[v12-engine] Italian Tune up variation

V12-Engine
1

It has been well established that an Italian Tune up will force clean carbon build up, and I get that.

Years ago I remember hearing say that they were going to take the cars out on the highway for a long trip, so that it would give the car a chance to blown out. Down shifting, and having the tach redline for some extended period was not in the cards, though. It was simply an extended drive at speed.

Was there any truth to what they were saying?

Simply put, does extended highway driving accomplish the same effect as an Italian Tune up?

For as far back as I can remember, all of the cars that I’ve ever owned (regardless of make) always seemed to balk when they were subjected to, too much city driving. Once road bound for a time they would always seem to return to a better running state, until again subjected to another extended period of stop & go.

A.J.

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2

Earl,

Your Acapulco run is similar in nature to the sort of experience that I’ve tried to convey. I find that after keeping your foot down for hours on end, the pedal generally seems to float back up after awhile. This type of driving seems to indicate that after doing so, any carbon deposits that may have been present, are no longer there.

I’m hoping that others will be able to confirm my suspicions. It’s not that I’m opposed to doing Italian Tune ups, but it does tend to stress the transmission a little bit.

A.J.On Jun 27, 2011, at 8:31 PM, Earl Kiker wrote:

A. J.

I can only give you my experience. In the fall of 1995 I realized a life-long ambition, ownership of a Jaguar. I was absolutely thrilled to own a 1988 XJS. I was never so disappointed. I soon discovered the car had rarely left the city limits of San Antonio. It had no power and ran like crap. Later that fall I went with friends (mechanic included) on a run to Acapulco, Mexico. Our cruising speed on the way down there rarely fell below 100 MPH. The trip was about 4000 miles round trip.

When I returned to San Antonio with the car, the biggest problem I had was keeping it UNDER 100 MPH. The trip totally transformed the car! It ran like a dream and had phenomenal power.

KEEP IT ON THE ROAD BRO!!

Earl Kiker
89 XJS Conv/Lucas
97 VDP

— On Mon, 6/27/11, A.J. Simpson <@A.J_Simpson1> wrote:

From: A.J. Simpson <@A.J_Simpson1>
Subject: [v12-engine] Italian Tune up variation
To: V12-engine@jag-lovers.org
Date: Monday, June 27, 2011, 12:22 PM
It has been well established that an
Italian Tune up will force clean carbon build up, and I get
that.

Years ago I remember hearing say that they were going to
take the cars out on the highway for a long trip, so that it
would give the car a chance to blown out. Down shifting, and
having the tach redline for some extended period was not in
the cards, though. It was simply an extended drive at
speed.

Was there any truth to what they were saying?

Simply put, does extended highway driving accomplish the
same effect as an Italian Tune up?

For as far back as I can remember, all of the cars that
I’ve ever owned (regardless of make) always seemed to balk
when they were subjected to, too much city driving. Once
road bound for a time they would always seem to return to a
better running state, until again subjected to another
extended period of stop & go.

A.J.

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and
resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On
Line Books and more !

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3

In reply to a message from A.J. Simpson sent Mon 27 Jun 2011:

If an Italian tune up works, great care has to be taken to
change the oil quickly. Along with carbon will come sludge
etc…–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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4

Noted!

I don’t recall that tid bit of news being mentioned on this forum before.

A.J.On Jun 27, 2011, at 11:42 PM, MGuar wrote:

In reply to a message from A.J. Simpson sent Mon 27 Jun 2011:

great care has to be taken to
change the oil quickly. Along with carbon will come sludge
etc…

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5

In reply to a message from MGuar sent Mon 27 Jun 2011:

Well since Jaguar officially recommened the IT and didn’t say
change the oil afterwards, we can disregard that as a counsel of
perfection.

The long highway use will prevent soft carbon accumulation. If
everybody drove the V12 under decent loads like that, the IT would
never have become an issue as it wouldn’t be needed. If people even
give it the beans in lower gears once or twice on each run when
fully wrmed up then likewise the IT becomes less of an issue. It’s
simply that so many people drive these engines so lightly that in
real-world situations they DO run on light laod all or most of the
time so you get the build-up in the HE chamber.

