[v12-engine] Pre-HE to HE conversion

I’m in the process of rebuilding the V12 of my '73 E-type
which seized a bearing.

I could not understand WHY it would have done that until I
started cleaning the sump and removed the baffles in order
to clean inside. The evidence of some PO bashing the sump
was found in the baffles which were all scrunched up. He
then must have driven the car without oil for some distance
(damaging the bearings), replaced the sump and then sold the
car to me or another PO.

I found 11.5:1 pistons on Ebay and I had the HE heads so I
decided to re-build it as an HE (whilst retaining the
original engine no FWIW)

One of the E-type sleeves was cracked at the bottom (why???)
and this was replaced with a sleeve from a scrap HE donor
engine, which also donated the crank.

A few pics here:

http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1294775138

Best regards
Philip–
My website: www.jaguardiy.net
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In reply to a message from jagwit sent Tue 11 Jan 2011:

Philip:

You should be pleased with the results. You’ll notice the HE
just responds to throttle inputs more quickly at lower engine
speeds (and gets better fuel milage). Be sure to install an HE
distributor or at least the mechanical/vacuum advances from one.–
The original message included these comments:

I found 11.5:1 pistons on Ebay and I had the HE heads so I
decided to re-build it as an HE (whilst retaining the
original engine no FWIW)


Don 74 SII XJ12L
Port Colborne, Ontario, Canada
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In reply to a message from jagwit sent Tue 11 Jan 2011:

OH you’ll wish you hadn’t…
The HE was designed to reduce emmissions and increase fuel mileage
not increase performance…
Proof of that is every racing Jaguar races with the earlier
heads…
Max Horsepower of a fully modified HE engine is around 400 Hp
while it’s relatively easy to get over 650 with the flat heads…

People think the high compression gains them stuff . Well it’s the
only way the lousy HE head works…
I’ve built 13-1 compression on a flat head engine. I’ve also made
street versions with 9.5 to one compression… (ran fine on pump
grade gasolene)…
Don’t feel bad, I doubt one Jaguar owner in 1000 really
understands the engine even if they’ve rebuilt one themselves…
If people did really understand the car would sell used for a
whole lot more than it does now…–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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In reply to a message from MGuar sent Wed 12 Jan 2011:

I think jagwit may understands the Jag V12 just fine sure more
power is to be had from a modified flat head but thats were it ends
for street use the H.E wins hands down. All its gains are at part
throttle and mid range just what you need or use on the road plus
better economy to boot.
Nick–
The original message included these comments:

OH you’ll wish you hadn’t…
The HE was designed to reduce emmissions and increase fuel mileage
not increase performance…
Proof of that is every racing Jaguar races with the earlier
heads…
Don’t feel bad, I doubt one Jaguar owner in 1000 really
understands the engine even if they’ve rebuilt one themselves…
If people did really understand the car would sell used for a


Nick Morland 86XJ-S 88XJS56.0L5spd 73xj6 91VdP 97XK8cvt
Scotts Valley Ca, United States
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In reply to a message from konrads sent Wed 12 Jan 2011:

Yep, I’m well aware that the flat heads holds more potential
for all-out power but I went for the HE primarily for the
better economy with ‘‘normal’’ driving. (Can driving an
E-type - in any way - be ‘‘normal’’ ??)

Anyway, I’m also hoping for more torque 1000rpm - 4000rpm
compliments of the higher compression. Although, we’ll have
to see what the effect of the Fidanza lightweight flywheel
will be…

There will be no distributor on this engine. Its been fuel
injected and I’m running dual EDIS-6 distributorless
ignition systems, all controlled via Megasquirt.

Best regards
Philip–
My website: www.jaguardiy.net
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In reply to a message from jagwit sent Thu 13 Jan 2011:

