While installing a RH front upper wishbone rebuild kit on our '67 SI OTS, I discover excessive (1/4") play between the wishbone, the new ball and new socket. I cannot imagine that the wishbone is so severely worn that it would allow that amount of play but from what I derive from observation and the Bentley manual, I see no other explanation.
While I don’t relish the idea of replacing the upper wishbone, if I must, I must. Here’s a photo attempt at the wear at the wishbone. Does that provide enough clarity to have anyone suggest the cause of the play other than wear?
There is now a fix for life option which involves a new wishbone and a plastic shrouded ball joint, similar to many modern jaguars. CMC and others sell it. I went the route of ordering just the joint and having the wishbones machined to fit, saving about £50 per side. Its in the forum somewhere.
Thanks, Pat. Yes, SNG Barratt has the modernized wishbone for $300. When you say you had “…the wishbones machined to fit”, are you saying you had the inner part of the old wishbone where the ball drop through built up (machined) so that the play between it and the ball was reduced?
Unfortunately not. The play is not between the socket and the ball (the top) but rather the ball and the seat or lower inside of the wishbone through which the threaded ball passes. I am guessing it is because that aluminum area in which the ball sits is significantly worn. If it is not the cause of the play, I do not want to remove the wishbone but I have nothing to which to compare it.
Hi
The wishbone doesn’t have any aluminium in it. I think the wear you are seeing is as a result of the wishbone running dry and wearing excessively, this being the case new wishbones sound like the solution, although if you wished to keep all original I suppose you could get them built up and remachined.
If going the plastic socket route the hole needs machining to take the larger plastic covered socket.
I’m not following here. When assembled, the ball is trapped between the contour machined into the arm on the bottom, and the hemispherical insert on the top. If it’s moving up and down 1/4" then it’s bouncing between those two parts. If you push the insert all the way down as far as it can go, does the ball still move? I believe older joints had to be shimmed to achieve the correct fit. The newer ones have a spring that fits between the insert and the cover so it’s self adjusting.
Your ball race in the control arm could certainly be worn, many are. But 1/4" would be be pretty extreme. The upper insert takes most of the force I think, and there isn’t even 1/4" of meat on that lower surface to begin with. There’s a good chance that they were assembled wrong or you have a defective kit.
It would be interesting to have an explanation of how you determine that wear in the control arm is excessive. The upper ball joint locates the upright. It carries none of the weight of the car, which is the lower ball joint’s job. The movement of the ball is restricted by the movement of the upper control arm - that is the pin only moves back and forth at right angles to the center line of the car, as the control arm goes up and down. I suspect then that the wear on the ball and bottom of the control arm would also be on each side of ball and socket running again at 90 degrees to the centerline? There is limited fore and aft movement of the pin as the slot cut in the bottom of the arm restricts it, but at some stage the wear on the pin and socket would mean that the pin could not be moved fore and aft - but does that matter, as long as it moves laterally as required by the control arm, and is not loose? You see a similar problem in the tie rod and socket/housing at each end of the steering rack. When you install a new tie rod with a worn socket/housing the tie rod won’t move equally easily in all directions because the socket/ housing for the ball pin is worn out of round. It matters here, as opposed to the control arm, because the socket/housing will be inadvertently rotated on installation so it’s wear no longer aligns with the direction you want the tie rod to move.
I’m interested in this because I have a very high mileage E Type that has had regular greasing and regular changes of the ball joint, but I wonder… Replacement doesn’t require any more than a small number of shims so maybe it’s ok?
THe CMC ball joint replacement is here. Looks like the machining necessary to use it would be simpler than trying to repair the worn socket. That repair involves building up the socket with weld, then cutting it to shape with a ball cutter.
Any idea what has to be done to allow fitment of that nylon joint? Their ad page doesn’t describe the steps required. Does the existing race in the arm have to be cut away so the nylon one can be fit?
Well Bert, if you were in Australia I could help you with a change over wishbone. The ball pin running on metal is not a good design, I weld them up and re machine the socket and also give it a bronze surface for better wear.
The ball must be shimmed to a firm feel without the spring fitted, the spring is there to prevent the ball hammering the seat, nothing more.
With the ball and new socket in place, but with no spring or shims, can you get the top cover secured in place with the circlip? If so, is it still loose then?
Erica
The wishbone end is heated until machinable, then using a ball cutter (43mm?) cut the hole, push fit in the plastic/nylon coated replacement then using shims which allow for machining tolerances build up in the normal fashion.
I replaced my wishbones several years ago when I found I couldn’t relieve the play by normal shims. I ended up putting several fat washers under the circlip just to pass the MOT. Clearly the hardening had failed and wear was accelerating as a result. When I pulled the joints apart I found considerable pitting caused by rust. The joint had been allowed to dry out and as the car had been stored for many years, rust took hold.
1/4" of play? I can understand that as I’m sure I had at least 6mm of washers and shims at the end.
Working on the suspension for a couple of hours yesterday revealed that I had allowed the socket to stop where it wanted to rather than pressing it down to contact the top of the ball. Now both the top and bottom wishbones have newly installed kits. The E is not back on the ground so it has yet to be ‘tested’.
Thank to each of you for your thoughtful support. What a relief to not be required to replace the wishbones.
Erica’s thought provoking guidance yesterday made me think twice about the conclusions I had drawn about the cause of excessive ‘play’. Thanks especially to her (assuming Erica is a woman). Now to solve the steering movement issue…
sozfingers
(Keith. P. series two roadster,,,UK)
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Just as an aside, a long time ago during a period when I was too busy to work on my E, I had a garage remove my series two upper {collapsible} column and check why I had side play…for a while after I got it back, I found myself juggling the wheel in the straight ahead position, and some up and down movement also. On examining the inner shaft, I found that the splines had not penetrated forward enough, had not gone far enough for the cotter to locate in the groove, only about 3/8 of an inch was in the UJ causing the initial lost motion as the UJ was twisting to the side before the shaft rotated…you must be meticulous if you’re working on your car for the first time…I have made so many errors in the past I wonder why I am still here…
I received the following reply to my enquiry about installing the kits sold by CMC:
Once the existing ball joint is removed, the socket will need to be machined out to our CMC spec. Once that has been done we would shot blast and then send the wishbone away for plating ready for the new ball joint to be fitted. However, it is sometimes easier and cheaper to just get a new wishbone with the ball joint upgrade already fitted. Please visit the link below for more details:
