Very sorry to hear! And that on top of a relatively recent bout of car theft.
In addition to my reaction of sincere empathy, I am saddened that even sites like J-L are susceptible to fraudulent troll operations. Also (though I realize levity is not called for) I am surprised that you were on the purchasing end of this transaction, Pete. Typically, someone is looking for a 150S rear blivit and you have several, asking if they prefer the earlier cad plated unobtanium or the later case-hardened obscurium. I imagined that you had dozens of E-type triple SU setups amongst your spares.
From a reality based perspective, if vendors of antique car parts have to be prepared to “stand behind” each of the 1,000’s of parts they sell by being prepared to reimburse for engine tear downs, etc as some here are advocating, we’d all complain about the ridiculous costs of buying such parts! We would quickly find that these parts are NLA as no supplier wants to take on the risk.
The parts we now buy are low volumes, relative to original production runs. Yet we want OEM / factory quality at low cost. It’s hard to pull this off for the suppliers. When I read Peters suggestion that we “grow a pair” my interpretation was that we need to be responsible consumers. We need to research and compare. Once we receive the replacement parts, look to see how well they match up against the original. Again, low volume production will have a difficult time reproducing parts in the same way they were made for a high volume automotive assembly line. This is particularly true for metal parts that require stamping or any fabrication tooling. I say this as someone who worked for years in the metal fabrication industry. What can be made precisely and cost effectively on a 100 ton press with, expensive, “hard tooling” and what can be done with low volume “soft tooling” are two different worlds in terms of quality and cost.
Finally, there is an argument to be made that typically we don’t need the OEM level of quality. When sold new these cars were expected to be driven many thousands of miles each year. For some, myself included, it was my daily driver back in the 70’s. Now, decades later, most will not see 10,000 miles in ten years. So manufacturing parts with 100,000 mile life expectancies is overkill. We don’t need it, and we will be reluctant to pay for it.
I’m not suggesting they stand behind every part they source. I’ve tossed a number of parts on the scrap heap because I couldn’t modify them to work properly or they were poor quality and not worth returning. Part of the game. But when it comes to an internal engine part, that’s another story. They dang well better have some sort of internal quality standard for things that can wreck a $15-20K engine. I read about the second or third Rolon self destruct just as I was installing one during my engine build. I removed it from the enginer and called the supplier. They denied there was an issue and refused to take the old one on return because I had installed it (never run…just bolted it on). So then I explained the recent failure and asked if they had another option. No. So I contacted a competitor who just happened to have brought a newer Rolon part into their inventory…the type with the wrap around rubber shoe. So I bought one. Turns out it did not have the “reducer nipple” pressed into the casting. Without the reducer, oil would have gushed through the tensioner and oil pressure would have been zilch. The castijng for that one went on the junk pile along with the one from the first supplier. I eventually found a low mileage OEM casting(with the nipple) and used it in conjunction with the newer shoe design from the second supplier. If I hadn’t been paying attention to J-L I’d have installed the piece of junk that is currently laying in the rejects pile. Has there ever been one word about this from the suppliers? Nope.
Unfortunately, I learned of the chain guide bracket problem after the engine was buttoned up. Ever a word from the suppliers? Nope. When I buy a critical internal engine part my expectation is that it’s up to original quality. If the suppliers aren’t demanding and receiving that from their component manufacturers, they ought not be selling the parts. Finally, these parts are not failing at high mileage
It is necessary that consumers stand up and be counted or nothing will be done !
Unfortunately a culture of outright denial or lying is not unusual, (right from the very top of our political, religious and financial organsisations in fact), it probably always has been
Consumer law applies here, the item must be fit for purpose and have a reasonable lifespan,
people do win, I have got money back, but it takes time & energy, more than it is worth
bought an engine & trans mount kit for another vehicle, not the most fun thing to replace, turns out the rubber was so soft, the trans was banging up and down on the xmember.
great, put old mounts back, chuck rubbish in bin, order good quality expensive ones, just cop it sweet…I never throw away an old part until the new one is proven to fit
That would have been my post, Eric, August 2017. What I haven’t seen is anybody else reporting the same problem and when I spoke with Tony Lee about it he reported SNG had sold 1200 of them without complaint - that’s a small rate of failure that should temper your concerns somewhat. Another thing is the damper failure didn’t result in any engine damage, even after driving with it rattling around inside for a couple hundred miles, because the broken piece was too large to fall into the timing gear. Tony reported having a couple of XK engines from military vehicles in their shop that had both upper chain dampers broken off - ostensibly OEM - yet were still running. Which is to say, the probability of failure of one of the guides in your engine is already exceedingly small and even then the probability of a resultant engine failure is low. I’m still driving the car with the missing damper, though I will be addressing it sometime this spring.
Nick, We don’t know what the long term failure rate is, nor do we know the probability of failure. We don’t know the mileage on installed parts or the number of parts that are still sitting car owner’s shelves. We don’t know if cracks are developing on installed parts because… nobody is looking. Why? One more time…not a peep from the supplier suggesting there could be an issue… That’s irresponsible and unacceptable. As for the extent of engine damage, we don’t know what could have happened. You might have got lucky. Further, if the metal either side of that crack was working as it grew, there were almost certainly metal bits dropping into the crank case. Yes, we hope the filter picked them up.
