[v12-engine] It's the Chain Tensioner!

V12-Engine
81

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Tue 28 Oct 2014:

Kirby:
This may have been true on the older engines. The 6.0L will
take the gasket as one piece, no problem whatsoever.
I’ve done it and posted on here:

One more reason to update the ‘‘Book’’

N.B. There are pink and green ones out there. Don’t know if
one is the real deal and the other is the knock-off.

Steve–
The original message included these comments:

Inlet manifold gaskets NNA3020BA$39.85 times 2
Remember to cut those two gaskets into about 10 pieces before
installing.

–
'95 XJS convertible - V12 6.0L
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82

In reply to a message from sbobev sent Tue 28 Oct 2014:

Thank you for the excellent info, Kirbert! Its impressive
how fast you audited the list. I understand all you say
except not using the timing cover gaskets…are you just
recommending using the 518 with no gaskets?

Steve, I’ve already ordered the seals. They didn’t seem
concerned about the smaller number. I guess I could have
asked if they would be even cheaper in bulk.

I was planning to use the posi-seals on the exhaust valves
too, as that is what I used to do with the high
performance Chevy engines. Is it a no-no on the Jags to
use exhaust seals?–
John. '95 XJS 6.0L convertible. Southlake, TX
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83

This may have been true on the older engines. The 6.0L will
take the gasket as one piece, no problem whatsoever.

Any engine from the H.E. on will. Cut it up anyway.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 28 Oct 2014 at 11:50, sbobev wrote:

84

I understand all you say
except not using the timing cover gaskets…are you just
recommending using the 518 with no gaskets?

That’s correct. The problem is that the gaskets and the half moon
seals will NOT work together. A gasket, gortex or otherwise, must be
securely compressed between two metal surfaces in order to seal.
It’ll seal just fine between cover and tappet block, but where the
gasket is over that soft half moon seal it will NOT seal. Typically
it will leak between the gasket and the cover because the half moon
seal is not pressing it up against the cover. You can goop it up and
hope it’ll seal, but that’ll usually only work for a year or two at
best before it starts leaking.

Because both the cover and the tappet block are clean machined parts,
you can seal them together with Loctite 518 and no gasket. It’ll
seal perfectly, and there’s no chance of the gasket getting old or
compressed because it doesn’t exist. It also saves the extortionate
cost of those gaskets. The half moon seal will seal just fine, since
it fills the opening properly and has 518 all around it just to add
belts to the suspenders.

The other idea is to use the aluminum half moon seals, sealing
underneath them with Loctite 518. They provide a rigid surface, so
when the cover is bolted down securely, the gasket is properly
compressed. It’ll never leak. The aluminum plug has to be machined
quite precisely, though, to ensure that the flat surface is flush and
that the round surface fits closely enough to be sealed with the 518.

I was planning to use the posi-seals on the exhaust valves
too, as that is what I used to do with the high
performance Chevy engines. Is it a no-no on the Jags to
use exhaust seals?

I used them, had no problems I was aware of. The argument is that
these seals work so well that the valve stems will run dry and wear.
Just for that, I lubed all the valve guides with dry graphite during
assembly. I have no idea if that really helped, but it seemed to
work fine.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 28 Oct 2014 at 11:50, CJ95 wrote:

85

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Tue 28 Oct 2014:

Again, great info Steve, Kirbert. I sent an email to Ron
to try to get the aluminum half moons.

After a week off I’m starting to get excited about getting
back into the job.

One more development. The supplier called and says the
water pump bearing is NLA, along with the rebuild kit.
The entire pump is readily available, but seems a bit on
the high side, like $400, considering my pump is still
functioning fine. I will go ahead and replace the seal
and see if repacking the bearing is an option. Does
anyone have a cross reference for a bearing that works?–
John. '95 XJS 6.0L convertible. Southlake, TX
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86

In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Tue 28 Oct 2014:

Peter
I think the British car and motorcycle industries were not
well staffed with Engineers. Don’t forget that most of the
F1 teams designing cars were actually ‘‘black smithing’’
their creations. Along came Colin Chapman who was actually
qualified as a Civil Engineer and he revolutionised the
game. I suspect the real talent was occupied in the
nuclear or aerospace industries.
F1 teams today ARE full of Engineering talent as is the
car industry.
I think jags problem was they lacked sufficient talent to
do everything on the cars and left a lot off stuff to the
blacksmiths.
You missed the fact that I do not use the word competence
but rather silliness.
A blacksmith will do a competent job making a horse shoe
but a silly attempt at a chain tensioner.
I have seen these features all over my XJS.
I also own a Mitsubishi Evolution 6.5. This car started as
an Evolution 1 but every year or two a team of Engineers
made changes to try and keep winning the WRC.
I don’t fiddle with this car. I don’t need to.
But I do with my XJS…some I HAVE to do…and some I
WANT to do…but the lack of ‘’ Evolution’’ gives an
unbiased peek into the way the place was run.
The silliness was tolerated. End of story.–
The original message included these comments:

the opposition. For all we know the place was bursting
with engineers who knew what the best solution was but
simply didn’t have the funds or facilities to do it.

–
Matt Furness 85XJS-HE 5 Speed Manual
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87

One more development. The supplier called and says the
water pump bearing is NLA, along with the rebuild kit.

Well, that’s bad news!

I will go ahead and replace the seal

You should always be able to get the seal because it’s an industrial
standard. Grainger carries them.

and see if repacking the bearing is an option.

This isn’t a bicycle. It’s a permanently sealed bearing cartridge.
It’s exactly the same as zillions of other bearing cartridges for
water pumps for American V8’s except that the ends of the shaft
differ in length and diameter, where the pulley and the impeller are
pressed on. So, if the correct bearing is truly NLA, there are two
other possibilities:

  1. Buy a generic water pump bearing and chuck up the shaft in a
    lathe and machine the ends of the shaft to the correct dimensions.

  2. Buy a generic water pump bearing and bore out the Jaguar pulley
    and impeller to fit it.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 28 Oct 2014 at 21:20, CJ95 wrote:

88

In reply to a message from Wayne Canter sent Tue 28 Oct 2014:

Wayne
The criticism levelled at jaguar is a byproduct of the
stuff they didn’t get right…nothing to do with formal
education.
Your Mechanical Engineer daughter (congratulations to
her!!) will soon realise she can not create her designs
and is part of a team. This will happen sooner than later.
Then she will understand and appreciate the variety of
skills and attributes in the engineering world… And her
outlook will adjust a bit…!!
Regards–
The original message included these comments:

Pete,I think a lot of the criticism directed toward Jaguar
on here is a byproduct of a formal education being taught
today.
Having two daughters one with a MBA in finance and the other
graduating with a mechanical engineering degree in December
of this year I have seen in both of them the elitism being
taught in the colleges and universities today.

–
Matt Furness 85XJS-HE 5 Speed Manual
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89

In reply to a message from CJ95 sent Tue 28 Oct 2014:

‘’…the tensioner for the I6 engine, same year, lists for
$46. THAT says it all.’’

All an I6 comparison says is that chalk is different from
cheese. The two-bolt external fit plunger was used in
basically the same form from 87 to 97 and can be changed
in ten minutes with one wrench. Seems they learned
something at least, eh? :slight_smile:

So comparing costs says precisely nothing of any relevance
to the V12. To paraphrase one of your earlier phrases:
‘‘you’ve clearly never changed that tensioner’’. I may be as
wrong as you were, of course.

Actually, I suppose it could be used as ‘character
witness’ evidence that Jaguar are not price gougers,
otherwise they’d charge a highway robbery $300,
presumably.–
1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
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90

In reply to a message from MattFurness sent Tue 28 Oct 2014:

Matt, thank you she has worked hard toward this moment and
yes they are presently working on their senior project. They
were having trouble procuring a machine shop in Charlotte
where the school is located so I introduced her to a small
machine shop owner here locally that was more then happy to
do some CNC work for them.

She would love to stay in the aviation field as she was in
aviation maintenance while in the navy. She has interviewed
with Rolls, they have a contract to refurbish some engines
that powered the planes she maintained in the navy.

My comment alluding to the elitist attitude is a general
statement and yes I am full aware that everyone doesn’t fit
that mold. I have however seen it first hand dealing with
our educated professionals in today’s society. Both of my
daughters are well grounded and haven’t developed that
attitude, growing up in my body shop they have witnessed
that mentality first hand at an early age. They also know
the battles I have fought not having that piece of parchment
hanging on the wall.