Once you have build up, the IT or al ong hard drive will clear it,
but sometimes you just don’t have time or scope to do a long hard
drive so Jag recommended the IT for those situations. Two minutes
verus two hours…

Since the carbon blows/burns out during these high-rev, high-load
passes, I bet there is little risk of it accumulating in the engine
oil unless you’ve got bad blow-by. The whole point of it is to burn
it out the exhaust, which is exactly what happens as you can easily
see. That’s where the gunge goes, not into the oil. There is so
much turbulence in a 4-5000 rpm chamber that you’re not going to
get sludging happeneing IMHO.

Which is not to say that it wouldn’t be a good idea to do the IT
before an oil change - why not? But don’t think you have to do an
oil change if you do an IT every 500 miles… Frenchy may be
getting mixed up with the water spray decoke at fast
idle/stationary revving. That’s one where I’d definitely do an oil
change afterwards.

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

If an Italian tune up works, great care has to be taken to
change the oil quickly. Along with carbon will come sludge
etc…

–
1E33100 67FHC, 1R7977 69OTS, 1E75339 Zealia/Lynx D-type
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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6

In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Tue 28 Jun 2011:

Pete;
First;
One of the things that carbon build up can cause problems
with is the rings, causing them to stick. That means there
is not a good seal between the piston and the combustion
chamber…
I think you can see the potential now?
Carbon build up doesn’t happen in a few months…(I’d wager
the vast majority of it occurs upon start up) it’s a long
on-going development. Remember some of our Jaguars are 2nd
third or even 12th car. Almost to no one is a V12 Jaguar a
daily driver…
The car can sit unused in a garage over the winter or
maybe even longer before use…
While most people will change the oil every 3000 miles
most will not do it every 3 months. It may be 9 months
between oil changes. some even longer…
That is why the need for an oil change following a Italian
tune up… Besides that is absolutely the best time… with
the engine all warm and toasty oil flows freely and carries
more particulates out with it…
OK If you do frequent Italian tune ups you don’t need to
change the oil after every one… However you absolutely
should if the car has been sitting all winter and you note
the beginning of the symptoms indicating the need for the
Italian tune up.–
The original message included these comments:

Well since Jaguar officially recommened the IT and didn’t say
change the oil afterwards, we can disregard that as a counsel of
perfection.

–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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7

In reply to a message from A.J. Simpson sent Mon 27 Jun 2011:

A.J.
One of the problems with carbon build up is stuck piston
rings. That means there is no longer a good seal between the
piston and combustion chamber… An Italian tune up
dramatically increases cylinder pressure at the same time a
whole lot of carbon (etc.) is flying around…
I suppose if you are absolutely certain that your rings are
working correctly and your oil has recently been changed I
agree there is no need for an oil change afterwards.
However to be on the safe side perhaps you need to do a
leak down test to confirm. A leak down test unlike a
compression test will tell you where the problem is… If you
hear the air escaping out the intake you understand you have
a leaking intake valve. If you hear the air leaking out the
exhaust it’s a bad exhaust valve but if you hear the air
escape at the breather, (I’m lazy I use the oil filler cap)
You have a ring problem.
The good part of that is it will also tell you how bad it is!!–
The original message included these comments:

I don’t recall that tid bit of news being mentioned on this forum before.

–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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8

I think that I may have been a little bit misunderstood. I am not trying to solve any internal problems at this time.

My questions were based on wonderings about the effects of an IT vs long haul driving.

Based on cumulative responses, it is now my understanding that one can achieve IT results by simply putting the car on the road with a little spirited driving, and a few hundred miles under your belt.