HE heads do not flow air as well. (and forcing air up into the
exhaust valve chamber ruins the benefits of the Heron head design
the V12 was designed for)…
The mileage gain will be trival and only a tiny bit less if the
flat heads and proper 9.5 pistons used. Yes your fuel injection
will work.
Flatheads have far less potential to blow their gaskets than HE
engines do.
What happens is due to the HE design. They are burning as lean a
fuel air ratio as possible… that’s what gains them mileage Their
are transition points such as after a high speed run when you are
only slightly feathering the throttle for a curve and then you nail
it as you exit the corner… Briefly the engine is too lean and
that causes preignition which is the real cause of most blown head
gaskets…
If you are absolutely committed to using the HE heads (to be
fair they are cleaner burning than the flathead and produce
slightly less polution) please spend a few minutes to modify the
water rail to limit water output in the front cylinders… When you
have that water rail off one side you will notice that all four
water holes are the same size. You will also notice that the total
of those water holes is greater than the diameter of the tube used
to carry hot water from the engine… What happens is water flows
through the easiest path.
Now look at where the temp sender is…
If water can flow easily through the front two holes the back 2
holes the water is far more stagnant. What do you think the water
temp would read if we measured it at the back clyinders. You can
even check that yourself… Take the car out for a hard run stop,
open the hood and measure temps at both the back and front of the
engine… (I use a cheap($46) hand held lazor temp gauge I bought,
reads instantly) I’ve found some really big differances and that’s
after I get stopped and open the hood which allows water to mix
andcool down. …–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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What happens is due to the HE design. They are burning as lean a
fuel air ratio as possible… that’s what gains them mileage Their
are transition points such as after a high speed run when you are
only slightly feathering the throttle for a curve and then you nail
it as you exit the corner… Briefly the engine is too lean and
that causes preignition which is the real cause of most blown head
gaskets…


MGuar------------------------------------------------------------------------

It should not happen.
The fuelling table will have a pulse width for the RPM and vacuum
point you request when you open the throttle.
This is for steady state conditions.

The TPS senses you pressing the pedal hard and increases the injector pulse
width for this transient condition.

In aftermarket EFI systems you can often take the default setting or
create your own response table for the TPS.

If the system also controls ignition it can retard the ignition at the
same time.

I think Jaguar would have created a suitable response for the HE
engine, otherwise it would obviously stumble if you wacked the throttle open.
Even so the EFI system has to work hard to cater for a situation when
you are crawling at low speed and suddenly plant your foot.
That can catch my convertible and sophisticated XJ350 wrong footed at
times, maybe because they are trying to change down a gear while adjusting
for a major change in engine operating point at the same time.

If you are already at high speed and/or high RPM on closed throttle
with a manual box then go suddenly to WOT it is not such a major transition.

Richard Dowling, Melbourne, Australia.
1979 XJ-S coupe + HE V12 + 5 speed, 1988 XJ-S V12 convertible, 2003 XJ350

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In reply to a message from MGuar sent Thu 13 Jan 2011:

I mentioned in another posting about milage that mine went up
from 10.9 imp mpg to 13.1 mpg by modifying my engine to HE spec.
Now, I’m not considered any math whiz, but, that is about a 20
percent increase in range. Significant on a street driven car.

Absolutely agree with the water rail work. That’s my next project
before spring.–
The original message included these comments:

The mileage gain will be trival and only a tiny bit less if the
flat heads and proper 9.5 pistons used. Yes your fuel injection
will work.
slightly less polution) please spend a few minutes to modify the
water rail to limit water output in the front cylinders… When you
have that water rail off one side you will notice that all four
water holes are the same size. You will also notice that the total
of those water holes is greater than the diameter of the tube used
to carry hot water from the engine… What happens is water flows
through the easiest path.
Now look at where the temp sender is…


Don 74 SII XJ12L
Port Colborne, Ontario, Canada
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In reply to a message from Richard Dowling sent Thu 13 Jan 2011:

It should not happen…
Actually it doesn’t except on a very limited circumstances… (as I
mentioned)
If you know what to look for you can find signs of preignition on
the spark plugs… Few ever bother to look because a blown head
gasket is such an obvious thing…
What happens in your XJ350 is differant than what happens with
the HE engine… Your XJ 350’s computer was designed to provide
correct fueling at all times. It does it not by starting out ultra
lean like the HE is but putting the correct amount of fuel for the
conditions…
That’s the flaw in the HE engine… they are trying to make an
engine run extremely lean in a vain attempt to improve mileage…
Think of the V12 as 1.5 times a V8 so it has 50% more friction and
50% more surface area to cover etc… (oops, the math is wrong.
Call it 33.33333…% more) Not only that but the pollution
potential is also 33% more. It is true fuel not used is not going
to pollute. That ultimately was the driving force behind the HE.
That V12 would have a terrible time meeting California’s smog laws
unless something serious was done about fuel consumption… Since
California accounts for such a large percentage of Jagaurs sales
It drives the engineering rather than the rest of the world.
Feathering throttle does not call for immediate throttle response
so it can remain extremely lean… Not every thing made is exactly
the same Some cars are on the lean side while others are on the
rich side…If the car is on the lean side under feathering throttle
that’s when preignition occurs…
If it doesn’t occur with yours perhaps your car isn’t on the lean
side?–
The original message included these comments:

It should not happen.
This is for steady state conditions.
The TPS senses you pressing the pedal hard and increases the injector pulse
width for this transient condition.


MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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Donald Fox wrote:

I mentioned in another posting about milage that mine went up
from 10.9 imp mpg to 13.1 mpg by modifying my engine to HE spec.

If you’ve got an H.E. engine and you’re getting less than 16mpg (US
gallons), there’s something wrong.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Donald Fox sent Fri 14 Jan 2011:

Donald Fox.
Please take this the right way… Your choice is OK for you and I’m
not condenming you for it. I simply want to point out another
choice. OK?
I’ll accept your 20% increase… Now the critical question is. How
much will that really save you? Many of us drive our Jaguars only
on nice weekends or not even then…They are rarely daily drivers…
Plus You’re still in the gas hog range…
Second, None of us bought Jagaurs because of good fuel mileage.
We bought them because of performance.
Now I will freely admit I’m way on the left side of the
performance scale… Darn few Jagaur owners are racers like me…
However I suspect in the performance fuel mileage trade off most
prefer the performance side and are willing to trade some mileage
to get it…
Finally I can improve mileage on almost any Jagaur I check by 10%
or more simply by cleaning injectors, reducing fuel pressure a
little bit or tweeking the throttle linkage. (It’s really finicky
to get throttle linkage correct) reducing back pressure on the
exhaust side or doing 1/2 dozen semi legal things to the car.
I’m not talking about poorly running cars I’m talking about smooth
running nice drivers…–
The original message included these comments:

I mentioned in another posting about milage that mine went up
from 10.9 imp mpg to 13.1 mpg by modifying my engine to HE spec.


MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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What happens in your XJ350 is differant than what happens with
the HE engine… Your XJ 350’s computer was designed to provide
correct fueling at all times. It does it not by starting out ultra
lean like the HE is but putting the correct amount of fuel for the
conditions…
That’s the flaw in the HE engine… they are trying to make an
engine run extremely lean in a vain attempt to improve mileage…

MGuar--------------------------------------------------------------------------

But is that true ?

The ideal A/F ratio for maximum economy is around 1.05 lambda, that is
5% excess air.
In cruise the ECU fitted to 5.3L HE engines looks at the response of
narrow band lambda sensors, which only indicate the transition around
1.0 lambda.
Hence the ECU is continually adjusting the A/F a few percent above and
below 1.0 lambda to keep an average of 1.0.
In fact with a bit more software it could err on the side of lean and
average it out 2 or 3 % above 1.0 but that might not make a really
significant difference to economy.

Any ECU made in the last 30 years or so could also do that.
The pre HE system did not have the lambda sensor feedback.

There is no flaw in the HE, Jaguar went for a high CR to improve
economy since in theory the higher the CR the more power you extract
from a given amount of heat energy.
However there are a number of drawbacks to high CR. It is not my area
of expertise, but it seems that with high CR the spread of the flame
front after a spark ignition event is more complicated.
It becomes even more complicated if the mixture is not on the rich
side of 1.0, and this makes pre ignition more likely.

The May head design enabled high CRs, 11.5 and 12.5, to be tolerated
in cruise mode with a mixture around 1.0.
You still need fuel with a decent octane to make it work.
This improved economy, especially with a 2.88 diff, and did not put a
big dent in maximum power or acceleration. The result was a much
better proposition for selling V12 cars in an era when high fuel
consumption is frowned upon or legislated out of existence.

The HE does not run extremely lean, but only around stoichiometric ( 1.0. ) in cruise.
Probably no different to the majority of cars with EFI systems made in the last 30 years.
I seriously doubt the HE fuelling is anywhere near lean when the
driver gets out of cruise mode.

Since then engine management technology has moved on a lot, driven to
a large extent by electronic hardware and software.
Consider: My XJ350 has a much better way of pumping fuel for the engine
demand. There is no return line, the ECU calculates exactly how much
fuel is needed from various driver input and feedback signals, and
delivers it to the fuel rails. That is software intensive.

This engine runs a CR of 11.0 and will tolerate fuel with lower
octane because it has sensors and management to detect pre ignition
and back off to prevent damage.
With only 3.5L, an alloy body and a 6 speed box it is quite lively and economical.
It does not stand out from the crowd like an XJ-S of course, or even like the XJ6 & XJ12.