I have on two occasions since 03 when I found this site
asked the question of how much do your services cost the
public. I have yet to get an answer. There are so many
people today that think they are supposed to be payed well
for their services but everyone else should be payed
peanuts. If everyone spent their money like they expect to
be payed when paying for products or services we wouldn’t
have people working for poverty wages in today’s society.

I’ll get off my soapbox now.Once again thank you for the
congrats.–
The original message included these comments:

Your Mechanical Engineer daughter (congratulations to
her!!) will soon realise she can not create her designs
and is part of a team. This will happen sooner than later.
Then she will understand and appreciate the variety of
skills and attributes in the engineering world… And her
outlook will adjust a bit…!!

–
1988 xjs Cabriolet
Mocksville NC, United States
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91

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Tue 28 Oct 2014:

I’ve dealt with some of these ‘‘log’’ bearings. I hear what
you are saying…but I have seen many that are able to be
broken down. It all depends whether they are crimped or
lock-ringed together. I’ll let everyone know what I find.
It sounds like worst case Grainger will have something to
adapt.–
The original message included these comments:

and see if repacking the bearing is an option.
This isn’t a bicycle. It’s a permanently sealed bearing cartridge.
It’s exactly the same as zillions of other bearing cartridges for
water pumps for American V8’s except that the ends of the shaft
differ in length and diameter, where the pulley and the impeller are
pressed on. So, if the correct bearing is truly NLA, there are two
other possibilities:

–
John. '95 XJS 6.0L convertible. Southlake, TX
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92

In reply to a message from CJ95 sent Wed 29 Oct 2014:

First part of the lot, the timing chain, arrived today.
Interesting…

The Federal Mogul timing chain is boxed in Jaguar packaging, with a
sticker that says ‘‘Made in Italy For Jaguar’’. When I opened it,
the sealed package holding the chain has a stamp ‘‘Made in India’’.
It doesn’t look terrible, but it also doesn’t look terribly
robust. Is there some way to tell decent chain from garbage?–
John. '95 XJS 6.0L convertible. Southlake, TX
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93

In reply to a message from CJ95 sent Thu 30 Oct 2014:

Must be the Rolon chain (google it), repackaged somewhere as
a Jag item.
I come across the same oddities all the, irrespective of the
vendor.
Not long ago, I got the OEM Jag bearings for my rear hub.
The vendor, in Michigan, is well known within this circle.

I should have gotten the Moog locally, but decide to pay a
few extra bucks and get the nicely packaged OEM item. Well,
the bearings that came were asian.

I returned them, ordered the Moog item and when it arrived -

  • made in Poland.

My point – it is a global economy. You’ll never know what
you are getting until you open the box.

Steve
PS I am sorry I cannot comment on the quality–
The original message included these comments:

The Federal Mogul timing chain is boxed in Jaguar packaging, with a
sticker that says ‘‘Made in Italy For Jaguar’’. When I opened it,
the sealed package holding the chain has a stamp ‘‘Made in India’’.
It doesn’t look terrible, but it also doesn’t look terribly
robust. Is there some way to tell decent chain from garbage?

–
'95 XJS convertible - V12 6.0L
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94

In reply to a message from sbobev sent Thu 30 Oct 2014:

This is a direct result of the ‘‘we want to buy it cheaper’’
attitude the majority of consumers have today, add the we
expect our companies we own stock in to out perform everyone
else’s attitude and this is what you get.

If you think this is frustrating from a hobbist perspective
you should try making your living in the industry and having
to sort through the garbage some companies sale as quality
parts.

Little late now but for those following this thread a
business associate who owns a Carquest franchise (not many
of those around most are company owned)commented couple
years back that Carquest bought ‘‘world parts’’ think that’s
right and that they were top of the line parts distributors
for import car parts. Don’t know how Advance Auto’s purchase
of Carquest has impacted that fact though.–
The original message included these comments:

Not long ago, I got the OEM Jag bearings for my rear hub.
The vendor, in Michigan, is well known within this circle.
I should have gotten the Moog locally, but decide to pay a
few extra bucks and get the nicely packaged OEM item. Well,
the bearings that came were asian.
I returned them, ordered the Moog item and when it arrived -

  • made in Poland.
    My point – it is a global economy. You’ll never know what
    you are getting until you open the box.