At times when I have done the IT, I try to maintain a watchful eye on my rear view mirror, because I’m looking for bursts of black smoke (soot) from the exhaust. There have been many times that I’ve seen no evidence of exhaust soot, and ended up driving on thinking about how much fuel I’ve just waisted. LOL

These newer diesels like I have in my F350 have a regeneration process built in. When that kicks in, it starts dumping a ton of diesel to clean the cats. The problem with that system is, it’s electronically controlled, and on a timer. I’ve timed it, and I guess depending upon what’s happening, that thing will dump fuel for at least 10 minutes, and once in a while I’ve seen it run for 20 minutes. Talk about a hit in the tank! If unlucky enough to get caught in a regen cycle while running an errand (lets say to the supermarket), the system will restart the process every time the engine is restarted, because the cycle was interrupted. I find that when running around town without having completed a cycle, the truck really starts to run like $(!@. Taking off from a light with billowing grey/black coming from the exhaust is embarrassing, and not my idea of a good time.

A.J.On Jun 28, 2011, at 9:49 AM, MGuar wrote:

In reply to a message from A.J. Simpson sent Mon 27 Jun 2011:

I suppose if you are absolutely certain that your rings are
working correctly and your oil has recently been changed I
agree there is no need for an oil change afterwards.
However to be on the safe side perhaps you need to do a
leak down test to confirm. A leak down test unlike a
compression test will tell you where the problem is… If you
hear the air escaping out the intake you understand you have
a leaking intake valve. If you hear the air leaking out the
exhaust it’s a bad exhaust valve but if you hear the air
escape at the breather, (I’m lazy I use the oil filler cap)
You have a ring problem.
The good part of that is it will also tell you how bad it is!!

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9

In reply to a message from A.J. Simpson sent Tue 28 Jun 2011:

I wouldn’t say a few hundred miles necessarily, depending on how
bad it was to begin with, but yes, an hour or so of hard running
will clear any sound engine that has sooted up a bit.

And of course it is compression pressure acting via the top
clearance and onto the back of the compression rings that seals
them against the bore far more than any spring pressure. So doing
an IT even with a bit of carbon on the rings will work fine unless
they are scrap to start with. If you’re getting so much crap past
the rings that your oil sludges up from an IT, you have engine
problems that no amount of ITs will solve.

Most of us have noticed how cars or motorcycles often seem to run
better at the end of a long run, even down to the suspension often
feeling better. It’s as if they are keen to get home and the last
hours or miles fly by. This is often genuine and probably reflects
the fact the engine is cleaner and fully warmed through, the
dampers and tyres are up to temp and even the seat foam is up to
temp and the whole vehicle ‘comes together’ in a way it just can’t
demonstrate during shorter trips.

Either that or the car/bike really IS eager to get home :slight_smile:

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

Based on cumulative responses, it is now my understanding that one can achieve IT results by simply putting the car on the road with a little spirited driving, and a few hundred miles under your belt.

–
1E33100 67FHC, 1R7977 69OTS, 1E75339 Zealia/Lynx D-type
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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10

In reply to a message from A.J. Simpson sent Tue 28 Jun 2011:

Having been a lifelong racer I realize the positive benefits
of doing an Italian tune up and the fact that it does no
harm to the engine…
That is, once completely warmed up, Hard full throttle
bursts of power to redline. Then a hard lift of the
throttle. to return to a safe speed. The effect is the same
in 1’st gear 2nd, high gear not as much due to the slower
build up of cylinder pressure…
To those who baby their cars and cringe at the high forced
revs you need to understand that any sound engine is
operating well inside it’s design parameters going right up
to redline.
In fact the redline is set as low as it is to ensure that
even abuse will not cause damage…
My favorite example is a friend who raced a showroom stock
car in SCCA, drove it to and from the race track and during
the week used it as his daily driver. inside a few years it
had well over 100,000 trouble free miles. When it finally
became too old to Race in showroom stock he entered it in IT
(improved touring) where even unmodified it did well.
Eventually his son grew old enough to get his drivers
license and his father gave him the car… His son had the
usual amount of scrapes and accidents as part of the
learning process. However when he turned 18 the car again
was used as a drivers school car to get his SCCA license.
All through college his son would use the car daily and
bring the car to the race track for SCCA events.
Post Graduation his son got involved in drugs and sadly
neglected the car. When it finally broke down due to neglect
it was parked behind the barn until the kid kicked the drug
habit. By that time the only job he could find was
delivering Pizza’s which the repaired car did until the
dreaded Tin worm ate enough holes in the body to make
driving it unsafe.
Parked with over 300,000 miles and only normal maintenance
performed, The engine and all the running gear still works
well.
Beyond that my race motors which are always going at least
500 rpm over redline have never given me any problem… In
fact one engine now has 22 events on it including a couple
of week long Bahama speed weeks where the car is raced at
least once a day, hard… On a typical weekend there are at
least 4 track periods and sometimes end up with an enduro.
Those engine all have stock rods, crankshaft timing gear
etc… Really only porting the heads, replacing stock pistons
with 13-1 compression pistons and putting proper camshafts
in tend to be the only deviation from stock.–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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11

