[v12-engine] 6.0L V12 - the FINAL word on spark plug gaps

Gentlemen:
I’m due for spark plugs replacement and need to confirm the
correct gaps for the 6.0L V12.
Search through the archives suggests that the last of the
V12 engines required 0.035’’ gaps, not 0.025’’ as their 5.3L
counterparts.

However, my JDHT manual specifies NGK BR7EF plug with 0.025’’
gap. Several old threads also talk about 0.025’’ gap and the
possibility that it is plug-dependent, for example:

http://forums.jag-lovers.org/av.php?780381q14

What is the FINAL word on the correct gap for the 6.0L V12?
Also, does anyone know the difference between NGK plugs
models BR7EF and BR7EFS – I’ve got the latter, but the ROM
lists the former.

Thanks much in advance,
Steve–
'95 XJS V12 6.0L, saphire/tan
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In reply to a message from sbobev sent Wed 23 Nov 2011:

A full set of either will be fine, but I would mix them. BR7EF has
a ‘V’ groove in the center electrode (look close) and may or may
not be labled V Power. The br7efs is just the regular plug. I have
used both, and am happy with them, and I gap them at .035’’. I am
currently running the br7ef, and have a new set to install when I
get around to it.

Dave
Atlanta 1994 XJS 6.0L–
Penfold99
Atlanta, GA, United States
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In reply to a message from Penfold99 sent Wed 23 Nov 2011:

…sorry that was supposed to be I would NOT mix them…

Dave–
Penfold99
Atlanta, GA, United States
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In reply to a message from Penfold99 sent Wed 23 Nov 2011:

I thought the .035 gap was Pre-HE, and .025 was for the
later cars.–
The original message included these comments:

used both, and am happy with them, and I gap them at .035’'. I am


1990 XJ-S V12 5.3 Coupe
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In reply to a message from Penfold99 sent Wed 23 Nov 2011:

Dave:
Thanks, so you’ve gone against what the manual for the 6.0L
says, and you believe the 0.035’’ gap is the correct setting –
no problems with cold starts, etc.?
How often do you replace/re-gap the plugs?
Steve–
The original message included these comments:

A full set of either will be fine, but I would mix them. BR7EF has
a ‘V’ groove in the center electrode (look close) and may or may
not be labled V Power. The br7efs is just the regular plug. I have
used both, and am happy with them, and I gap them at .035’'. I am
currently running the br7ef, and have a new set to install when I
get around to it.
Dave


'95 XJS V12 6.0L, saphire/tan
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In reply to a message from sbobev sent Wed 23 Nov 2011:

With a separate modern high power coil for each bank, there is
enough juice to spark a .5’’ gap…so there is no problem
with .035’’. I usually change them every year or so. I only use the
car for pleasure, so I don’t know ho many miles that is…
The specification however is .025’’, I think it is .035’’ for the 4L
engine. It may be an error, but NGK’s web site says .035’’.
I just think the ignition system is fully capable of a slightly
wider gap without too much strain to the system. My thinking is it
may provide a slightly better burn, totally debatable though. The
spec is there to provide good running under all conditions, and
different qualities of fuel, etc. I drive under roughly the same
conditions, and the same type, and I hope qualiy of fuel most of
the time. I don’t drive in any weather extremes, etc., and
typically use it in mild climate conditions.

Dave–
Penfold99
Atlanta, GA, United States
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Search through the archives suggests that the last of the
V12 engines required 0.035’’ gaps, not 0.025’’ as their 5.3L
counterparts.

You might be able to use 0.035" on the cars with Nippondenso
distributorless ignition. However, anything with Marelli ignition
needs to be gapped at 0.025" – not because Marelli doesn’t have the
power, it does, but rather because a larger gap strains the
dielectrics too much and causes failures of the cap and rotor.

Now, an interesting question: I’ve been recommending for some time
that anyone with a Marelli ignition system should heave their
distributor into the nearest dumpster and install a used Lucas
distributor – with the centrifugal advance mechanism functioning –
and connect the two Marelli coils to the single center post in the
Lucas cap using an MSD Automatic Coil Selector. The question: If
you do that, should you go ahead and regap the plugs to 0.035"?
Might just work! Offhand, I can’t think of any good reason not to.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 23 Nov 2011 at 5:50, sbobev wrote:

1 Like

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Wed 23 Nov 2011:

I would say a larger plug gap than the spec will retard the
timiming !. If the voltage takes a fraction longer to build up
before it jumps the gap the timing must be a fraction later ?

What do others think of this ?–
The original message included these comments:

V12 engines required 0.035’’ gaps, not 0.025’’ as their 5.3L


95 XJR6, 94 XJS 6.0 coupe, 04 XK8 ,99 Ka
Croydon , SURREY, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Wed 23 Nov 2011:

I would say a larger plug gap than the spec will retard the
timiming !. If the voltage takes a fraction longer to build up
before it jumps the gap the timing must be a fraction later ?