Surely you’re not suggesting that I just leave the part in the engine and wait to see if it fails. Would that also mean I just stay mum if I ever sell the car to an unsuspecting buyer. After all that’s what these suppliers do…
I understand that the forum is not to be used to “bash” vendors. I also believe the forum can be a place to learn about part problems so we can be aware and cautious. These two processes seem to be at odds.
But to the concern at hand. I clearly understand Eric’s concern about a failure that could take out the engine. He seems to be putting a higher vendor responsibility on this type of part quality than on a less critical part, so again I do not see his concern as totally unreasonable. But as I state previously, I am not sure most ANY part supplier would provide that kind of warranty. Although I have read a little about this tensioner issue, I do not know the details. Could, or has the forum already supplied details on this? Nick has provided a number of units sold by one of many vendors. Can we find what else has been sold, by brand? Do we or can we poll how many failures there have been, and of what type of failure has occurred? Can we determine how many of these failures were from DIY’ers versus how many have failed by “commercial” engine rebuilders. I believe there are some rebuilders who are on the forum. Do they have any failures to report? And if so, which supplier. I certainly will not deny any failures, and I will not blame any individual for a failure. But, without out clear numbers, I wonder if we can do anything other than fret. This is not to open a can of worms, certainly not on this thread, but this reminds me of similar horror stories I hear about other issues I have read about. Such as- Prestone 5 year anti freeze is junk and runs out of the gaskets. DOT 5 is junk and runs out the wheel cylinders. New high tech oils, less ZDDP is junk and ruins all classic engines. Maybe they do, maybe not, but mostly horror stories, not facts.
Tom
I suspect it is as it’s used in Austin Healy’s, MGA, MGC, Jag XK and E…
I’ve searched the MG forums about these failing. The “Rolon” brand seems to be suspect, some report putting that one in several of their own cars as well as customer’s cars without incident. Perhaps you should have a look at a few other suppliers’ offerings to see if Moss has a different mfgr.
Someone posed in an MG forum about a year ago about looking for a French manufacturers unit as it had a rep for being ‘better’ that the rest. Also, one fella mentioned to order from XKs as the one’s for Jags might be of better quality!!!
For comparison, the repop ones for the MG TC, TD and TF cost $74.99.
Would you pay that much just on the hope that it was better made, or would you go for the $9.99 one at XKs?
Imagine if I got paid to start these posts😀
My intent was to vent at 2am when I was trying to fit an inferior part
I don’t know how communism, herpes and Russian collusion got in the mix…
But
It’s funny pete c and I are on the same wave
Length
Will at sng gets it!
Dave Welsh for nos gets it!
My list has become very short as the two above would tell you buy or not buy on certain parts!
Even if they have them!
Their help along with others help me make the drescission on the t5 …
Take one case at a time
I’m not a fan of rating services because it gets ugly
Real ugly…
And rude as many hide behind a keyboard
So enjoy my friends!
I hope everyone’s std"s clear up
The used to have mercurochrome for that:grinning:
Gtjoey1314 with a smile
The base of the rubber shoe on the version that failed (three that I can recall) has the same rectangular dimensions as the metal flange behind it. So the shear loads are 100% reliant on the bond. On the improved part that I purchased from XKS (also a Rolon if I remember correcty) , the rubber shoe wraps around the leading edge of that rectangular metal flange…as it did on the original French supplied Renald part. The total bonding surface is thus increased, and the shear loads between the rubber and the underlying metal are mitigated by that lip gripping the leading edge. I purchased the more expensive version when I learned of the failures and started digging into the archives for descriptive information. If anyone wants an unused budget version for the cost of shipping I believe I can find the one I threw on the junk pile. By the way, I noticed a $54 version on the Moss ad, but can’t tell from the photos if it’s the same as the one I installed. I’m amazed anyone is still listing the one with the failure history…no, on second thought, I’m not all that surprised…
I wonder if the reliability of the part could be improved by wrapping that outer edge of the shoe with something, not sure what. A thin flange of steel could probably be tacked onto the edge of the metal, then either glue between the flange and the rubber, or maybe drill a couple small holes and screw through into the rubber or insert pins to act as a fail safe?
What would be handy, now that the forum is picture friendly, is some kind soul/s put up pictures of all known chain tensioners (as a separate thread), with descriptive texts and arrows etc
That would be a useful way to help prevent consumers fitting the inferior item (even if they inadvertantly purchase one)
Been following this thread, and now I’m concerned. Bought a set of the chain pads a couple of years ago, have not installed them yet. Just looked at them, they are bonded with no wrap around, manufacturer is not identified, country of manufacturer is India. They were not expensive, highest priced one was $18. Won’t mention the supplier, but think I need to look elsewhere. What do you all recommend?
If you are talking about the chain guides, then I don’t think any of them have the pad “wrapped around”. Most of the discussion is concerning the hydraulic chain tensioner, not the guides, where the “better” part has the rubber wrapped around the steel shoe… The problem that Nick referred with the guides was with the top chain guides, that had a right-angle bend in the steel plate that fractures. A search in the archives should find it, together with photos of the offending parts, or see Nick’s link to it in post #45 above.