In principle the XJ350 has the same technique as the HE for fuelling.
The HE does not start out by running ultra lean, it starts with a fuel map
same as the XJ350 but perhaps more on the rich side for safety. In
cruise it will let lambda feedback override the fuel map to achieve 1.0.

The XJ350 can run closer to maximum economy over a much wider range of
engine operating points since it has more sensors and much more software.
It also has to meet stringent emission limits which can mean operating
away from maximum economy over parts of the operating range - even more software.

Richard Dowling, Melbourne, Australia.
1979 XJ-S coupe + HE V12 + 5 speed, 1988 XJ-S V12 convertible, 2003 XJ350

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In reply to a message from Richard Dowling sent Fri 14 Jan 2011:

Things get really complicated when you mix theory, smog laws, and
marketing together.
The whole purpose of the May head was to allow extremely lean
mixtures to fire. Jaguar’s own advertising in the era and several
engineering reports state that… Approx. 15.5-1 ratio instead of
the 14.6 which is ideal (stoichiometric).
The flaw of the may head is it destroys the hemispherical
combustion chamber of the heron head… Energy is wasted filling the
recessed chamber of the exhaust valve before driving the piston
down… The compression ratio increase was an attempt to offset
those losses. not to gain efficency… The compression increase
further compromised the combustion chamber shape…
If you are willing to trade off either octane requirements or
timing gains higher compression is a proven power enhancement.
The fact that new engines do not use the Mayhead design should
be sufficent proof that it was a compromise born out of
desperation. It was retained because there was insufficent profit
available to invest in a proper development.
Further proof of the ineffective nature of the May head is the
fact that none of the subsequent race cars used it even after it
was available.
Plus the lack of normal power gains over the life if the
V12.Look at any engine series. over 25 years the power gains of the
V12 were absolutely nominal if equaled out. Put 11.5/12.5
compression ratios on the very first engine and up date it with the
modern Fuel injection and you will find an actaul improvement in
horsepower… More so then the May head will produce…–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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Plus the lack of normal power gains over the life if the
V12.Look at any engine series. over 25 years the power gains of the
V12 were absolutely nominal if equaled out. Put 11.5/12.5
compression ratios on the very first engine and up date it with the
modern Fuel injection and you will find an actaul improvement in
horsepower… More so then the May head will produce…

MGuar----------------------------------------------------------------------

One thing about engines always strikes me as odd.
With countless millions of engines made last century it was never easy
to see into a head and directly watch the combustion process.
If you could make transparent heads then you could use high speed cine
cameras, a relatively old technology, to see what happens.
So to a large extent it was suck it and see to develop head and piston
designs. The May head was probably the best you could do in 1980
to extract more economy from a 10 year old V12 design.
More so if you had to get quick results with minimum expenditure on
experiment and retooling.

Modern fuel injection in principle is the same as the early pre HE system.
You use manifold vacuum and RPM to determine by experiment what the
injection pulse width will be to give optimum fueling.
That gives you a fuel map for the engine.
The optimum varies depending on the target being maximum power or
maximum economy.

Could you really put 11.5/12.5 CR on the old design of head and make a
more powerful/economical engine ?
It might be possible with a piston redesign, but it probably will only
work well over a restricted range of operating conditions.
Even with Jaguar’s limited resources they must have considered it and
concluded it was not a proposition.

They did have lots of experience in engine design and could call on
many other experts in engine design and fuel technology if needed.
Modern fuel injection systems would help, and perhaps allow tolerable
performance with 11.5/12.5, but so many other areas of technology have
changed we can only speculate.

The May design was a solution to a problem at the time, not a flaw.

The passage of time suggests better solutions.
In this day and age I am sure you can use software plus laboratory
experiments to simulate combustion in a cylinder head to a high degree
of accuracy. That lets an engineer experiment easily with head and
piston design, plus cam design, timing and octane rating before you
start casting and machining metal.

New sensors, cheap electronics and lots of software have pushed the
envelope a lot further than the 1980s. That is what makes modern fuel
injection work better.
It can monitor more variables and calculate more accurate fueling over
a wide range of operating conditions.
In addition it has enabled small diesels to compete with a blend of
excellent economy and decent power.

Richard Dowling, Melbourne, Australia.
1979 XJ-S coupe + HE V12 + 5 speed, 1988 XJ-S V12 convertible, 2003 XJ350

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Richard,

I still don’t think it is at all common. Certain research centres seem to be
able to capture combustion events using laser imaging or something. There
was an article recently that suggested that Ford was travelling to race
teams to clamp on some kind of gear to help them optimise fuel / air flow
etc. I think there are electronic ignition systems that can provide feedback
on combustion pressure, but they cost a small fortune and so are only used
in high end dyno facilities.