What do others think of this ?

Maybe a few microseconds - not significant.

Owen Holmwood
1978 XJ-S
Sydney

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 26/11/11 08:05, 540itouring wrote:

In reply to a message from 540itouring sent Fri 25 Nov 2011:

‘‘What do others think of this?’’

Not much, it’s nonsense for a normal IC engine.

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

timiming !. If the voltage takes a fraction longer to build up
before it jumps the gap the timing must be a fraction later ?
What do others think of this ?


1E75339 66 D, 1E33100 66 FHC, 1R7977 69 OTS, 65 Mk2 3.8 MOD
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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I would say a larger plug gap than the spec will retard the
timiming !. If the voltage takes a fraction longer to build up
before it jumps the gap the timing must be a fraction later ?

If there’s any delay at all, it would correspond to about 0.00000001
degree. Electricity is FAST.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 25 Nov 2011 at 13:05, 540itouring wrote:

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Fri 25 Nov 2011:

Not quite… The delay is in the time it takes to build a
strong enough field acrosss the plug electrodes, i.e.
dependent on the time for the breakdown of the magnetic
field in the coil and the resultant buildup of voltage in
the secondary high voltage part. You are talking much longer
times here, determined by the reluctance of the coil. You
are talking milliseconds and so at higher rpm many degrees.
That is why the fixed timing crank fired Marelli cars must
be gapped as per spec. The iridium plugs could be given
larger gaps balancing their lower voltage requirements for
starting the arcing but I haven’t had the patience to tune
it in as the plug changes on a HE is a pain.–
The original message included these comments:

If there’s any delay at all, it would correspond to about 0.00000001
degree. Electricity is FAST.


PEXJC
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I agree. Haven’t done the calcs, but there is a finite rise time in coil
suggesting it should take longer from triggering the coil to spark if the
gaps are larger. Might be only tiny.

But there was interesting data publish recently from modern engine
manufacturers (might have been BMW) showing the variation in spark timing
from cylinder to cylinder and cycle to cycle. Basically spark “scatter”.
Point was, they were showing that efforts to improve spark scatter improved
efficiency and therefore fuel economy / power. My hazy recollection was that
it was significant (2-3%??)

If all plugs were gapped the same, it wouldn’t be a problem. But if the
plugs were all over the place, that would have to add to the unique
“personality” of the various cylinders.-----Original Message-----

Not quite… The delay is in the time it takes to build a
strong enough field acrosss the plug electrodes, i.e.
dependent on the time for the breakdown of the magnetic
field in the coil and the resultant buildup of voltage in
the secondary high voltage part. You are talking much longer
times here, determined by the reluctance of the coil. You
are talking milliseconds and so at higher rpm many degrees.

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At 13:12 2011-12-07, Mark Eaton was heard to say:

If all plugs were gapped the same, it wouldn’t be a problem. But if the
plugs were all over the place, that would have to add to the unique
“personality” of the various cylinders.

Yea, one cylinder having a hotter flame, another being more prone to
misfire, and everybody firing at a fraction of a degree different in
effective timing.

Think of a rowing team having a couple of guys a fraction off in their stroke.

My Sun “Sleuth One” engine analyzer (basically, an overgrown
purpose-made oscillioscope) has a nifty spark overlay mode - you
clamp the signal pickup to the HT coil lead and the trigger to plug
1, and all the sparks overlay (or if you adjust the tracking, are
spread out vertically), and you can see the rise, decay, duration,
etc - higher spark voltages indicate larger gaps (they’re also
generally paired with much shorter durations).

A nice feature of the Sleuth One is that it actually has a setting
for 12 cylinders.

— '88 Jaguar XJ-SC 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Black Cat’
Sean Straw '85 Jaguar XJ-S 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Bad Kitty’
Sonoma County, California '91 Jaguar XJ40 4.0L (LHD) ‘Trevor’
http://jaguar.professional.org/ '69 Buick GranSport 455 V8

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I agree. Haven’t done the calcs, but there is a finite rise time in
coil suggesting it should take longer from triggering the coil to
spark if the gaps are larger. Might be only tiny.

