sent Ms Simpson a request yesterday. We shall see
what they come up with and AI’ll post the result.
Iain–
The original message included these comments:

Iain, I emailed JDHT in England with a question concerning the
original paint color for my MK 2 and promptly recieved the needed
info and alot more from staff member Julie Simpson at no charge.
All the info was correct and they could not have been more helpful.


1966 3.8 S-Type
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