Although the software is trying to get there, I am not sure it is there yet.
The thermodynamic modelling is only as good as your understanding of the
problem (and the ability to therefore mathematically define it). It is
getting close and people are foolish to discount it, but I suspect it is
able to guide, not solve, some of these challenges.

The question I have been waiting for someone to ask is “When is someone
going to use direct injection on this V12 head, and if they do, what gains
should we expect”.

I note that Bosch are now offering for sale an aftermarket direction
injection kit that can work with 3rd part ECU’s (along with there own). Not
sure the price, but they seemed to think it wasn’t too much more than normal
injectors, but you need a specialised fuel pump plus “amplifiers” to drive
the injectors.

I have a pair of old experimental heads which have holes drilled downwards
to each exhaust valve (for thermocouple measurement of exhaust
temperatures), which might make an interesting conversion. However, from
what I can see, most manufacturers are injecting almost horizontally from
under the exhasut port into the cylinder bore, firing at the inlet valve, I
think.

Not sure what the common wisdom is, but I think there is something like a
15% gain to be had, either in economy or power.

Rgds
Mark

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I understand the May head was in response to the ‘Big Gas Crisis’ of the early '70’s…to save sales of the V12…to go along with the final drive of the Series Three.
For economy, rather than horsepower, and “emissions” had a lot to do with it.

They promised 27 mpg at 55 mph (US) and they got it.
‘100 K’ results in about the same, for that matter…

Then we didn’t care for a while…now we care again;… my car will still do it (I think, who does steady 55 long enough to tell?).

Bill
Alaska
'86 v12 vdP Canadian modelOn Jan 16, 2011, at 1:31 PM, Richard Dowling wrote:

Put 11.5/12.5
compression ratios on the very first engine and up date it with the
modern Fuel injection and you will find an actaul improvement in
horsepower… More so then the May head will produce…

MGuar


The May head was probably the best you could do in 1980
to extract more economy from a 10 year old V12 design.
More so if you had to get quick results with minimum expenditure on
experiment and retooling.

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In reply to a message from MGuar sent Fri 14 Jan 2011:

I agree 100 % with everything you say.
My main requirements are reliability and good low
speed running up to about 60 mph. My setup works fine
in these situations and it is my choice. As far as being
a gas hog; no surprise there and it is my particular
driving style that results in 13.1 mpg. I could probably
change that to get an improvement, but, that’s not going
to happen.–
The original message included these comments:

Please take this the right way… Your choice is OK for you and I’m
not condenming you for it. I simply want to point out another
choice. OK?
I’ll accept your 20% increase… Now the critical question is. How
much will that really save you? Many of us drive our Jaguars only
on nice weekends or not even then…They are rarely daily drivers…
Plus You’re still in the gas hog range…


Don 74 SII XJ12L
Port Colborne, Ontario, Canada
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Donald Fox wrote:

As far as being
a gas hog; no surprise there and it is my particular
driving style that results in 13.1 mpg. I could probably
change that to get an improvement, but, that’s not going
to happen.

Is this an H.E. engine? And are you keeping it under 120 mph on
average? If so, it’s not your driving style, there’s something wrong
with it. Those of us who really hammer those things get 16 mpg US or
better. Those who baby them get around 20.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Thu 20 Jan 2011:

There is nothing wrong with the engine. As I mentioned in the
thread about fuel economy on the xj forum, 13.1 is my average
mpg measured over a year (well 3 seasons) of driving while
recording the fuel used at fill ups and the indicated milage.
What mpg the car gets at steady high speeds, I have no idea.
No computer. But I’m sure it would be a fair bit higher–
The original message included these comments:

average? If so, it’s not your driving style, there’s something wrong
with it. Those of us who really hammer those things get 16 mpg US or
better. Those who baby them get around 20.


Don 74 SII XJ12L
Port Colborne, Ontario, Canada
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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Thu 20 Jan 2011:

Kirby,
Don’t forget part of Jaguar’s sleight of hand was going from a 3.56
to 2.88 differential in the US market. For converted etype engines,
the donor car may not have this boost to credit against the HE.
Offsetting this, the etype is much lighter car than the XJS. I
wouldn’t assume a Lucas 16cu is fitted either.

I agree that 13mpg still sounds low, however it was derived.

kind regards
Marek–
MarekH
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