Please do the calcs. I don’t believe it makes any difference at all,
but I’m no electronics expert. We’re not talking about the charge
time of the coil, which is the reason we have problems building
enough charge in a V12 turning at 6000 rpm. We’re talking about the
coil being fully charged and suddenly breaking the current flow to
the primary winding so that the magnetic field collapses, generating
a spike in the secondary winding. I think this spike is
instantaneous; in fact, I think the voltage is at max to begin with
and then drops off with time. But I’m open to an explanation of why
there might be a delay in this voltage buildup.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 8 Dec 2011 at 10:12, Mark Eaton wrote:

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Wed 7 Dec 2011:

For the interested:

There’s a nice collection of ignition waveforms on:
http://www.picoauto.com/waveforms/Ignition

The rise time to peak secondary voltage is instantaneous
(well, limited by the speed of light). Ionizing the mixture
takes longer (~1us). After the ionization channel is ‘open’
the voltage is sustained for a much longer period (~1ms).

I think ionization is the predominate factor to getting a
usable spark. Spark plug gap, compression ratio and richness
of the mixture are the most infuencial factor on ionization.

There will never be a final word on spark plugs and their
gaps :wink:

Regards, Edward–
EdsXJS
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Actually its an interesting question and it takes you into one of those
dangerous areas (that this forum is really good at!!! :wink: where energy and
physics and things get a little murky.

In a perfect world with a perfect transformer and a perfect primary switch
(and perfect wires) you’d have the instantenous result that people expect.
But I’d expect there to be a finite time required for the magnetic field to
collapse due to the hysteresis of the core (if not then there would be no
such thing as frequency limits for magnetic material and the core wouldn’t
get hot due to the losses) and the simple fact of the inductance of the
secondary (due to masses of windings around the core). Add to that leakage
capacitance and the primary winding current disconnect is not instant. The
controlling transistor/FET has a finite toff (turn off) time, controlled by
the junction capacitance and drive circuits. Points are the same, except you
get arcing while they try to break. You’d be struggling to get it better
than 50us for the “points” break I would think. So I’d be surprised if the
rise time of the HT was better than 100us (0.1ms).

In fact, if the rise time is too fast you will also introduce a nasty
radiated emissions problem. So my guess is they would specifically design
some limit in it. (apparently a forward facing spark plug in a metal bowl is
a great radar jammer)

(OK I just checked online and it looks like there is concensus for inductive
ignition rise times to be around 100us … I’ll take a bow. I assume CDI is
somewhat faster, allbeit with a correspondingly shorter spark)

At 6000 rpm, an engine is doing 100 revs per second. That is 10ms per
revolution. Therefore that equates to 1 deg crank rotation every 27us. So a
100us rise time in your coil is equal to about 4 degrees of crank rotation
at 6000 rpm. At idle, it is only 0.4 degrees.

This is all off the cuff thinking out loud, so I stand to be corrected.

Now in terms of the discussion, so long as all the plug gaps were the same,
they’d all hit their spark over voltage at roughly the same time, (a couple
of degrees after the “points” open) and their wouldn’t be a problem. But if
one plug was 0.050" and one was 0.025" then you’d have to think that the
larger gapped plug could be delayed a couple of degrees at high rpm. It will
also make a shorter spark.

Looking on a scope at the general ignition cycle, you’d be on a longish time
scale, so 0.1ms might not look like much. Also, your scope probes will add
to the problem, because they have rise time issues too.

Then you have mixture and swirl issues to worry about.

Rgds
Mark-----Original Message-----
We’re talking about the
coil being fully charged and suddenly breaking the current flow to
the primary winding so that the magnetic field collapses, generating
a spike in the secondary winding. I think this spike is
instantaneous; in fact, I think the voltage is at max to begin with
and then drops off with time.

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In reply to a message from EdsXJS sent Sat 10 Dec 2011:

Drat! Aclear case of ‘‘please engage brain before keyboard’’.
The very cause of the high voltage/high current at the start
of the ignition is the collapse of the magnetic field over
an extremely short time giving a high output over a short
time from the buildup of small enery over a relatively long
time.

Which of course takes me back to square one regarding the
question of why iridium plugs works a treat in the flathead
but not at all in the HE.–
The original message included these comments:

The rise time to peak secondary voltage is instantaneous
(well, limited by the speed of light). Ionizing the mixture
takes longer (~1us). After the ionization channel is ‘open’


PEXJC
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sorry to resurect such an old thread, but the title seems the best in relation to the subject, without definite answer

I’m in the same situation, ie 6.0 V12 with Marelli ignition, and thinking of chnaging the spark plugs, and wonder which type of plugs if finaly the best between BR7EF and BR7EFS (gap being 0.25 anyway)

cost is very similar, and the work to swap them significant, so I’d rather get the best at first

any real world results to share ?
thanks in advance

edit : NGK seems to suggest BR6EF from their part finder

BR6EF is recommended for the XJ12, BR7EF is recommended for the XJS.
I’ve tried both and could not tell the difference. Work as advertised.

Swapping plugs on the 6.0L is not as difficult as it is on the 5.3L, still a chore but not too bad and an opportunity to inspect the “vee”