Hi Peter
I’m looking for the wording of exactly what Jaguar recommended in the way of the Italian tune up - i see that you refer to some recommended procedure

do you have the jaguar reference?

12

No. The ITU requires full throttle to somewhere close to redline.

13

Correct, but having done that, extended highway driving will avoid/delay a recurrence. You have to be more brutal to burn off excess deposits that have already accumulated than you do to prevent them arising.

Hand on heart, I suspect several hundred miles of fast driving would do the same thing, but that’s not how most of the V12s around are used. One way to check would be to take a carboned-up car on a long highway trip and the try the ITU. If you don’t get the usual clouds of crap and smoke, or it’s very brief, the engine was in good shape.

As for reference, of the half dozen twelves I’ve had, I think the HE that came with an owners manual that included the advice, was my 84 Series 3 Daimler Double Six. I daresay any early HE owners manual would have it.

14

I agree. Mine runs better after a 50 mile highway run to visit my daughter even if I don’t do the full-on ITU.

On one hand I do lots of city driving. On the other hand, I never baby the engine. So…maybe I have less carbon to get rid of ?

Or…since I run 3.31 gears the engine is always operating at a higher RPM than most and this results in less carbon build up?

I dunno.

Cheers
DD

15

It’s a common finding in all manner of classics IME Doug. From my student days of riding home from university on my hemi-head Triumphs and assorted Brit machinery, they always ran better the second hundred miles than the first. Seemed to run better on cold damp days too (charge density?) but skidding risks in that kind of weather meant you couldn’t take advantage too much.

16

A few hours at highway speeds certainly helps the engine, but I know that a few hours at full throttle and load works wonders for a „city“ car even if only for a few miles at a time. If that can’t be done, the short bursts of acceleration will probably do the most.

I think that long distances are a good way of keeping the engine clean, but it should be revved hard under load at least a few times a year. Does no harm. I would take it slow at first if it is really badly sooted up or was never driven hard. Bore wear and glowing carbon chunks…

My cars so far have always run a lot better after long runs. Both my BMW and Mercedes gained top speed and soon stopped using oil (fresh oil!) when I introduced them to the Autobahn. In both cases oil consumption went up sharply for maybe 1000 miles and then they ceased to use any. And they seem to have more power as well (I‘m not the only one who noticed). Many say cars run a little better on foggy cold days… which makes sense. How much I can’t tell.

17

I can recall when I was a teenager, prior to getting my licence I used to be ferried by one of my elder brothers in his hot Mini. One winter night we were travelling out of Birmingham (UK) on a main road and he had it wound up.
Out in the country it was pitch black with no cars behind us, he said look out the back, a steam of hot carbon sparks was trailing us.

18

Similar squish type concept in the A Series engines IIRC. Not the same as the May ‘Fireball’ head exactly, but similarly designed to promote turbulence and scour dead pockets of mixture away at WOT. Low to mid load turbulence is poor on the pre HE but the high load high revs performance potential is better. Horses for courses and for a road car they had to go for HE.
I remember being amazed to find out the obvious market for XJ12s didn’t get any after the Series 2. CAFE rulings meant they couldn’t get away with selling two V12 models like the rest of the world, so they saved it for the XJS.

Given what we know about climate change it wasn’t such a dumb decision in hind sight.

19

As if that sad topic had anything to do with V12s in America.