–
1988 xjs Cabriolet
Mocksville NC, United States
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95

In reply to a message from sbobev sent Thu 30 Oct 2014:

The chain has ‘‘AE’’ stamped on each link. I think I’ll
take it to Grainger to compare with what they have.
Michigan…you picked it! That and the distributor cap
gasket is all I ordered from them.

Now, I know this is out of character, but I’m about to
give Jag a compliment. I spent today cleaning and boxing
up the accessories (that means I’m counting on this being
an extended job). I have to say, the cast aluminum
mounting brackets and threaded belt tensioners are both
substantial and classy. Once cleaned and shined, they are
very impressive!

Has anyone taken apart the '95 alternator? I did to clean
it and wondered about the rear bearing. It appears to be
crimped permanently into the housing. Is that the case or
is there a trick to removal?–
The original message included these comments:

Not long ago, I got the OEM Jag bearings for my rear hub.
The vendor, in Michigan, is well known within this circle.

–
John. '95 XJS 6.0L convertible. Southlake, TX
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96

The Federal Mogul timing chain is boxed in Jaguar packaging, with a
sticker that says ‘‘Made in Italy For Jaguar’’. When I opened it, the
sealed package holding the chain has a stamp ‘‘Made in India’’.

I suspect the chain itself was made in India – which, BTW, is not
necessarily a bad thing. Remember, Jaguar is an Indian company now.
But the bulk chain was shipped to Italy where they broke it into the
correct length for the Jag and possibly made a loop out of it – or
not, I dunno if you got a loop or not.

Is
there some way to tell decent chain from garbage?

I don’t believe so – unless it’s something obvious, like the rollers
have little splits in them indicating they were made by rolling up
sheet metal rather than cutting tubing. AFAIK, the difference
between a good chain and a garbage chain is metallurgy, and you can’t
tell that by looking at it.

Dumb question: Is there a Federal Mogul logo on the chain itself?

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 30 Oct 2014 at 13:35, CJ95 wrote:

97

In reply to a message from CJ95 sent Thu 30 Oct 2014:

John
I had the same problem when I ordered the continuous chain
from a US supplier. It was ‘‘Made in India’’ and had a
joiner link.
I sent it back and bought the right amount of links from a
local transmission chain supplier with a joiner link.
I would recommend ‘‘Renold’’ or ‘‘Tsubaki’’ as well known
suppliers and if the chain has their branding on it it is
‘‘probably’’ going to meet all the engineering
specifications regardless of where it is made. These are
reputable industrial suppliers.
You’ll be pleasantly surprised at the price too.
I think the original chain was a ‘‘Renold’’…
Regards
Matt–
The original message included these comments:

The chain has ‘‘AE’’ stamped on each link. I think I’ll

–
Matt Furness 85XJS-HE 5 Speed Manual
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98

In reply to a message from CJ95 sent Thu 30 Oct 2014:

  1. the chain is branded -a good start.
  2. AE are a big brand who were IEM back in the day, if
    it’s the same crowd - pistons, shells, rings springs etc.
    I’d trust it.–
    1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
    Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
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99

In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Fri 31 Oct 2014:

Thanks Kirbert, Matt, and Pete. It’s funny, but I didn’t make the
connection that Jag is Indian owned now!

I studied what I could find online…AE appears to be a reputable
supplier. I saw more than one post that Reynolds is out of the
chain business. I even googled AE and Federal Mogul ‘‘sucks’’, and
nothing came back. If there are problems, usually that’ll find a
wealth of information.

So, it’s likely a decent chain…I’ll still try to compare to
others before I install it, though.

Thanks again!–
John. '95 XJS 6.0L convertible. Southlake, TX
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100

In reply to a message from CJ95 sent Fri 31 Oct 2014:

John
One too many '‘y’'s in your Reynold!!
Matt–
The original message included these comments:

supplier. I saw more than one post that Reynolds is out of the

–
Matt Furness 85XJS-HE 5 Speed Manual
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